Sojourner Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 It's not my call, Gerry, it's God's. God looks at our hearts, not our behavior. Salvation is totally independent of behavior. Behavior modification comes by the power of grace (not your power) AFTER you are saved - not before. Do you acknowledge your sinfulness and your need of a Savior? Is Jesus that Savior? Do you have a relationship with Him (as opposed to a relationship with the church)? Do you want to be God's son and live with Him for eternity? I don't know you, but from reading your posts, it appears that you could answer "yes" to all of these questions. If so, by my understanding of scripture, you are most certainly in. But, I'm not God; only He truly knows your heart. Yet several pro gay churches & ministries teach gay people that they have no need whatsoever to change after they are saved? There is no focus at all on any type of behaviour modification, its simply accepted and endorsed. To suggest behavioral change is considered openly wrong by these groups. I believe openly that a person can be born again and that person can lose their salvation if they choose to. You cannot have a relationship with God if you cannot walk away from it at any point by your own choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 God does not hand out victories for gay people very often. Nor does he hand out victories for other addictive handicaps very often. No one is questioning if He has the power. God can do anything He chooses. But for some reason .... we don't get much. And the task before us is to accept what He gives and love the sinner. We as a church should not be preaching that the gay person needs to obtain victory .... any more than we preach to the obese person. JoeMo 1 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 30, 2014 Members Share Posted October 30, 2014 Colin attended the same church as I.....a long time ago. Know his ex wife as well. He would teach our SS class ever so often and was always outspoken. Most everyone's view point of him was that of a very angry person, not someone you wanted to be around. Still see Colin around from time to time with a small group of people. Our class was called Saturday Morning Alive and was quite open to different opinions and topics. We had many different types of speakers and discussion leaders. At one time it was the largest class in the church. It is no longer in existence. Sorry to hear that, he was nothing like that when I knew him back in '73. Was such a nice guy, from what I've been reading about him now, it doesn't even sound like the same person. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 It's not my call, Gerry, it's God's. God looks at our hearts, not our behavior. Salvation is totally independent of behavior. Behavior modification comes by the power of grace (not your power) AFTER you are saved - not before. Do you acknowledge your sinfulness and your need of a Savior? Is Jesus that Savior? Do you have a relationship with Him (as opposed to a relationship with the church)? Do you want to be God's son and live with Him for eternity? I don't know you, but from reading your posts, it appears that you could answer "yes" to all of these questions. If so, by my understanding of scripture, you are most certainly in. But, I'm not God; only He truly knows your heart. Salvation totally independent of behavior? Really? What happened to Cain who believed in God enough to bring his offering but of the wrong kind? Saul who believed enough to save the best of the flock to give as an offering but which he was told to destroy? How about Judas? ESV | Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. And what does Jesus save us from? phkrause and LifeHiscost 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 God does not hand out victories for gay people very often. Nor does he hand out victories for other addictive handicaps very often. No one is questioning if He has the power. God can do anything He chooses. But for some reason .... we don't get much. And the task before us is to accept what He gives and love the sinner. We as a church should not be preaching that the gay person needs to obtain victory .... any more than we preach to the obese person. Soooooo, what do you tell a drunkard, a skirt chaser, a thief, a porno addict, etc., ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 @ Gerry --- To abstain from ALL sin. No need to classify one sin greater than another. Any sin (not forgiven) can keep you from heaven. For those that love Jesus .... Jesus saves us from the penalty of the sins we commit. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Dr Brown has another interesting comment some in here might like, - "I have a question for you. I began my article on the Bible and homosexuality with this paragraph: "One night I was reading the stories of people who had left the church because they thought God hated them simply because they were attracted to the same sex. I was so overcome with emotion that I put the book down, got alone in another room, fell to my knees and wept. The pain of these men and women for whom Jesus died was palpable and heartbreaking." In response, someone wrote on my website that I was lying and that this never happened, a response I've heard numerous times before. So, my question is: Why do people have such a hard time believing that you can be filled with compassion and love and still not affirm their position? (You can read the rest of the article here:http://www.charismamag.com/life/culture/21316-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality.)" Kevin H, Tom Wetmore and phkrause 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 @ Gerry --- To abstain from ALL sin. No need to classify one sin greater than another. Any sin (not forgiven) can keep you from heaven. For those that love Jesus .... Jesus saves us from the penalty of the sins we commit. Would you clarify something for me, Woody? You say, abstain from all sin, but from your previous post, you also said that we don't need to be preaching victory to gays and the obese. And since you do not believe in classifying sins, I presume it must also include all other sins that people like me are struggling with? IOW, stay away from sin, but you really don't have to gain the victory because Jesus has paid for the penalty? Is not victory available to everyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Dr Brown has another interesting comment some in here might like, - "I have a question for you. I began my article on the Bible and homosexuality with this paragraph: "One night I was reading the stories of people who had left the church because they thought God hated them simply because they were attracted to the same sex. I was so overcome with emotion that I put the book down, got alone in another room, fell to my knees and wept. The pain of these men and women for whom Jesus died was palpable and heartbreaking." In response, someone wrote on my website that I was lying and that this never happened, a response I've heard numerous times before. So, my question is: Why do people have such a hard time believing that you can be filled with compassion and love and still not affirm their position? (You can read the rest of the article here:http://www.charismamag.com/life/culture/21316-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality.)" How can you truly love a person if you affirm his/her error instead of the truth? Love has to have the backbone to confront error. And as the saying goes, God loves sinners, but He hates their sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Would you clarify something for me, Woody? You say, abstain from all sin, but from your previous post, you also said that we don't need to be preaching victory to gays and the obese. And since you do not believe in classifying sins, I presume it must also include all other sins that people like me are struggling with? IOW, stay away from sin, but you really don't have to gain the victory because Jesus has paid for the penalty? Is not victory available to everyone? I was just going to say that I agree with your post and all that is stated. But then I figured that you might need that clarified. We don't need to be preaching victory over ANY specific sins. IOWs we don't need to be pointing fingers at any individual and their specific sins. We need to speak of victory in general. But also point that if Jesus chooses not to give them victory .... that the penalty has been paid and they have the assurance of eternal life. Is victory available to everyone? Available but not necessarily given. Many times Jesus decides to let us remain in our sinful condition. He has a plan. He must show to the Universe the results of Satan's way. And we must accept His wisdom in this and look forward to Heaven where we will all have these sinful earthly desires taken away. That is the time for total victory. So .... yes He has promised victory. But not always in the timeframe we might choose. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Garry, you keep missing the point due to your prejudice. You are teaching the traditions of man as the word God. Yes, God expects us to gain victory over sin. The other sins are clear from the Bible and has a good track record of victories. But the texts that we use to call homosexuality as sins, upon closer reading appear to be talking about HETEROSEXUALS committing homosexual behavior or talking about PEDOPHILES and that if you truly want to be fair to the text of the Bible, that it could well not be talking about people who are dealing with homosexuality. However you insist on applying these texts to something that the Bible is not talking about if you read your so called "proof texts" in their actual context. This topic God has not seen fit to give the victories that we see in other sins, and a careful reading of the text does makes it difficult to see it applying beyond condemning pedophiles and condemning heterosexuals from engaging in that behavior. Thus be careful that you are not misapplying the text to things it is not saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Garry, you keep missing the point due to your prejudice. You are teaching the traditions of man as the word God. Yes, God expects us to gain victory over sin. The other sins are clear from the Bible and has a good track record of victories. But the texts that we use to call homosexuality as sins, upon closer reading appear to be talking about HETEROSEXUALS committing homosexual behavior or talking about PEDOPHILES and that if you truly want to be fair to the text of the Bible, that it could well not be talking about people who are dealing with homosexuality. However you insist on applying these texts to something that the Bible is not talking about if you read your so called "proof texts" in their actual context. This topic God has not seen fit to give the victories that we see in other sins, and a careful reading of the text does makes it difficult to see it applying beyond condemning pedophiles and condemning heterosexuals from engaging in that behavior. Thus be careful that you are not misapplying the text to things it is not saying. Could you clarify a couple of things please?? Is the homosexual lifestyle a protected sin,one that can be engaged in without the penalties of other sins? If the bible does not refer to a homosexual lifestyle as a sin,one that is listed among others as preventing eternal life,why not perform gay marriages in our denomination? Is it because we are teaching the traditions of man as the word God? If pedophiles and heterosexuals engaging in that behavior is all that is condemned ,why on earth would we refuse to marry two men or two women? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Our leaders have been studying this for years, discussing problems with the context of the texts, yet they also are sensitive to where most of our members come from. On this issue there is an official open stance, yet a quiet keep it out of the spotlight stance. Elder David Larson gives some interesting lectures on this in his classes at Loma Linda, and others in other schools and churches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Yet several pro gay churches & ministries teach gay people that they have no need whatsoever to change after they are saved? There is no focus at all on any type of behaviour modification, its simply accepted and endorsed. To suggest behavioral change is considered openly wrong by these groups. I believe openly that a person can be born again and that person can lose their salvation if they choose to. You cannot have a relationship with God if you cannot walk away from it at any point by your own choice. First of all, I don't see anyone here "endorsing" a gay (or alcoholic or addicted or adulterous) life style. Nor is it another man's job to "change" them - it is the job of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, you can indeed walk away from God - to your own peril; but you can also walk back into His loving and waiting arms - any time, no questions asked. See the story of the prodigal son. And, if we backslide into a pet/besetting sin, it's not over. As long as we get up every time we fall, we have not lost our salvation. (IMHO) James 1:13-14 says "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire." Add opportunity to desire, and you have a recipe for sin. We may be able to modify our behavior by avoiding an opportunity to feed our desire; but sometimes opportunity finds us. If we fall, we have an Advocate with the Father in the person of Jesus. He understands our temptations and desires, because He was tempted just as we are; but never sinned. I wish I had that kind of willpower. In contrast to James 1:13-14, James 1:16-18 says: "Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.[d] 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. That "perfect gift" in this case is taking away the "desire". Sometimes He does this and sometimes He doesn't - I have no idea why He chooses to do that for some and not others. I'm talking undesirable behavior of any sort here. If and when God takes away our desire for any allged sin, that is the beginning of victory. However, besetting "sins" are habits that have a history; and old habits are hard to break. God understands that. I wish more people did. Sojourner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hmmmmmm. God demands victory, and He gives it to some and not to others? What is James saying in this week's SS lesson? "God shows NO partiality!" He leaves me in my sinful condition to show the universe what sin does? How about giving me victory over my sins to show the saving power of the gospel??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 How about giving me victory over my sins to show the saving power of the gospel??? He does give victory to those who want it and turn to Him to affect it. Or was there sarcasm in that sentence? God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hmmmmmm. God demands victory, and He gives it to some and not to others? What is James saying in this week's SS lesson? "God shows NO partiality!" He leaves me in my sinful condition to show the universe what sin does? How about giving me victory over my sins to show the saving power of the gospel??? The more bitter the battle, the sweeter the victory. As the saying goes' "Rome wasn't built in a day". Neither is sanctification achieved in an instant. The only time you lose is when agree with the devil that "you lose". Do you hate what your besetting sins make you do? Did you used to love what your besetting sins make you do? If so, then you have "repented" - you have changed your mind. You are on your way to sanctification. Instead of focusing on your sin, focus on Jesus' grace that gives you power to overcome. Even if you fall, you will fall less often. It's hard to sin a lot when you are focused on the goodness and power of your Redeemer rather than focusing on your inability to overcome sin on your own. Big news - you will still sin. That's why you need a Redeemer. If you were sinless, you wouldn't need Jesus. Jesus always offers us a victory. Sometimes we hesitate to accept it on His terms; or we believe the devil's lie that Jesus won't help us because we are not worthy. If we were worthy enough for Him to give His life for us, we're worthy enough to ask for and receive His help. LifeHiscost and Woody 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hmmmmmm. God demands victory, and He gives it to some and not to others? What is James saying in this week's SS lesson? "God shows NO partiality!" He leaves me in my sinful condition to show the universe what sin does? How about giving me victory over my sins to show the saving power of the gospel??? The gifts of the Spirit are given differently to each individual. I don't view it as "partiality". God does not answer all prayers the same. To each He hands out a different measure. All good comes from God. Instead of looking at where we lack .... it would be far better to praise God for the good He has given in our lives. He DOES give us victory to show us His power. And each of us have plenty of that to praise Him for. But He does not make all of us perfect. Instead .... we are all lacking. JoeMo 1 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Our leaders have been studying this for years, discussing problems with the context of the texts, yet they also are sensitive to where most of our members come from. On this issue there is an official open stance, yet a quiet keep it out of the spotlight stance. Elder David Larson gives some interesting lectures on this in his classes at Loma Linda, and others in other schools and churches. How are they going with the various Ellen White quotes on the issue that go much further than what the Bible says? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 He DOES give us victory to show us His power. I'm of the opinion He also gives us victories in order that we might live above those things that wound us (as well as others) and destroys our peace. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 31, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2014 Garry, you keep missing the point due to your prejudice. You are teaching the traditions of man as the word God. Yes, God expects us to gain victory over sin. The other sins are clear from the Bible and has a good track record of victories. But the texts that we use to call homosexuality as sins, upon closer reading appear to be talking about HETEROSEXUALS committing homosexual behavior or talking about PEDOPHILES and that if you truly want to be fair to the text of the Bible, that it could well not be talking about people who are dealing with homosexuality. However you insist on applying these texts to something that the Bible is not talking about if you read your so called "proof texts" in their actual context. This topic God has not seen fit to give the victories that we see in other sins, and a careful reading of the text does makes it difficult to see it applying beyond condemning pedophiles and condemning heterosexuals from engaging in that behavior. Thus be careful that you are not misapplying the text to things it is not saying. Kevin, since I can't find someone named "Garry", you must be referring to me, Gerry. Am I prejudiced because I'm also against stealing, gossip, murder, and prejudice? If my understanding of the texts I quoted is in error, then show how your interpretation is the correct one. Am I to understand what you said that heterosexuals practicing homosexual activity is condemned but not homosexual who were born with that orientation? If that's the case, then I should be exempt too, since I too was born a sinner with all kinds of sinful desires. It seems to me that the Bible would have made it clear if the distinction you are making was meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 31, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2014 Woody, on 30 Oct 2014 - 5:21 PM, said:Woody, on 30 Oct 2014 - 5:21 PM, said: The gifts of the Spirit are given differently to each individual. I don't view it as "partiality". God does not answer all prayers the same. To each He hands out a different measure. All good comes from God. Instead of looking at where we lack .... it would be far better to praise God for the good He has given in our lives. Apples and pears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 31, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2014 Sorry about the misspelling Gerry: Anyway, the Bible does make the distinctions, the picking proof texts out of context and the traditional translation of a word makes it harder to notice, and our reading our traditions into the text wanting the Bible to say what we wish God said instead of what he actually said that makes us like Isaiah and Jesus says, having ears but do not hear, having eyes but do not see. Now languages are my weak point and someone with a better understanding of the language may clarify this, but apparently Paul could have used other Greek words that could have meant homosexuality in all it's implications. Instead the word he uses, as word studies have been done and other ancient writings have been discovered and the use of that word has consistently had only one meaning. It is a very specific term for adult men having sex with little boys in the gym. However although Paul picked a word with a specific narrow meaning, before we discovered that he had a very technical meaning, translators had just translated it with the more general term "homosexuality." so instead of reading what would be a more accurate translation "Adult men having sex with little boys in the gym" we read in our translations "homosexuality." The question is do we really want to study the Bible to see what those words meant to the people who wrote and the original audience it was addressed to? Or do we want to read into it our traditions as to what we THINK it SHOULD say and have our opinions be the final authority. No you are NOT correct to say "Am I to understand what you said that heterosexuals practicing homosexual activity is condemned but not homosexual who were born with that orientation?" This is what our scholars have been debating for several decades. What they tell us is that it is clear that the texts are talking about heterosexuals engaged in homosexual behavior. What they cannot agree on is whether to limit the text to it's actual context or to widen the text to include people born with the homosexual orientation as well. I am allowing them to fight this out and see where the debate finally ends up. I am just sharing what our church leaders have been telling us in classes and in lectures so that we are at least aware of the issues in the current debate and have a foundation other than tradition to build our studies upon. Like I've said several times before. When Jesus comes I have the potential of two condemnations when I see Jesus. I could be sharing this information and limit the application of the texts to it's specific context and encourage people who are struggling with homosexuality to do their best, to not do the flaunting and the promiscuity that runs rampant in that lifestyle but encourage a private monogamist relationship and to trust in Jesus' love for them... And when Jesus comes, yes, he may look at me with a very angry look and say that I should have joined you in posting the messages that you posted. That I should have joined Jerry Farwell and James Dobson in their attacks on this lifestyle and that Jesus would be upset with me that I was giving these sinners a false hope. However if I was to join you, and Farwell and Dobson and the others, another condemnation that I risk facing when Jesus comes is seeing him with tears in his eyes, saying that the texts were for specific problems and that my message did not give them hope and that they just assumed that they could not be Christians because they have this lifestyle, thus they lived their whole lives secularly and never accepted Jesus and ended up lost, and that Jesus could have worked with these people but that instead they are lost. Honestly Gerry, I do not know which one of these two condemnations I will hear from Jesus' lips. However I would much rather hear the first condemnation than the second. If I am wrong I'd rather be wrong the first way instead of the second way. Johann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 If we are sincerely wrong. We are forgiven. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 1, 2014 Moderators Share Posted November 1, 2014 He does give victory to those who want it and turn to Him to affect it. Or was there sarcasm in that sentence? God is Love! Jesus saves! No sarcasm intended. Just stating a more logical reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.