Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 27, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 27, 2014 A thought has occurred to me that may explain my perspective. Lack of understanding should cause us to take a cautious approach, being slow to condemn or condone. This may look like many things to other people, but I think it is linked to mercy. EGW speaks of it as Christian or Christ like forbearance. Take a look at what she says on that subject. It is a real source of unity. And on this topic, there are few who really understand. Kevin H 1 Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 27, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2014 http://www.westword.com/1995-11-22/news/come-to-jesus/ For the story of the SDA Church and Colin Cook, see the above URL It is frank and explicit, Be prepared. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 27, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2014 Many of those who read what is posted on the URL that I have posted above will be offended by the content. Be prepared if you access it. I will suggest that there are important lessons in that material. In my thinking, it should be read by those who consider the issue of homosexual change. The material was published in WESTWORD, which is a counter-culture publication. But, the fact remains that it does award winning investigative journalism that is often not done by the traditional press. It should not be dismissed. In my thinking the experience of the SDA Church with Colin Cook illustrates the issues that are faced with the idea that homosexuality can be changed--not just behavorial change. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 27, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2014 Kevin has listed some important URLs which give some valuable information related to homosexual change groups, their founders and the SDA Church. One of them mentions Ronald Lawson who is an important scholar who has written a number of scholarly works about the SDA Church. I consider him to be quite valuable in what the has written about the SDA Church in Germany during the time of Hitler. Unfortunately I cannot find that on the Internet. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 27, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2014 And that will be the most merciful thing to do. Mercy does not force repentance. I think we err when we bind forgiveness and repentance. God forgives. We are to repent. God never fails to forgive, for He has already forgiven before we even know it or respond. We may refuse to turn around and accept it. Err? If forgiveness is not the possession of the sinner until the sinner accepts it by repentance, how can you say they should not be bound together? And is it your position that in the case of homosexuality, God has "given in" and will admit into heaven even those who continue to cling to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 27, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2014 This question has crossed my mind countless times - is there any sin that the gospel gives no power to overcome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 27, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2014 To overcome relates to behavior. Behavior can be changed. Orientation may not be changeable and there is no evidence that homosexuality can be normally be changed as a condition. Having the condition is not a sin. A friend of mine gave up the use of tobacco. Yet there was never a day in which he did not desire a smoke. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 27, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2014 I am coming from a perspective of having seen what a few of my childhood friends went through as we went through our teenaged years and I'd notice women but they noticed others. And this mixed with having studied about the Bible and Biblical history and the contexts of the verses. We are living in a world of hurt people. Jesus' criticisms tended to be towards people who thought that they needed to focus on the supposed sins of others and give impossible standards to them if they wanted to be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 27, 2014 Members Share Posted October 27, 2014 http://www.westword.com/1995-11-22/news/come-to-jesus/ For the story of the SDA Church and Colin Cook, see the above URL It is frank and explicit, Be prepared. the article is from 1995... is Colin Cook still an SDA? (I see he is now 74 y/o and lives in Englewood, CO) Is he still engaged in his reprehensible "counseling" as described in the article? (his "counseling" business is now listed as "FaithQuest Perspectives" in Littleton, CO) Does the SDA church still endorse his tactics? From what I read, I'm flabbergasted that he's not in jail... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 27, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 27, 2014 Err? If forgiveness is not the possession of the sinner until the sinner accepts it by repentance, how can you say they should not be bound together? And is it your position that in the case of homosexuality, God has "given in" and will admit into heaven even those who continue to cling to it? Read what I posted earlier: A thought has occurred to me that may explain my perspective. Lack of understanding should cause us to take a cautious approach, being slow to condemn or condone. This may look like many things to other people, but I think it is linked to mercy. EGW speaks of it as Christian or Christ like forbearance. Take a look at what she says on that subject. It is a real source of unity. And on this topic, there are few who really understand. Gerry, you are reading too much into what I have said or simply not understanding it. I am willing and comfortable in saying I do not know what God is going to do in the end about this issue. What disturbs me greatly is that too many folk are adamant and absolutely certain of exactly what He will do, burn them all in hellfire. As if they know the mind of God! But I see it more of a situation of them really wanting to tell God what He must do. I don't know and I am not going to try to turn God's head on this. I trust Him to do the right thing. And whatever He does, I know I will understand it as a perfectly divine solution that I will accept and understand. In the meantime, we must learn to live with broken and flawed people that God is not done with yet. That requires much grace for us, call it mercy, call it tolerance, or whatever. In the end how we treat anyone matters far more than what they do about it. We are told to love one another and not judge each other. On the forgiveness and repentance issue, the binding them together by saying that we are not forgiven until we repent, or that forgiveness is conditioned or dependent on our repentance misrepresents the character of God and places us in a potentially dangerous posture of "earning" our forgiveness by our own effort of repentance. It is a human problem that we refuse to forgive someone until they apologize and often still withhold our full forgiveness until we see evidence they have changed their ways. You know how it goes when someone slips up again after we have "forgiven" them. It is easy to react that we knew they didn't really mean it and forgiveness gets harder the next time and so on until we ask Jesus, "How many times do I really have to forgive, seven times?" God has already forgiven before we ever even think to repent. My repentance doe not turn on the flow of grace. It simply opens up my own ability to receive what is already there, just waiting to be accepted. Kevin H and JoeMo 2 Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 This question has crossed my mind countless times - is there any sin that the gospel gives no power to overcome? God can do anything He pleases. God can give us victory over anything He pleases. But God does not always please. How do I know? I have asked Him and He has said no or wait. It is ONLY God who can give victory. All God comes from God. If we receive victory .... it is indeed from Him. But again ... not everyone receives victory. And contrary to popular thought --- it is not necessarily the fault of the sinner - that victory has not been given by God. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 When we look at people through the eyes of God, we see that everyone is broken in one way or another; at God loves us all anyways; and accepts all of us into the Family if we want to be there. Once we are sons and daughters, He begins teaching us the family values and the family business. Some of us learn more quickly than others. I'm OK with being a slow learner; I'm still in the Family! Tom Wetmore and Woody 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 28, 2014 Members Share Posted October 28, 2014 http://www.westword.com/1995-11-22/news/come-to-jesus/ For the story of the SDA Church and Colin Cook, see the above URL It is frank and explicit, Be prepared. Gregory thanks for this link. The article was very interesting. Just for the record, Colin Cook is the guy I used to know. He wasn't anything like I read in that article. But than I haven't seen him since 1973. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 28, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 28, 2014 Pam, Colin Cook is not supported in his counseling in any manner by the SDA Church. This came about because of the WESTWORD article which I cited and in addition the Denver Post article which I did not cite as I consider it to have primarily based upon the WESTWORD article. I do not know as to what Cook's personal relationship is with the SDA Church. Based upon my understanding of the law, Cook did not do anything that could reasonably resulted in criminal prosecution. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 If God is so loving so as to "give in" to homosexuality, is He not loving enough to also "give in" to drunkards, drug addicts, compulsive gossipers, and serial murderers? It never fails to amaze me how homosexuality gets lumped in there with those........ The air up there on the high horse of the "non-sinners" must be pretty sweet. But the view looking down the nose at others is always a little obstructed....... Johann, Kevin H, JoeMo and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 28, 2014 Members Share Posted October 28, 2014 I get very annoyed with nonprofessionals who masquerade as counselors.. Charlessr 1 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 28, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 28, 2014 It never fails to amaze me how homosexuality gets lumped in there with those........ The air up there on the high horse of the "non-sinners" must be pretty sweet. But the view looking down the nose at others is always a little obstructed....... If you read my other posts, you will find that I have made it perfectly clear that I have sins of my own that I have a very difficult time struggling with, that I'm not on a high horse as a "non-sinner" looking down on sinners who are unlike me. That is why I am raising the question that if God can "give in" to the sin of homosexuality, why should He not "give in" to mine? and that of the drunkard, the drug addict, the compulsive gossip and every other sin that others have difficulty with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 28, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 28, 2014 Colorado law allows any competent adult citizen to be a counselor under very specific boundaries. I assume that Colin Cook complied with those requirements. NOTE: I did not say that Colorado law allows anyone to be a licensed counselor. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Colin attended the same church as I.....a long time ago. Know his ex wife as well. He would teach our SS class ever so often and was always outspoken. Most everyone's view point of him was that of a very angry person, not someone you wanted to be around. Still see Colin around from time to time with a small group of people. Our class was called Saturday Morning Alive and was quite open to different opinions and topics. We had many different types of speakers and discussion leaders. At one time it was the largest class in the church. It is no longer in existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 if God can "give in" to the sin of homosexuality, why should He not "give in" to mine? and that of the drunkard, the drug addict, the compulsive gossip and every other sin that others have difficulty with? God does not "give in" to sin; He loves us in spite of our sin. He remembers our sin no more (Is 43:25, Jer. 31:34, Hebrews 8:12, Heb 10:17). Through Christ, we are reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10, 2Cor. 5:18, Col. 1:22). Do you love God/Jesus and your fellow man (e.g., gay, drunk, doper, thief, muderer, Muslim, Catholic, gossiper)? If so, your love covers a multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8) Are you forgiving and non-judgmental towards others? You will be forgiven and judged as you forgive and judge others. (Matt. 6:14, 7:1-2; Luke 6:37, Col. 3:13, James 5:9). No mystery here. All of our penalties for sin here executed upon Christ at His crucifixion. Even if we do sin (and we do), He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness. We have an Advocate with the Father. Woody and Tom Wetmore 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 We have an Advocate with the Father. However if one doesn't think they need a lawyer, they have every right to tough it out on their own. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 However if one doesn't think they need a lawyer, they have every right to tough it out on their own. Sad, but true. LifeHiscost 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 29, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2014 God does not "give in" to sin; He loves us in spite of our sin. He remembers our sin no more (Is 43:25, Jer. 31:34, Hebrews 8:12, Heb 10:17). Through Christ, we are reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10, 2Cor. 5:18, Col. 1:22). Do you love God/Jesus and your fellow man (e.g., gay, drunk, doper, thief, muderer, Muslim, Catholic, gossiper)? If so, your love covers a multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8) Are you forgiving and non-judgmental towards others? You will be forgiven and judged as you forgive and judge others. (Matt. 6:14, 7:1-2; Luke 6:37, Col. 3:13, James 5:9). No mystery here. All of our penalties for sin here executed upon Christ at His crucifixion. Even if we do sin (and we do), He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness. We have an Advocate with the Father. Okay, God loves me, and Jesus has paid the penalty. If I have all the traits you listed but somehow can't get over my pet sins and still clinging to them, am I still in? Woody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Okay, God loves me, and Jesus has paid the penalty. If I have all the traits you listed but somehow can't get over my pet sins and still clinging to them, am I still in? It's not my call, Gerry, it's God's. God looks at our hearts, not our behavior. Salvation is totally independent of behavior. Behavior modification comes by the power of grace (not your power) AFTER you are saved - not before. Do you acknowledge your sinfulness and your need of a Savior? Is Jesus that Savior? Do you have a relationship with Him (as opposed to a relationship with the church)? Do you want to be God's son and live with Him for eternity? I don't know you, but from reading your posts, it appears that you could answer "yes" to all of these questions. If so, by my understanding of scripture, you are most certainly in. But, I'm not God; only He truly knows your heart. Woody, Kevin H and Tom Wetmore 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Excellent response JoeMo Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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