Has Adventists' prophetic understanding lost it way?

[Tom Wetmore]

What does it mean "call fire down from the sky"?

Hint - allusion to an OT story...

Tom,

It is most likely that this is an allusion to an OT story

But is ascribing that allusion to it and to ignore all other possibilities a reliable Bible study method?

* * *

Yes it is. Especially if the other possibilities approach is basically an imagination run wild.

The symbolic nature of an allusion in prophecy is to bring to mind the facts and circumstances of the original story or stories alluded to. A key to the context of that beast in Revelation 13 was signs and wonders or supernatural miracles to induce worship of the first beast. Think of a story in the OT now where a deciding sign of who should merit worship by a test of who could call on their God to rain fire from heaven to burn up their offering. The prophet of God did that and all the people bowed and worshipped. That is the key to understanding the meaning of the allusion in the prophecy.

Now the imagery of Revelation 13 is of a false god who is mimicking the true God and causing a great deception And this beast comes along and speaks great things and utters blasphemy (check carefully what that word means). Part of the great deception is to call on the false god, the first beast, to show a great miracle like raining fire from heaven that will cause many to be deceived into thinking it to be the one true God, for only He can cause fire to come out of the heavens.

The bottom line is the calling fire down from heaven is not an act of war or some modern man made technological wonder. It is a miracle of deception that causes people to think it from God and thereby inducing them to fall down and worship the false God and the image to it.

The book of Revelation was written to bring easy understanding to its original readers steeped in Jewish history. The coded references to the OT stories of God's people gave them assurance of God's providence in the past and hope for the future. That should guide our reading of it as well.

[Aliensanctuary]

I believe that when the fleet of Satanic forces attacks and invades the Earth near the End of Time, they will have beam weapons in their arsenal, similar to the weapon used to vaporize Eliyah's offering to YHVH, including the stones it lay on.

[hch]

 

...The symbolic nature of an allusion in prophecy is to bring to mind the facts and circumstances of the original story or stories alluded to...

The book of Revelation was written to bring easy understanding to its original readers steeped in Jewish history.  The coded references to the OT stories of God's people gave them assurance of God's providence in the past and hope for the future.  That should guide our reading of it as well.

 

Tom,

you might be blessed by further study.

 

" I was pointed back to the time of Moses and saw the signs and wonders which God wrought through him before Pharaoh, most of which were imitated by the magicians of Egypt; and that just before the final deliverance of the saints, God would work powerfully for His people, and these modern magicians would be permitted to imitate the work of God."  {EW 59.2}

 

"And the apostle John, describing the miracle-working power that will be manifested in the last days, declares: “He doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do.” [Revelation 13:13, 14.] No mere impostures are here foretold. Men are deceived by the miracles which Satan's agents have power to do, not which they pretend to do.  {GC88 553.2}

 

Satan's agents have the power they are not dependent on Satan for supernatural assistance. Which he is ready to give if the need should arise.

 

Truman clearly had the power to call fire down from heaven (the sky) and he did it twice over Japan.

And Obama clearly has the ability to draw fire down from the sky and he has done it 3 times while repudiating the principles of America's Constitution.

 

Rev 13:13-14 is describing the American (earth-beast) power compelling compliance to his dogmas by the use of force. And one of the wonders available to him is the ability to call fire down from the sky that both Truman and Obama have demonstrated that "counterfeits" the supernatural miracle recorded in Scripture (which they do as pharaoh's magicians counterfeited wonders in their day).

 

[hch]

I believe that when the fleet of Satanic forces attacks and invades the Earth near the End of Time, they will have beam weapons in their arsenal, similar to the weapon used to vaporize Eliyah's offering to YHVH, including the stones it lay on.

 

Didn't Reagan put Star Wars weapons in space with the stated goal to be able to do that very thing?

[Tom Wetmore]

But here is the disconnect in the ideas you have suggested as to what this means. The actions in the referenced stories of old were specifically in the context of opposition to God and/or his people, by either direct worship of a god, invoking the gods to "rain fire from the sky", or an effort to imitate the work of God, or even in a few cases a human claiming to be a God, like Nebuchadnezzar. All acts of blasphemy, the same sin as is identified in the prophecy. But the actions you are claiming as fulfilling are human inventions of war, and not really directed at God's people, not claiming even by implication to be an act of God, or the gods.

The ultimate power of a god in ancient thinking was a show of power from the heavens where the gods dwelt. Lightning was regarded by the ancients as "fire from heaven". The prophet called down fire from heaven on Mt Carmel to burn up the sacrifice. God destroyed Sodom with fire from the heavens. In those two instances it was clear that the one true God did it. What form the imitation of the ultimate power of God will take in modern times may be less clear since we do understand lightning as a natural phenomenon. But a more subtle form is much more probable, that in terms of what distinguishes false religion and true religion is the means of our salvation. Our salvation is from God and God alone. False religion tries to substitute and imitate God's role by presuming to play God, to usurp the role of Christ in our salvation.

[hch]

...

The ultimate power of a god in ancient thinking was a show of power from the heavens where the gods dwelt.  Lightning was regarded by the ancients as "fire from heaven".  The prophet called down fire from heaven on Mt Carmel to burn up the sacrifice.  God destroyed Sodom with fire from the heavens.  In those two instances it was clear that the one true God did it.  What form  the imitation of the ultimate power of God will take in modern times may be less clear since we do understand lightning as a natural phenomenon.  But a more subtle form is much more probable, that in terms of what distinguishes false religion and true religion is the means of our salvation. Our salvation is from God and God alone.  False religion tries to substitute and imitate God's role by presuming to play God, to usurp the role of Christ in our salvation.  

 

Tom,

 

The god of this earth, satan, rules by compulsion: comply or die.

 

In the examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,

it has been asked among some Christian groups, "why those two cities?"

 

Of all of Japan (at the time) it has been said of one of them that it had the most Christians per capita 

than any other city in Japan. If that were possible, the question follows

"Why would a 'Christian  president' of a 'Christian country' choose to bomb a city that could be considered

one of the most Christian cities in a country that had only a few Christians?

 

When the Bible speaks of America in the endtime as a persecuting power

the Protestant majority is promoting a non-Christian (antichrist) agenda

 

So when America flexes its might in preparation for endtime final events

those that understand the Third Angel's Message must identify her actions

in the context of prophecy even before it reaches its endtime final fulfillment.

 

My favorite author makes it clear that those who fail to understand the meaning of antichrist

will be deceived by antichrist.

 

Faith and sight are to be kept in balance. By faith in the word of God we can understand much of

what will be in the endtime if we study to show ourselves approved of God.

Those who have only a superficial understanding may not wake up to their need until it is too late.

Like those in Noah's day. The majority awoke when it was raining.

 

We must not repeat that mistake!

[hch]

Has Adventists' prophetic understanding lost it's way?

Knowing that earth and sea are different in the Scriptures:

as a people, we generally make these two symbols to be the same thing in Daniel 7

by embracing the position that the symbolic sea is the literal earth.

 

By that point of view, Daniel 7 is made to contradict the light in Revelation 13.

 

When increased light comes in that it is pointed out that knowledge is to be and has been increased

the position taken by most of the respondents to this thread includes:

 

kings = kingdoms (always with no exceptions?)

which also dismisses the fact that Heaven said 'kings' and meant the meaning to be 'kings' (Daniel 7:17)

But that bit of endtime truth does not conveniently fit with our historical understanding.

So rather than move with the light, and study the facts, the attitude expressed is to dig in and hold on

And what about the use of a corrupted translation that does away with Heaven's interpretation of the 'kings' ?

 

Then there was the suggestion that America may not be identified in Bible prophecy.

It is as though a well established teaching from Bible study and the Spirit of prophecy should be set aside

to avoid identifying the American presidents revealed in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13

It is as if to say that God can identify King Nebuchadnezzar at the onset of Daniel's prophecy

but God cannot identify the rulers who are to be the closers.

If God reveals truth in His word, is there a blessing promised to those who refuse to look for it (or at it)

or to those who explain it away as if it is unimportant?

 

And when Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves by their fulfillment

is the explanation explained away because it does not fit with man's understanding

that has not kept up with the increase of knowledge?

 

And when the messenger presents a view that has not been properly studied by the group

the insinuation has been expressed that the messenger must be in error.

 

Is this comfort zone Christianity?

It was good enough for our fathers, it is good enough for me?

Our forefathers searched for truth and believed what they understood in their day.

So do we commit to study the word or limit ourselves to studying our fathers studies?

 

The problem is that if SDA's are in the Ladeocian condition,

and they don't look into the word to be sure that they have not overlooked Present Truth

they are in danger of being blinded while they feel that they have need of nothing.

[hch]

Brothers and Sisters,

 

From studying Daniel and Revelation

for a period of 14 months I declared that Benedict would not be pope after Spring of 2013

Then he resigned in February 2013

So I went back to the prophecies to learn the particulars

 

From Daniel 7, I partially understood the endtime transition of the sea-beast to the earth-kings

Before the fact, I did not understand everything

But when prophecy was fulfilled, that which was understood in part became more clear

 

That is how God led His people at the beginning of the Advent Movement

in 1843 Adventists thought Jesus was coming

When Jesus did not come Adventists thought He would come in 1844

When Jesus did not come in 1844, Adventists learned about the Investigative Judgment

 

Thus from Bible study I understand that Satan will soon appear as John-Paul II and unite with Francis and Benedict

to finish deceiving the world with the 2 great errors: Sunday sacredness and spiritualism (state of the dead)

 

Obama is the last American President

He is on record as saying that he will act without congress if necessary

And the recent US election has propelled two endtime powers into power: Protestantism and Republicanism

 

ISIS is NOW drying up the Christian influence along the Euphrates River basin

with its policy: convert to Islam, support ISIS financially, or die (Christians flee)

 

And the volatility of world financial markets with their wide swings

is like the frog boiling in the water - we are so used to the conditions that we do not see the danger

 

And there is so much more that I won't mention because it would be like casting pearls upon the ground

But Prophetic discernment that explains the symbolic sea as being the literal earth

(making different symbols to mean the same thing)

surely looks like that prophetic discernment has lost its way on the eve of Christ's Advent.

 

And the sad thing is the apathy being displayed by God's people

Instead of sincerely looking at all of the facts and doing a thorough Bible study

they explain away the tidbits that they encounter

and then by expressions of disbelief cast their shadow over those who would look a little deeper

 

My only consolation is that as a faithful watchman, I have sounded the alarm

It is up to the hearers to hear and to prepare

God bless His people everywhere

[JoeMo]

hch,

I can't say anything about your prophetic interpretation except it is different than what I see (that's different than saying it's wrong).  It is obvious that you have put much thought and study into this over many years; and I commend you for that.

 

Nonetheless, much of what you say may instill fear and apprehension into people.  We must focus on the fact that believers are an army; and the prophecies are not warnings or threats; but are equivalent to infallible military intelligence concerning the enemy's plans; and how we are to respond to the enemy's activity.  Just like in the earthly military, God probably has different plans for different units in His army; so He gives each unit a slightly different focus.  The part we all should be focusing on is how the story ends in every scenario - God's chosen literally live happily ever after.

[LifeHiscost]

Brothers and Sisters,

 

My only consolation is that as a faithful watchman, I have sounded the alarm

It is up to the hearers to hear and to prepare

God bless His people everywhere

I really liked what your post said, HCH. To tell you the truth, it follows very close to the assessments I've already arrived at, although some different evidences along with Scripture (then plus your testimony) brought me to that position. This text might be another nail in the ark where safety can be found.

 

…16"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18"I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me....John 8

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

hch,

I can't say anything about your prophetic interpretation except it is different than what I see (that's different than saying it's wrong).  It is obvious that you have put much thought and study into this over many years; and I commend you for that.

 

Nonetheless, much of what you say may instill fear and apprehension into people.  We must focus on the fact that believers are an army; and the prophecies are not warnings or threats; but are equivalent to infallible military intelligence concerning the enemy's plans; and how we are to respond to the enemy's activity.  Just like in the earthly military, God probably has different plans for different units in His army; so He gives each unit a slightly different focus.  The part we all should be focusing on is how the story ends in every scenario - God's chosen literally live happily ever after.

 

JoeMo

 

Your message is among the last three messages that have been encouraging. Thank you and all.

 

We have become accustomed to messages of self-esteem and peace and safety. They have their time and place.

 

Certainly I do not want to instill fear in anyone. God will see His people through.

 

But it is written:

Hosea 4:6  "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

 

God does not delight in the death of the wicked. So He warns us to turn from our wicked ways.

 

Knowing exactly where we are in prophetic time is a blessing to arouse us to our duty.

 

In the 70's the SDA Church entered  into an agreement with the US government to allow SDA youth to enlist into the military.

That was then.

 

Knowing that President Obama will be ruling the earth-beast at the time when final events transpire

tells our youth that it is not time to be in America's military.

The edtime trials will be hard enough outside of the military

But to have a commanding officer order soldiers to take the mark of the beast will be worse

 

knowing the time to divest of our retirement nest eggs

is a blessing of the Lord

 

Knowing that now is not the time to have babies

will save young parents untold heartaches in the immediate future

 

all these things can be blessings or curses

 

Knowing the truth is a blessing

being in doubt  and uncertainty or disbelief can be a curse

 

And giving the three angel's message the right sound at the right time

is what God would have His people to do.

 

In WWII when Hitler was sweeping through Europe

God raised Maxwell to declare in Signs of the Times

that Hitler would fail.

The Brethren said that he should not be so dogmatic

what if you are wrong?

He stood on Daniel 2 and he was right

because he had a right understanding of the word at the time.

 

My understanding is different than many SDA's today

because I have been called to study and have been faithful to that calling

 

When my pastor discouraged me and I stopped studying

The Lord took my prophetic understanding

When I repented and yielded to God's direction

He restored my understanding and added to it beyond measure.

 

When some SDA's told me I would never have an opportunity to share my studies from the pulpit

The Lord invited me to Speak in Atlanta at a gathering of hundreds of SDA's

who received the word with thanksgiving

 

A local elder refused to look at the facts and opposed my sharing them with the local church

Then his wife repeatedly asked me to present the Sabbath School mission story

and share what was on my heart.

 

And the Lord has blessed.

Our local church has grown in membership by more that 10% in the last year

And God has blessed this church in many other ways.

 

God is going to finish the Advent Movement the way He started it

Bible study and prophetic discernment

calling people to believe a thus saith the Lord

and to work to warn the dying world err it is too late

 

God's people will make it through the Time of Trouble.

God will keep them.

We have His word on it.

But it is presumption to think that we know everything that there is to know

if we refuse to search for truth.

 

The message to Laodicea is one of the Laodiceans being blind while they think that they see.

 

And we do well to prayerfully heed the words of the Lord 

Jeremiah 29:13  "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

 

In closing, my message is not that different from what SDA's have taught for centuries

We have arrived at the time of the end

and from Daniel and Revelation, it is possible to know who the individuals are that will be waring

against God's people.

The difficulty is that to identify them before they do those things that are foretold

causes some of the brethren to fear "What if you get it wrong?"

 

That is a valid concern

And that is all the more reason why the faint at heart should be looking at the Bible study

to see if it is right or in error

 

If it is right they should embrace it and teach it

If they see an error in the Bible Study

They are obliged to point it out that truth will be proclaimed.

 

But to fail to study and to fault what they do not understand is the sin of bearing false witness.

 

I have offered to share the complete study with all who request it

that they may check it out

maybe 70 people have taken me up on that offer

And of those who have read the study

the response has been overwhelmingly

"Praise God!"

Of the others---feedback is still pending

 

send me a PM and read the entire study yourself (it is in an e-book).

 

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH said:

 

 

In the 70's the SDA Church entered  into an agreement with the US government to allow SDA youth to enlist into the military.

 

The above is false and absurd on its face.

 

The United States government has never needeed the permission of the SDA Church to allow members to be enlisted.

 

It should be noted that SDAs have been subject to the draft during most of the years that the draft was in operation.

 

Members of the SDA Chruch have been enlisting in the military for many years before the 1970s and did not need the permission of the denomination to enlist.

 

HCH also said:

 

 

But to fail to study and to fault what they do not understand is the sin of bearing false witness.

 

It is clear that you have failed to study and to understand.  Have you born false witness?  Yes, you have borne false witness.  However, I won't charge you with a sin as I attribute your false witness to simple ignorance.  All of us are ignorant about something.  This simply seems to be an area for you.

 

HCH said:

 

 

In closing, my message is not that different from what SDA's have taught for centuries.

 

How many hundred years do you believe that the SDA Chruch existed?  Again, another area of ignorance.

 

HCH said:

 

My understanding is different than many SDA's today because I have been called to study and have been faithful to that calling.

 

Are you telling us that you have been called to proclaim error as you have done in the above post?  Are you the one who determines that you have been faithful to your calling?  I will suggest that is determined by God and no one else.

 

HCH said:

 

Knowing that President Obama will be ruling the earth-beast at the time when final events transpire tells our youth that it is not time to be in America's military.  The edtime trials will be hard enough outside of the military.

 

Finally some truth mixed with some error.  The Bible does not teach what you said about President Obama.  The SDA Chruch does not now, and has not in the past, advised its members to enlist in the military.  Endtime trials will be extremely hard for everyone, wherever they are.

[hch]

HCH said: In the 70's the SDA Church entered  into an agreement with the US government to allow SDA youth to enlist into the military.

 

The above is false and absurd on its face.

 

The United States government has never needed the permission of the SDA Church to allow members to be enlisted.

 

It should be noted that SDAs have been subject to the draft during most of the years that the draft was in operation.

 

Members of the SDA Chruch have been enlisting in the military for many years before the 1970s and did not need the permission of the denomination to enlist.

 

HCH also said: But to fail to study and to fault what they do not understand is the sin of bearing false witness.

 

It is clear that you have failed to study and to understand.  Have you born false witness?  Yes, you have borne false witness.  However, I won't charge you with a sin as I attribute your false witness to simple ignorance.  All of us are ignorant about something.  This simply seems to be an area for you.

 

HCH said: In closing, my message is not that different from what SDA's have taught for centuries.

 

How many hundred years do you believe that the SDA Chruch existed?  Again, another area of ignorance.

 

HCH said: My understanding is different than many SDA's today because I have been called to study and have been faithful to that calling.

 

Are you telling us that you have been called to proclaim error as you have done in the above post?  Are you the one who determines that you have been faithful to your calling?  I will suggest that is determined by God and none else.

 

HCH said: Knowing that President Obama will be ruling the earth-beast at the time when final events transpire tells our youth that it is not time to be in America's military.  The edtime trials will be hard enough outside of the military.

 

Finally some truth mixed with some error.  The Bible does not teach what you said about President Obama.  The SDA Chruch does not now, and has not in the past, advise its members to enlist in the military.  Endtime trials will be extremely hard for everyone, wherever they are.

 

Brother Gregory,

 

Your post was a masterful misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my comments.

What more should I say now that the accuser of the brethren has spoken through you?

 

As a whitecoat, I was in the US Army during the Viet Nam War. I was asked to reinlist in 1973.

I declined because it required giving up my conscientious objector status.

After I left the army, I hired on as a government worker

working in the same lab with the same folks as a civilian.

I read the notice posted for the benefit of the whitecoats still in the Army after my departure

that the General Conference of SDA's had come to an agreement with the

Department of Defense that SDA's could now enlist as conscientious objectors.

 

Had you asked for clarification of my comments rather than assuming a confrontational position,

I would have explained what was apparently unclear.

 

 

Don't you believe that

To fail to study and to fault what one does not understand is the sin of bearing false witness?

 

As an Adventist, I understand that the name Seventh-day Adventist was officially adopted in the 1860's.

And that many of the teachings believed and taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church predate

the official naming of the church. The prominent belief expressed in our name referring to

Christ's Second Advent has indeed been around much longer than centuries,

but the Adventists of the 1820's (who became the founding members of the SDA Church) thus

 

In closing, my message is not that different from what SDA's have taught for centuries

 

If we are talking of the eminent return of our Savior! (centuries? 1820-2015 )

 

Brother Gregory, I have offered to dialog with you on numerous occasions. But thus far, I read your vague objections and when I ask for specifics, you vanish. Perhaps, rather than commenting on my imperfections, you would like to discuss something I teach that you might like to have corrected?

 

You faulted my comment about President Obama "Knowing that President Obama will be ruling the earth-beast at the time when final events transpire tells our youth that it is not time to be in America's military.  The edtime trials will be hard enough outside of the military."

 

Would you like to begin by discussing how I find President Obama in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13?

We could look at the facts and see if superficial Bible study has satisfied God's people for too long?

 

Certainly if President Obama is in Bible prophecy, that would be significant.

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH, your statement in regard to SDAs enlisting in the military was a generalized statement which a reasonable person would understand to be generalized permission to enlist.

 

The Whitecoat project was very limited in both time and scope.  It certainly cannot be generalized to the present time.

 

This issue is important enough that I want to make certain that every person reading here does not think that the SDA Church at large either encourages people to enlist in the military or that some special agreement exists that allows them to do so;   As a former U.S.; Army chaplain I must speak out in a manner to make this clear in an attempt to keep anyone from being deceived by your post.

 

As to sin:  I do not appear to be as judgmental as you appear to be.  (Your comment as to the accuser of the brethren speaking through me is certainly judgmental.)   I believe that you have failed to do the research that is needed for some of the comments that you have made.  I believe that you have born false witness.  But, I am not willing to charge you with sin.  You can charge yourself, if that is what you wish to do.

 

I question a number of things that you do.  I question your need to revise a book first written by Ellen G.  White and to publish your revised version and sell it yourself.  Do you believe that you have been called upon to revise her published writings.

 

You, as I understand you, believe that the prophet Daniel, writing in the Bible, foretold that President Clinton would have an affair with Monica.  Please correct me, if I am wrong.  I will welcome that.  Is not that theory in one of your published books?   If you seriously believe that to be true, so be it. 

 

I find a number of things about you interesting.  On this forum, you decline to tell us either your gender or your name.  That is your right and I do not have a problems with it.  Yet, you post elsewhere in a manner that clearly reveals both your gender and you name.  What is it about us here that would cause you to want for us not to know who you are?  Oh, well, that is your right.  I will support your right to chose not to post here as you do elsewhere.

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH, let me give you a little background about me.

 

I volunteered to serve in the U. S. Army under provisions of the statute that allowed me to serve in the Army with the same rights as did you when you were drafted (if that is how you served).  Included in this was the right to be a Conscientious Objector.  That is how I served.   There was no agreement between the military and the SDA denomination.  That was simply the law as passed by Congress.

 

Years later I reentered the U.S. Army as a Chaplain and a Commissioned Officer and served in that capacity for some time in the Reserves and then for 18 years on active duty.  During that entire period of time my official records stated that I was a Conscientious Objector.  Again, that was not due to any agreement between the military and the SDA Church.  That was due to the Geneva Convention Protocols.  you may correctly tell me that the U.S. Government has not signed those Protocols.  However, during the entire period of time that those Protocols have been in existence, the U.S. Government  has stated that it would abide by those Protocols that apply to military chaplains and their conscientious objector status.

 

This means that I have never been trained in the personal use of weapons of personal defense.  I have never been sent to the firing range to fire a weapon and I have never had a weapon assigned to me.   Yes, I have experienced crawling under live machine gun fire at a firing range.  Yes, I am trained in the use of biological and chemical agents in a manner that allows me to protect myself from them.  Yes, I am trained in the theory of the employment of nuclear weapons and understand well what I need to know in order to provide ministry on a nuclear battlefield.  But, I never had any training to prepare me to push the button that sent a nuclear weapon down range. 

 

With a few exceptions, such as for chaplains, the military is not the place for a conservative SDA with so-called traditional beliefs.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Thank you for your thoughts.

[LifeHiscost]

It is TRUE! The Bible gives us everything we need to know.

But from my experience;

the 'red books' (when rightly understood)

are a blessing that will endure till Christ comes in glory.

To Speak to the End—Abundant light has been given to our people in these last days. Whether or not my life is spared, my writings will constantly speak, and their work will go forward as long as time shall last. My writings are kept on file in the office, and even though I should not live, these words that have been given to me by the Lord will still have life and will speak to the people.—Letter 371, 1907 (Published in Selected Messages 1:55.).{3SM 76.4}

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

To Speak to the End—Abundant light has been given to our people in these last days. Whether or not my life is spared, my writings will constantly speak, and their work will go forward as long as time shall last. My writings are kept on file in the office, and even though I should not live, these words that have been given to me by the Lord will still have life and will speak to the people.—Letter 371, 1907 (Published in Selected Messages 1:55.).{3SM 76.4}

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

    "Prophecy has been fulfilling, line upon line. The more firmly we stand under the banner of the third angel's message, the more clearly shall we understand the prophecy of Daniel; for the Revelation is the supplement of Daniel. The more fully we accept the light presented by the Holy Spirit through the consecrated servants of God, the deeper and surer, even as the eternal throne, will appear the truths of ancient prophecy; we shall be assured that men of God spake as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Men must themselves be under the influence of the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Spirit's utterances through the prophets. These messages were given, not for those that uttered the prophecies, but for us who are living amid the scenes of their fulfillment."  {2SM 114.2}

 

"The dream of the great image, opening before Nebuchadnezzar events reaching to the close of time, had been given that he might understand the part he was to act in the world's history, and the relation that his kingdom should sustain to the kingdom of heaven. In the interpretation of the dream, he had been plainly instructed regarding the establishment of God's everlasting kingdom. "In the days of these kings," Daniel had declared, "shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. . . . The dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure." Daniel 2:44, 45."  {PK 503.1}

 

Daniel

 

7:17    "These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth."

 

12:4    "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

 

12:9    "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

 

Revelation 6:1-8

 6:1    "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

6:2    And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.  

 6:3    And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.  

 6:4    And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.  

 6:5    And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.  

 6:6    And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.  

 6:7    And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.  

 6:8    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

 

"After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered" (Revelation 10:4). These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time."  {1MR 99.2}

 

[iMHO the little book in Revelation 10 is Daniel chapter 11.]

 

     "The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them. The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God, most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer."  {1MR 99.3}  

 

[Daniel 11 begins with the 3 kings in Persia who begin the 2300-year prophecy (457 BC) and it ends in 1844 when Christ stands for His people to commence the Investigative Judgment.]

 

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book” (Daniel 12:1).

 

“Jesus rose up, and shut the door, and entered the Holy of Holies, at the 7th month 1844; but Michael’s standing up (Daniel 12:1) to deliver His people, is in the future.” (WLF 12.4)

 

“We have no time to lose. Troublous times are before us. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated.” (13MR 394.1)

 

[After Michael stood in 1844 much of the history in Daniel 11 has repeated, but not the time that ended in 1844]

 

[hch]

Prophetic discernment:

 

America's last election went overwhelmingly: Republicanism and Protestantism

 

and I just got this link to Sunday Law activity in Hungary

 

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hungary_christian_democrats_submit_bill_on_mandatory_sunday_rest_day.28648.html

[phkrause]

Not surprised at all. This will be popping up all over the world as we get closer to the 2nd coming.

[hch]

Not surprised at all. This will be popping up all over the world as we get closer to the 2nd coming.

 

Yes ,I also received a message today that it was the law of the land in Israel also.

 

http://remnant-online.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88&Itemid=17

 

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel-adopts-sundays-off/2013/02/23/

[Windsor]

Yes ,I also received a message today that it was the law of the land in Israel also.

 

http://remnant-online.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88&Itemid=17

 

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel-adopts-sundays-off/2013/02/23/

Satire.

[LifeHiscost]

Satire.

Though no doubt necessary, making Sunday a day of leisure still seems like a distant vision.

 

A comment from the source doesn't make it appear as if it is satire.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

Though no doubt necessary, making Sunday a day of leisure still seems like a distant vision.

 

A comment from the source doesn't make it appear as if it is satire.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

Mark 13;35  Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh,

at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36  Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37  And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

But if we watch & wait to see the Sunday Law go global,

we may be like the antediluvian

When they saw it raining,

it was too late to get into the ark

 

[hch]

But back to the issue: has Adventist prophetic interpretation lost its way?

 

With EGW clearly stating that Revelation supplements Daniel

 

Daniel giving the interpretation of the king's dream in Daniel 2

and then expanding it in Daniel 7 with the vision of great beasts

 

And to have Revelation give the unsealing of the horsemen that align with Daniel 2 & 7:

The white horse Babylon

Red horse Medo-Persia

black horse Greece

pale horse: Death (pagan Rome) and Hell (papal Rome)

 

Then Daniel giving the interpretation in 7:17

The great beasts are earth kings

 

Earth power symbolic of America as Revelation 13 supplements Daniel 7

America has presidents (Daniel is only book in Bible to cite presidents)

 

Thus the horsemen in Revelation 6 symbolize:

The white horse President...

Red horse President...

black horse President...

pale horse: President...Death and President...Hell

 

“The prophetic events related in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream were of consequence to him… wise men should not place upon it a false interpretation. The lessons taught by the dream [Daniel 2] were given by God for those who live in our day. The inability of the wise men to tell the dream is a representation of the limitations of the wise men of the present day, who, not having wisdom and discernment from the Most High, are unable to understand the prophecies... The man who is not listening to hear what the Lord says in His word, and who is not opening his heart to receive this word, that he may give it to others, is not a representative of the God of heaven. Not many great and learned men of the earth will gladly receive the truth unto eternal life, though to all of them the truth will be proclaimed.” (YI, November 24, 1903 par. 1)

 

This EGW quote is very strong. And as I read it, she is making these strong statements regarding the interpretation of Daniel 2 that is to apply to our day. And since as a people we have fixed our view of Daniel 2 to be relating to past history, from the context of EGW's statement, it looks like Adventist prophetic interpretation has lost its way.

 

What are we going to do about it?