"And this gospel"

[Robert]

Robert,

 

you often quote  Mrs. White, so I assume you believe she is an authority on the gospel of Christ.

 

 

"Authority"?, no.  She is not the measuring stick of truth.  She always pointed to the Bible as the infallible source of truth.  The Bible and the Bible alone is the measuring stick of truth.  Ellen White had limited truth and  she never claimed infallibility. 

 

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our (EGW includes herself) expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." {RH, Dec 20, 1892 --CW 35.2}

 

But don't you quote Sister White. I don't want you ever to quote Sister White until you get your vantage ground where you know where you are. Quote the Bible. Talk the Bible. It is full of meat, full of fatness. Carry it right out in your life, and you will know more Bible than you know now." {Spalding and Magan Collection, p. 174}

 

"The question has been asked me, 'Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?' I answer that he has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the word of truth. We (EGW includes herself) have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us." {RH, June 3, 1890 par. 2}

[Robert]

So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the Law that sets you free. 

 

Gal 3:21 For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

 

The law that brings freedom is "the Spirit of life" that was in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...

 

The law brings death - the curse.  The law places sinners in bondage.

 

16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

Now go to Romans 7:2 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

 

Try as you might you are a slave to sin.  You are a slave to your love of self.  If not, sell everything you have, give it all to the poor and walk as Christ.  He thought not, lived not for Himself.  All self-seeking is sin!  It's the essence of sin!  You are to love your neighbor as you sinfully love self.  That's why Paul said, "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

 

Agape is the fulfillment of the law.  Self-love is the fulfillment of the flesh.  

 

The only way to experience genuine growth is to 

 

1] Rest in Christ's finished works.  That means you cannot add to His complete and finished work.  This is what saves.

 

2] Remain in Him by faith.  When you do then " the law of the Spirit of life" (see Romans 8:2) that "set you free from the law of sin and death" in Christ will begin to change your heart and motives.  Then you begin to reflect God more and more as you rest in His finished work.

[Robert]

  "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

 

As Jesus hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the human race at the same time.  It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.   There's no self-interest...self-love in agape!  

[LifeHiscost]

He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.   There's no self-interest...self-love in agape!  

Exactly! It is a level that I have yet to reach. However it is a level that will be reached completely, for most if not all, at translation or the resurrection. However I think it is a goal worth continuing to strive for by placing ones' self in God's control while yet on this fallen world.

 

50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”^{.....1 Cor 15}

 

Trying to define God plus something as responsible for our salvation is impossible since every good thing is from above. Even the motivation to accept God's injunctions is a good thing (from above), as well as the free will to choose whether or not we wish His presence in our lives (a good thing). OTOH if we set our purposes at odds with His, life will be beyond our grasp.

 

10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.... Rev 4

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

 It is a level that I have yet to reach. 

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all sinned (past tense) and fall short of the glory of God (present, continuous tense)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Robert]

.... it (perfection?)  is a level that will be reached completely, for most if not all, at translation or the resurrection....

 

50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed...

 

 

We will be changed at the 2nd coming.  That means until then we remain unfit for heaven....We are only acceptable through faith in Christ's completed work accomplished through His birth, life, death and resurrection.

 

At the 2nd coming we receive our new creation that is "in Christ Jesus"  in the heavenly places.

[LifeHiscost]

We will be changed at the 2nd coming.  That means until then we remain unfit for heaven....We are only acceptable through faith in Christ's completed work accomplished through His birth, life, death and resurrection.

 

At the 2nd coming we receive our new creation that is "in Christ Jesus"  in the heavenly places.

24So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.....James 2

 

Present tense! And on the other hand, that new creation is in process presently. Anyone who has spent time with Jesus knows that to be true. That's the reason personal testimony holds so much convicting power.

 

…17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

 

12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by^c one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 1 Cor 1

 

I guess it would be recognized only by one who sees themselves as a member of the body of Christ, warts and all, cooperating with God in the here and now.

 

…11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.…Eph 4

 

…5Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God....Romans 15

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

I am saddened by this thread. I see three major problems with the thoughts being expressed:

 

1. It does not clarify the truth about hell fire, nor approach this topic from that aspect, but is approaching from more traditional presuppositions.

 

2. It holds to misconceptions about the law, including the popular but incorrect "The Two Laws" as given in "Bible Readings for the Home" and has gotten into our typical Bible studies and evangelistic meetings. Maybe try this way:

 

a.) The law of God is self sacrificing love/self renouncing love. No more and no less. The trinity exists in a righteousness by faith relationship based on this law. But we may ask what does this mean so we have

 

b.) The two great principles: to love God supremely and your neighbor as yourself.

 

Well, how do I do this?

 

c.) We have the 10 commandments, which appears to have just been 10 words that God said. There are other chapters in the Bible based on the same 10 words but with different commentary. The exodus 20 version is interestingly broken up into three thirds: The first third talks about loving God supremely. The last third talks about loving our neighbor as our selves and describes the work of the Holy Spirit in making us loving and loveable followers of the Lord. The middle third tells us that the only way we can love God supremely and our neighbors as ourselves is by resting in a relationship with God.

 

d.) The rest that we mistakenly call "the law of Moses" is simply every day applications of the law of self sacrificing love, and while the law of God is absolute, these applications are not absolute.

 

3. The third concern I have over this thread is that it is based on traditional readings of Paul. The problem with the traditional readings of Paul is that while we are reading his words, the church has been interpreting these words by:

*Events from the church-synagogue split of 135 AD

*The views of St. Augustine

*The issues of the 1500s and the reformation.

as well as other layers of church history. Unfortunately, despite having Paul's words, the translations and interpretations that we read into these words have very little of Paul's thought and we miss what he was trying to say. In recent decades there have been tremendous breakthroughs of removing the filters that we are reading Paul through and getting back to what it would have meant at his time. For a good overview of these discoveries and a good bibliography of where to go for more study may I recommend "Acts: New Discoveries from the Early Church." http://www.biblicalresources.net/product.cfm?product=37

 

I think that if those involved with this discussion could take a little break and review these three issues that this discussion will become much more useful.

[LifeHiscost]

I am saddened by this thread. I see three major problems with the thoughts being expressed:

I think that if those involved with this discussion could take a little break and review these three issues that this discussion will become much more useful.

I find it impossible to believe Christians have been left without a rudder, so to speak, for any length of time throughout history, especially if one adheres to this bit of coherent instruction below, though there be so many voices that if one takes their eyes off Jesus, it is understandable from the cacophony, a person's confusion.

 

16So Jesus told them, “My message is not my own; it comes from God who sent me. 17Anyone who wants to do the will of God will know whether my teaching is from God or is merely my own. 18Those who speak for themselves want glory only for themselves, but a person who seeks to honor the one who sent him speaks truth, not lies. 19Moses gave you the law, but none of you obeys it! In fact, you are trying to kill me.”

 

20The crowd replied, “You’re demon possessed! Who’s trying to kill you?”

 

21Jesus replied, “I did one miracle on the Sabbath, and you were amazed. 22But you work on the Sabbath, too, when you obey Moses’ law of circumcision. (Actually, this tradition of circumcision began with the patriarchs, long before the law of Moses.) 23For if the correct time for circumcising your son falls on the Sabbath, you go ahead and do it so as not to break the law of Moses. So why should you be angry with me for healing a man on the Sabbath? 24Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly.”....John 7

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

24So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.....James 2

 

 

You keep circling back to this, yet you never answered my question.  Why?

 

The question is what works did Rabah & Abraham perform that fulfilled the law?  Keep to the immediate context, please

[LifeHiscost]

You keep circling back to this, yet you never answered my question.  Why?

 

The question is what works did Rabah & Abraham perform that fulfilled the law?  Keep to the immediate context, please

…24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead....James 2

 

2Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.....Galatian 6

 

Rahab's carrying the burden of delivering the spies from enemy efforts plainly reveals her works. As for Abraham's performance, Jesus mentions his exploits and I''ll let you find them for they were many over a long period of time.

 

Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.…John 8

 

And what is the Law of Christ?

 

… 10"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love;  just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11"These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.…John 15

 

97O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day. 98Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, For they are ever mine.…Psalm 119

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

…24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead....James 2

 

Rahab's carrying the burden of delivering the spies from enemy efforts plainly reveals her works. As for Abraham's performance, Jesus mentions his exploits and I''ll let you find them for they were many over a long period of time.

 

 

 

What did Abraham and Rahab do?

[Robert]

What does the context reveal?

 

James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

 

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

 

There are your answers!

 

Now, how do these works answer the law?

 

The law commands, "do not kill"

 

The law commands, "do not commit adultery".  Keep in mind Rahab was still a prostitute.  So how could she be justified by works when she was breaking the law?

 

Also, she lied about the spies.  The law commands, "do not give false testimony".  So again how can she be just before God's law?

 

The answer?  They were not justified before the law.  What does Paul say?

 

"By the works of the law no person will be justified".

 

So it wasn't works of the law that proved their faith...it was something outside the law.  Do you have any ideas???? 

[Robert]

 

Go back to Gal 3:10

 

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." 

 

If you are relying on the law to justify you then you are under a curse.  Why?  Because God's law doesn't hand out credit...it does grade on the bell-curve. The law demands 100% compliance and eternal death to those who fail.  So if you think you can justify yourself, even partially, by law you are under the curse.

 

Verse 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The just by faith shall live."

 

Those justified in Christ shall live!  That's your only hope.  In Him you stand complete!

 

12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall by them live." 

 

The law doesn't care if you believe or have faith in it.  The law demands one thing:  "The one who does them shall by them live." 

[Robert]

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

 

The law commands, "do not commit adultery".  Keep in mind Rahab was still a prostitute.  So how could she be justified by works when she was breaking the law?

 

Also, she lied about the spies.  The law commands, "do not give false testimony".  So again how can she be just before God's law?

 

Rahab, like all of us, can not be just before God's law by works.

 

What then was James writing about when he said, "Rahab the prostitute (was) justified by works"?

 

It can't be justification by works of the law.

 

Then what, Works of faith?

 

What did this prostitute do that proved her faith was in God?

 

Answer:  She put her life on the line in protecting the Israeli spies!!!!  She was willing to die because her faith was in the God of Israel!

 

That's a real, genuine faith.  Faith in action....

 

To explain Abraham's work of faith would take more time....

[Robert]

My point?  James 2:24 is used frequently to support salvation by works, but the context reveals these are "works of faith" and not "works of the law".  

[Robert]

If you are relying on the law to justify you then you are under a curse.  Why?  Because God's law doesn't hand out credit...it * DOESN'T grade on the bell-curve. The law demands 100% compliance and eternal death to those who fail.  So if you think you can justify yourself, even partially, by law you are under the curse.

 

 

* Correction