Has Adventists' prophetic understanding lost it way?

[hch]

It is written in Daniel 7:17

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

 

Is it rightly dividing the word to reinterpret Heaven's interpretation?

 

When Heaven interpreted the prophecy to Daniel Heaven changed the sea-beasts

to kings from the earth.

 

Adventists generally change them back to kingdoms "from the sea"

and disregard Heaven's interpretation.

 

Does that make any difference?

 

 

[hch]

Since earth and sea are different prophetically,

when Heaven explained the prophecy to Daniel,

is it possible that Heaven was changing the focus of Daniel 7

from the great sea-kingdoms to the kings from the earth that would rule in the endtime?

[Gerr]

If you look at v23, you will find that kings = kingdoms.

[hch]

Gary,

 

are you sure?

[hch]

If you look at v23, you will find that kings = kingdoms.

 

Thanks for trying Gerry.

 

Now that I am back on my computer I can consider it more completely.

 

After looking at Daniel 7:23 a little deeper than a superficial glance,

kingdoms does not appear to be the meaning as you would have me believe.

 

23 "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."

 

The word kingdoms is only translated in Daniel as kingdoms. Nowhere else in the Bible.

 

In Daniel 5:20 "But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly <04437> throne, and they took his glory from him:"

 

In Daniel 6:3  "Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm <04437>."

 

In Daniel 6:28 "So this Daniel prospered in the reign <04437> of Darius, and in the reign <04437> of Cyrus the Persian."

 

Thus Kingdoms is not always rendered as kingdoms in Daniel.

 

Strong gives the definition of the word in question that the translators generally rendered kingdoms in Daniel:

1) royalty, reign, kingdom

1a) royalty, kingship, kingly authority

1b) kingdom

1c) realm (of territory)

1d) reign (of time)

 

Heaven declares Daniel 7:17  "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

 

The word kings used here appears 180 times in Scripture.

It is kings never kingdoms.

 

Heaven declares the endtime meaning of the 4 beasts to be 4 kings (v.17)

then when the translators arrive at verse 23

instead of translating the text in harmony with kings, they changed the kings to kingdoms.

 

If the context had been preserved

Heaven's kings in v. 17

would have been obvious in v.23

 

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth reign upon earth, which shall be diverse from all reigns,

and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."

[Gerr]

ESV | ‎Da 7:17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 

 

ESV | ‎Da 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 

 

Dan 7 is a parallel vision to Dan 2, but with more details.  Dan 2 explicitly identifies 4 kingdoms.

 

If you insist on "kings" being different from "kingdoms" in Dan 7, there are not any kings that lived long enough to fit the visions of Dan 2,7, & 8.

[hch]

ESV | ‎Da 7:17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 

 

ESV | ‎Da 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 

 

Dan 7 is a parallel vision to Dan 2, but with more details.  Dan 2 explicitly identifies 4 kingdoms.

 

If you insist on "kings" being different from "kingdoms" in Dan 7, there are not any kings that lived long enough to fit the visions of Dan 2,7, & 8.

 

Gerry,

 

You are doing a great job presenting your understanding, so don't let the devil frustrate you.

 

Switching from KJV to ESV does not negate the kingdom mindset problem.

 

The kingdoms have been understood since HYPPOLITUS  OF ROME (4th century AD)

The kingdoms are TRUE

 

But the kingdoms cannot be the endtime meaning revealed in Daniel 7:17 because they were understood at least 1300-years before the prophecy was opened and unsealed.

 

Daniel 12:4 & 9 close, seal, and shut up the prophecy until men "run to and fro"

 

Daniel was not to be opened before 1798-1844 so the meaning that was understood before then is not the endtime meaning.

 

Thus the kingdoms meaning seals the authenticity of Daniel's prophecy until he stands in his lot in the endtime when by their fulfillment the books of Daniel and Revelation explain themselves.

 

And Daniel 2 does not settle the issue as you suppose because after the translators incorporate the kingdom view into Daniel 2's prophecy as they did though out his book by using the word kingdom where they could have used reign, realm, or royal; Daniel states that the gold, silver, brass and iron are broken "together" but the 4 kingdoms did not and do not coexist to be broken together "at the same time"

 

 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever" (Daniel 2:44).

 

Notice that it is not the days of these kingdoms, but the days of these KINGS that harmonizes with 7:17 kings from the earth. Just like Heaven's explanation in 7:17, which "is a parallel with more details."

 

Accepting a partial prophetic fulfillment from the past as the complete fulfillment

gets in the way of understanding the final complete fulfillment when God sends it in His time

[Gerr]

ESV | ‎Da 7:17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 

‎‎NASB95 | ‎Da 7:17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 

‎‎NIV84 | ‎Da 7:17 ‘The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. 

‎‎NRSV | ‎Da 7:17 “As for these four great beasts, four kings shall arise out of the earth. 

KJV 1900 | ‎Da 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 

 

ESV | ‎Da 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 

‎‎NASB95 | ‎Da 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 

‎‎NIV84 | ‎Da 7:23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 

‎‎NRSV | ‎Da 7:23 This is what he said: “As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth that shall be different from all the other kingdoms; it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 

‎‎KJV 1900 | ‎Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 

 

Now. did the ESV make any difference?

[hch]

 

ESV | ‎Da 7:17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 

‎‎NASB95 | ‎Da 7:17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 

‎‎NIV84 | ‎Da 7:17 ‘The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. 

‎‎NRSV | ‎Da 7:17 “As for these four great beasts, four kings shall arise out of the earth. 

KJV 1900 | ‎Da 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 

 

ESV | ‎Da 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 

‎‎NASB95 | ‎Da 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 

‎‎NIV84 | ‎Da 7:23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 

‎‎NRSV | ‎Da 7:23 This is what he said: “As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth that shall be different from all the other kingdoms; it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 

‎‎KJV 1900 | ‎Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 

 

Now. did the ESV make any difference?

 

 

Gerry,

 

I said "Switching from KJV to ESV does not negate the kingdom mindset problem."

 

You attempted to show me from ESV that the KJV was right about kingdoms.

They are both only partially correct as I pointed out in the reply.

 

To clarify what I meant:

Switching from KJV to ESV to prove your point did not prove that the kingdom mindset was correct.

You proved that the KJV and ESV translators agreed on the kingdom view.

 

NIV84 | ‎Da 7:17 ‘The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.

 

This NIV84 translation is a blatant attempt to change Scripture.

It takes the word king that NEVER is translated as kingdoms anywhere in the Bible

and adjusts it to agree with the popular prevailing partial understanding.

 

What was the purpose of giving these texts?

They prove what I said:

The prevailing mindset is that Daniel is about kingdoms from the SEA

even though Heaven states that it is explaining kings from the Earth.

 

You will likely find that it is in every Bible you check.

But that does not make the translation correct.

It does make the translation popular.

 

Sea and earth are different

as king and kingdoms can be different.

 

And in Daniel 2 and 7

Daniel begins with kingdoms and switches to kings

The translations do not follow the shift in either chapter.

But the wording that Daniel uses for kings is only translated as KINGS

except in Bibles that ignore the real meaning like NIV84

And the word translated as kingdom in Daniel

can be translated as realm, reign, or royal just as easily as kingdom

thus it can harmonize with king and support that meaning

without any distortion of the text

[Gerr]

hch, are you saying that the "kings" in Dan 7 are individuals?  If so, who are they?

[hch]

hch, are you saying that the "kings" in Dan 7 are individuals?  If so, who are they?

 

Gerry,

 

The Bible is saying that they are "kings from the earth"

 

I am just studying to show myself approved of God, a workman who needs not to be ashamed.

 

The earth according to SDA teaching is the power that arises from America.

 

So the "kings from the earth" would have to be American Presidents.

 

And when they come upon the scene, they would have to be identifiable.

 

Because 'by their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves'

[lazarus]

Gerry,

 

 

The earth according to SDA teaching is the power that arises from America.

 

So the "kings from the earth" would have to be American Presidents.

 

 

Have you ever wondered why Americans would make their end time interpretation of the end of the world about America?

[JoeMo]

Yup.  I thought the Bible and most of its contents were originally written by Jew, to Jews, and for Jews; and dealt primarily with the "world" we know as the Middle East.  I do understand its universal applications in these latter days.  But I'm not convinced the United States will have a major role at the end of time.

[hch]

Have you ever wondered why Americans would make their end time interpretation of the end of the world about America?

 

Lazarus,

 

Since Revelation 13 states that the beast power from the earth would call fire down from the sky

in the sight of witnesses and America did it twice over japan in WW II,

it appears to be self-explanatory.

Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves by their fulfillment in the endtime.

 

Do you have a different take on it?

[Tom Wetmore]

What does it mean "call fire down from the sky"?   

 

Hint -  allusion to an OT story...

[lazarus]

Lazarus,

 

Since Revelation 13 states that the beast power from the earth would call fire down from the sky

in the sight of witnesses and America did it twice over japan in WW II,

it appears to be self-explanatory.

Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves by their fulfillment in the endtime.

 

Do you have a different take on it?

 

??? Nearly every nation involved in war in the mid-latter part of the 20th century "has called down fire". Have you ever heard of firebombing? Mortars etc.

[LifeHiscost]

Gerry,

 

The Bible is saying that they are "kings from the earth"

 

I am just studying to show myself approved of God, a workman who needs not to be ashamed.

 

The earth according to SDA teaching is the power that arises from America.

 

So the "kings from the earth" would have to be American Presidents.

 

And when they come upon the scene, they would have to be identifiable.

 

Because 'by their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves'

This is posted elsewhere but I lost where it is. Would it have some significance re: this topic?

 

http://www.seventh-day.org/obama.htm

 

Even if that weren't true, the sign's that are so prevalent as described in Matthew 24 is enough to recognize the closeness of Jesus return. It is only common sense that the better acquaintance one has with Jesus, the more apt they'll be ready to meet Him when He reveals Himself in the clouds.

 

…22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matt 7 Emphasis theirs' LHC

 

12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

What does it mean "call fire down from the sky"?   

 

Hint -  allusion to an OT story...

 

Tom,

 

It is most likely that this is an allusion to an OT story

But is ascribing that allusion to it and to ignore all other possibilities a reliable Bible study method?

 

My favorite Bible commentator states that endtime "miracles" will be counterfeited as they were by pharaoh's magicians.

 

The magicians literally turned their rods into snakes and counterfeited  others as well.

 

Truman's calling fire down from the sky in the sight of eyewitnesses confirms America's identity.

Which is not to say that America won't do it again.

 

In fact, she might be doing it now?

 

Friendly fire is an example.

The term fire is used loosely for the munitions flash  

America has repudiated every principle of it constitution

 

example: Innocent until proven guilty ?

undeniable rights to due process ?

 

President Obama declared 3 American citizens terrorists and used drone fire to blow them away

When Congress questioned his authority, he sent Attorney General Holder to congress to argue 

that the "president has the right to kill Americans on American soil."

 

So there are three American citizens that are dead from drone fire without due process

and a 16-year old boy who happened to be at the wrong place (unintended collateral damage)

 

Jesus did tell us to watch

[hch]

??? Nearly every nation involved in war in the mid-latter part of the 20th century "has called down fire". Have you ever heard of firebombing? Mortars etc.

 

Is it your position that the SDA Church has misidentified America in Revelation 13?

[Gerr]

Gerry,

 

The Bible is saying that they are "kings from the earth"

 

I am just studying to show myself approved of God, a workman who needs not to be ashamed.

 

The earth according to SDA teaching is the power that arises from America.

 

So the "kings from the earth" would have to be American Presidents.

 

And when they come upon the scene, they would have to be identifiable.

 

Because 'by their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves'

I think I know who has lost his prophetic way of interpretation.

[hch]

I think I know who has lost his prophetic way of interpretation.

 

Gerry,

 

My favorite author does say "If ever a people were represented by the Laodicean message, it is the people who have had great light, the revelation of the Scriptures, that Seventh-day Adventists have received." (18MR 193.3)

 

"Shall Seventh-day Adventists walk in the same path as did the Jewish nation? Shall the message to the Laodicean church be applicable to this people? Shall those who have seen great light, who have had large opportunities and many privileges, cease to do service as witnesses for Christ? Those who know the truth, but who feel no special burden to reveal corresponding works, will be like that servant who knew his Master's will, but did it not."  {19MR 172.3}

 

On the eve of Christ's Second Advent, why would EGW compare SDA's with the Jewish nation that lost their way at the time of Christ's First Advent?

 

On the other hand, when God said through the prophet Daniel to King Nebuchadnezzar, "Thou art this head of gold" did God limit His understanding of the prophecy to its beginning and fail to understand what would be opened and unsealed in the endtime?

 

So when the word of God unseals an endtime meaning that relates to 'four kings from the earth' that are American presidents, should we expect Laodiceans to see that message? When the final message to Laodicea tells them that they are blind, but that they do not realize their true condition, should it be expected that they should see?

 

Though Bible study should explain that the last pope is in office, and the last American President, and that ISIS is drying up the Euphrates (ISIS is killing Christians along the Euphrates River Basin and they are fleeing for their lives); what is that to Laodicea? It does not fit into their collective reckoning. The pioneers did not figure it out in their day and should Laodiceans see it now?

[Aliensanctuary]

Some individuals will still be clutching their red books in a death grip while the Kingdom of Satan, the 4th Beast, all but destroys the Earth.

 

  7=Earth and Earth-related

10=Kingdom of Satan

12=Kingdom of YHVH

 

Raging Sea=Swarming billions of resurrected humans, amalgamated by war into the 4 Sequential Kingdoms of the Last Days. 

[Aliensanctuary]

BTW, it's human nature to create conflict and wars, and many will do it until they breathe their last. The Last Days was their Last Chance, and what did they do? They created more wars and war machines while observers from the Kingdom of YHVH watched from above.

[hch]

...the Kingdom of YHVH watched from above.

 

It is TRUE! The Bible gives us everything we need to know.

But from my experience;

the 'red books' (when rightly understood)

are a blessing that will endure till Christ comes in glory.

[hch]

As the babe is about to be born,

has the woman's labor pang's so worn her out

that she is not able to give birth?