The Civil Rights Movement 2.0

[bonnie]

I am aware of the reports about his past activities.  Still, choking a non-violent man to death?

Do you think this started out as a situation where the cop planned on choking a man to death? Do you think he used physical force on this man because he was black?

When a cop says you are under arrest and you start waving your arms around and telling them not to touch you,it is a pretty safe bet they will and it might be more than a touch.

Should this man have died,Of course not. Did his past and present behavior set the stage for what happened?

[bonnie]

ecember 8, 2014

A Medical Perspective on the Garner Tragedy

By G. Wesley Clark, MD

When the initial news of the death of Eric Garner occurred, it seemed a minor occurrence – very important to Mr. Garner and his family, but not a major national event.  Now it has become the genesis of nationwide mindless protests, over the supposedly lethal and irresponsible actions of a New York policeman and the subsequent decision of a Grand Jury to decline an indictment.

Having reviewed the video several times now, and being a physician who specialized in the surgery of the very obese, I believe that the cause of Mr. Garner's death was not "police brutality" or negligence, but rather the unfortunate synergy between his disease of morbid obesity and actions most police perform countless times with only transient discomfort to the arrestee.  The decision of the Grand Jury was reasonable.

Mr. Garner's demise was the consequence of a confluence of many factors, most of which were beyond the ken of a policeman, and which occurred in devastatingly rapid sequence.

Eric Garner was very obese, said to weigh at least 350 pounds.  In fact, based upon his height and appearance, he very likely weighed more than that, but very few bathroom scales read high enough to accurately measure weight of that magnitude.  By simple observation, one could see that his abdomen was very large and protuberant.  His chest was similarly blanketed with a heavy layer of fat, and he had no visible neck – no indentation under his jaw, typically present in non-obese persons, which permits application of a "chokehold," to briefly arrest the carotid circulation to render him unconscious and manageable.  The chokehold was ineffective as a control, but it served to take him to the ground by leverage.

Medically, he was said to suffer from sleep apnea, and he may well also have Pickwickian Syndrome (less picturesquely, "Obesity-hypoventilation syndrome"), which can cause resting hypoxia; low blood oxygen levels, even at rest; and altered physiological responses to high levels of carbon dioxide in the blood.  These conditions in turn lead to congestive heart failure and to sporadic loss of consciousness.  Yet another diagnosis was acute and chronic bronchial asthma, which can be activated by any acute stress, and which would further impair his respiration.

An obese male of Mr. Garner's size has enormously powerful muscle strength.  Just lifting himself out of a chair requires pressing 350 lbs.!  His legs each lift at least 350 lbs. with every step.  He was almost certainly far stronger than any of the officers attempting  to arrest him, and that required that they exert significant force to subdue him.

The tragedy developed as follows:

• The squad of officers who sought to arrest Garner was under the supervision of a sergeant who was black and female, and was therefore very unlikely to be racially motivated.

• Mr. Garner was being placed under arrest for a tax law violation related to the sale of untaxed cigarettes – a trivial offense.

• However, Mr. Garner actively resisted arrest, and that criminal offense forces the police to assert their authority, regardless of the gravity of the original crime  (next time you get a traffic ticket, refuse to sign it, and see what happens to you).

• Officer Pantaleo can be seen in the video placing his left arm alongside Mr. Garner's neck, and encircling his neck with his right arm.  However, there is no impression of Pantaleo's arm under Garner's chin, as is necessary for an effective carotid occlusion.

• The effect of Pantaleo's effort was to unbalance Garner, causing him to fall to the ground, with Pantaleo winding up on top of him.  At this point, Pantaleo can clearly be seen to release his ineffectual "chokehold" and to (roughly) hold Garner's head to the pavement while the other officers subdue him.

• It was after Pantaleo had released his hold that Garner uttered, "I can't breathe!" several times.  Garner was still alive and conscious after Pantaleo released him from the "chokehold" that supposedly (by overwhelming popular opinion) was responsible for his death!

• Mr. Garner was subdued by other officers who placed their weight on his body in order to wrest his arms behind him to apply handcuffs.

• Mr. Garner's chest capacity (vital capacity) was already seriously compromised by his obesity.  An officer's weight on his chest would further diminish his lung capacities.

• Pressure on Mr. Garner's abdomen, also exerted to subdue him, forced the enormous fatty contents of his abdomen to be pushed upward toward his chest, restricting his diaphragmatic motion, adding another factor that reduced his ability to breathe.  He was barely able to inhale enough air to gasp, "I can't breathe!"

• A normal and healthy male would have been transiently distressed by the actions of the arresting officers.  Mr. Garner had no margin of safety, no reserve at all, and was precariously unstable even before he was accosted.  The actions of the arresting officers, undoubtedly used many times before without significant ill effect, combined with Garner's pathophysiology to rapidly produce hypoxia, very likely aggravated by carbon dioxide retention and narcosis, which suppresses the normal reflex to breathe.  This was rapidly followed by cardiac arrhythmia and death.

Unfortunately, when Mr. Garner became unconscious from hypoxia and carbon dioxide narcosis, the officers appeared bewildered and evidently did not realize that Mr. Garner was rapidly dying from cessation of his breathing and then of his cardiac activity. 

The subsequent post-mortem examination is said to have shown no evidence of injury to either the larynx or the hyoid bone, which is almost always fractured in cases of strangulation.  Mr. Garner is said to have died from "chest compression" and associated heart disease.

Few persons, undoubtedly including most police officers and even Mr. Garner, would understand the gravity and complex pathophysiology of this condition, and the rapidity with which it can become irreversible, unless an airway and mechanical ventilation can be quickly administered – and establishing an airway in a very obese person is itself extremely challenging even under ideal conditions, such as in an operating room, let alone on the sidewalk. 

Eric Garner's death had essentially nothing to do with racism or racial animosity, particularly when one can see an African-American female sergeant, in charge at the scene, standing and observing the arrest in the background.  Ultimately, as the senior officer on the scene, she was responsible for Mr. Garner's safety, although it would be unreasonable to incriminate her, either, given the obscure physiology of the chain of events that led to his unfortunate demise. 

Needless to say, the facts will have little influence on racial demagogues, such as Al Sharpton and President Obama, as they seek to racially divide our nation and generate racial hatred.

When the initial news of the death of Eric Garner occurred, it seemed a minor occurrence – very important to Mr. Garner and his family, but not a major national event.  Now it has become the genesis of nationwide mindless protests, over the supposedly lethal and irresponsible actions of a New York policeman and the subsequent decision of a Grand Jury to decline an indictment.

 

Having reviewed the video several times now, and being a physician who specialized in the surgery of the very obese, I believe that the cause of Mr. Garner's death was not "police brutality" or negligence, but rather the unfortunate synergy between his disease of morbid obesity and actions most police perform countless times with only transient discomfort to the arrestee.  The decision of the Grand Jury was reasonable.

 

Mr. Garner's demise was the consequence of a confluence of many factors, most of which were beyond the ken of a policeman, and which occurred in devastatingly rapid sequence.

Eric Garner was very obese, said to weigh at least 350 pounds.  In fact, based upon his height and appearance, he very likely weighed more than that, but very few bathroom scales read high enough to accurately measure weight of that magnitude.  By simple observation, one could see that his abdomen was very large and protuberant.  His chest was similarly blanketed with a heavy layer of fat, and he had no visible neck – no indentation under his jaw, typically present in non-obese persons, which permits application of a "chokehold," to briefly arrest the carotid circulation to render him unconscious and manageable.  The chokehold was ineffective as a control, but it served to take him to the ground by leverage.

Medically, he was said to suffer from sleep apnea, and he may well also have Pickwickian Syndrome (less picturesquely, "Obesity-hypoventilation syndrome"), which can cause resting hypoxia; low blood oxygen levels, even at rest; and altered physiological responses to high levels of carbon dioxide in the blood.  These conditions in turn lead to congestive heart failure and to sporadic loss of consciousness.  Yet another diagnosis was acute and chronic bronchial asthma, which can be activated by any acute stress, and which would further impair his respiration.

An obese male of Mr. Garner's size has enormously powerful muscle strength.  Just lifting himself out of a chair requires pressing 350 lbs.!  His legs each lift at least 350 lbs. with every step.  He was almost certainly far stronger than any of the officers attempting  to arrest him, and that required that they exert significant force to subdue him.

The tragedy developed as follows:

• The squad of officers who sought to arrest Garner was under the supervision of a sergeant who was black and female, and was therefore very unlikely to be racially motivated.

• Mr. Garner was being placed under arrest for a tax law violation related to the sale of untaxed cigarettes – a trivial offense.

• However, Mr. Garner actively resisted arrest, and that criminal offense forces the police to assert their authority, regardless of the gravity of the original crime  (next time you get a traffic ticket, refuse to sign it, and see what happens to you).

• Officer Pantaleo can be seen in the video placing his left arm alongside Mr. Garner's neck, and encircling his neck with his right arm.  However, there is no impression of Pantaleo's arm under Garner's chin, as is necessary for an effective carotid occlusion.

• The effect of Pantaleo's effort was to unbalance Garner, causing him to fall to the ground, with Pantaleo winding up on top of him.  At this point, Pantaleo can clearly be seen to release his ineffectual "chokehold" and to (roughly) hold Garner's head to the pavement while the other officers subdue him.

• It was after Pantaleo had released his hold that Garner uttered, "I can't breathe!" several times.  Garner was still alive and conscious after Pantaleo released him from the "chokehold" that supposedly (by overwhelming popular opinion) was responsible for his death!

• Mr. Garner was subdued by other officers who placed their weight on his body in order to wrest his arms behind him to apply handcuffs.

• Mr. Garner's chest capacity (vital capacity) was already seriously compromised by his obesity.  An officer's weight on his chest would further diminish his lung capacities.

• Pressure on Mr. Garner's abdomen, also exerted to subdue him, forced the enormous fatty contents of his abdomen to be pushed upward toward his chest, restricting his diaphragmatic motion, adding another factor that reduced his ability to breathe.  He was barely able to inhale enough air to gasp, "I can't breathe!"

• A normal and healthy male would have been transiently distressed by the actions of the arresting officers.  Mr. Garner had no margin of safety, no reserve at all, and was precariously unstable even before he was accosted.  The actions of the arresting officers, undoubtedly used many times before without significant ill effect, combined with Garner's pathophysiology to rapidly produce hypoxia, very likely aggravated by carbon dioxide retention and narcosis, which suppresses the normal reflex to breathe.  This was rapidly followed by cardiac arrhythmia and death.

Unfortunately, when Mr. Garner became unconscious from hypoxia and carbon dioxide narcosis, the officers appeared bewildered and evidently did not realize that Mr. Garner was rapidly dying from cessation of his breathing and then of his cardiac activity. 

The subsequent post-mortem examination is said to have shown no evidence of injury to either the larynx or the hyoid bone, which is almost always fractured in cases of strangulation.  Mr. Garner is said to have died from "chest compression" and associated heart disease.

Few persons, undoubtedly including most police officers and even Mr. Garner, would understand the gravity and complex pathophysiology of this condition, and the rapidity with which it can become irreversible, unless an airway and mechanical ventilation can be quickly administered – and establishing an airway in a very obese person is itself extremely challenging even under ideal conditions, such as in an operating room, let alone on the sidewalk. 

Eric Garner's death had essentially nothing to do with racism or racial animosity, particularly when one can see an African-American female sergeant, in charge at the scene, standing and observing the arrest in the background.  Ultimately, as the senior officer on the scene, she was responsible for Mr. Garner's safety, although it would be unreasonable to incriminate her, either, given the obscure physiology of the chain of events that led to his unfortunate demise. 

Needless to say, the facts will have little influence on racial demagogues, such as Al Sharpton and President Obama, as they seek to racially divide our nation and generate racial hatred.

 

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/a_medical_perspective_on_the_garner_tragedy.html#ixzz3LKYsAwVH 

[CoAspen]

What the Dr? says may be true, but such a 'review' of patient symptoms without actually 'seeing' the patient makes it all conjecture and unreliable for diagnosis. Could not find the credentials for the Dr?

In the end it is an opinion piece.

[bonnie]

What the Dr? says may be true, but such a 'review' of patient symptoms without actually 'seeing' the patient makes it all conjecture and unreliable for diagnosis. Could not find the credentials for the Dr?

In the end it is an opinion piece.

I am pretty sure that it was intended to be an opinion piece. Some things cannot be disputed however.

It is an "opinion" this was racially motivated and is being presented as fact by many. 

Does anyone really think that the intent was to kill this man in full view of many witnesses?

 

• The squad of officers who sought to arrest Garner was under the supervision of a sergeant who was black and female, and was therefore very unlikely to be racially motivated.

• Mr. Garner was being placed under arrest for a tax law violation related to the sale of untaxed cigarettes – a trivial offense.

• However, Mr. Garner actively resisted arrest, and that criminal offense forces the police to assert their authority, regardless of the gravity of the original crime  (next time you get a traffic ticket, refuse to sign it, and see what happens to you).

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What the Dr? says may be true, but such a 'review' of patient symptoms without actually 'seeing' the patient makes it all conjecture and unreliable for diagnosis. Could not find the credentials for the Dr?

In the end it is an opinion piece.

 

he's a California surgeon who primarily does gastric bypass surgery... he likes to wear cowboy boots... 

http://www.gastricbypass.com/PrimaryAuthorContributor.htm

[CoAspen]

Thanks rudy

[Gerr]

Do you think this started out as a situation where the cop planned on choking a man to death? Do you think he used physical force on this man because he was black?

When a cop says you are under arrest and you start waving your arms around and telling them not to touch you,it is a pretty safe bet they will and it might be more than a touch.

Should this man have died,Of course not. Did his past and present behavior set the stage for what happened?

I have no doubts that the policeman did NOT intend to kill Mr. Garner.  But the NYPD probably prohibited the use of a choke-hold because of the possible lethal ramifications.  People who point a "gun that is not loaded" do not intend to kill people, but someone dies anyway because the gun turns out to be loaded. 

[LifeHiscost]

The issues involved in the Brown and Garner cases are poles apart.  The former involved a violent criminal; the latter was non-violent.  I am appalled and outraged by the Garner incident.  Kill a man  for selling cigarettes?  This is insanity.

The choke hold is a method of controlling someone needing to be controlled who will not submit to lawful orders. How much pressure put into the lawful command is, more often than not, directly in contrast to the effort to avoid submission.

When enough bulk and weight is violently opposed to lawful commands, it isn't always easy to determine when far enough is reached. Even God Himself had this problem, which led to loss of life.

 

35Then it happened that night that the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead. 36So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home, and lived at Nineveh.…2 Kings 19

 

At least Sennacherib learned his lesson before things became much worse, unlike Pharoah of Egypt, or Garner.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

Referring to the reportedly large numbers of aborted black babies and the large numbers of blacks murdered by blacks, the black people should rise up against themselves and burn and loot the black neighborhoods where they live, including the abortion clinics where so many of their little ones die.

[bonnie]

I have no doubts that the policeman did NOT intend to kill Mr. Garner.  But the NYPD probably prohibited the use of a choke-hold because of the possible lethal ramifications.  People who point a "gun that is not loaded" do not intend to kill people, but someone dies anyway because the gun turns out to be loaded. 

This  and Michael Brown is being promoted thru the media and the race pimps as a race issue.   Eric Garner did not die because of selling illegal cigarettes. He died because he resisted arrest. It certainly was not worth a life.OTOH, once you resist arrest,your kind and gentle treatment is likely to end,regardless of what color you are.

It is interesting in the Eric Garner case that a female black supervisor was standing right there watching. It seems she may have been given immunity from prosecution . I believe the supervisor in the Rodney King incident was charged and went to jail. How does that work?

[Gerr]

It is fundamentally a Judaical, police and economic issue. The judicial system is there to serve the white majority. To protect them and serve them. Black people, Latinos, and poor people are disproportionally affected by these issues. White's people use weed about the same as Black people but the arrest rates are higher for blacks. White police officers give white kids more of a pass because the white kid could be their son or brother. It's that simple.

 

See the criming while White twitter trend:

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/criming-while-white-after-eric-garner-2014-12

 

White folks generally can't relate to the perspectives of black people because they have not had a negative encounter with police.

I am not white, and I've had my share of encounters with the highway cops.  A negative encounter can work both ways.  I've never been given a hard time because I was always respectful.

[Kountzer]

As an employee I didn't feel it was my place to request a video to be able to show Kountzer.

I trust what u say about as much as i trust nypd

[lazarus]

I am not white, and I've had my share of encounters with the highway cops.  A negative encounter can work both ways.  I've never been given a hard time because I was always respectful.

 

Are you Black or Latino, or asian ? What are you? Interesting conclusion you draw. So are you saying that whenever people are brutalized by the police it is because they are being disrespectful?

[lazarus]

I'm wondering how black police officers deal with arrests vs letting crimes "slip by".  Do they give white kids a break in the same manner that white officers do?  And are they as hard on the black population as the white officers?  

 

The NYC officer who used the choke hold was completely out of line and I can't figure out how the Grand Jury saw fit to dismiss charges.  That blows me away....

 

Who knows. My guess is that some black officers might give black kids a pass but the percentage of black officers is relatively small. Here's one black St louis cop's perspective:

 

 

On Tuesday, August 27, The Free Thought Project’s Cassandra Rules, met up with the officer on W. Florissant in Ferguson where protesters have been gathering in the streets since the murder of unarmed teenager Mike Brown.  Gore wanted to explain the parallels, and differences, between him and Darren Wilson. He also wanted to show how rampant racism in the police force is not only directed at the people, but also at officers themselves. Anyone with the guts to speak out against them also faces a slew of backlash.

 

Gore began by candidly giving The Free Thought Project the play by play on the events leading to his charges. He explains the corruption during his investigation, points out his PTSD, and speaks out against seeing our streets littered with the weapons that he saw on the field at war.

“I’ve been embedded in St. Louis County for 14 years and I am going to tell you this on camera, that’s the worst entity I have ever worked for. I’ve been in the military, I’ve served the St. Louis metropolitan police department… but when I got there I ran into this big wall of cultural bias that I had never seen before.”

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/suspended-st-louis-officer-speaks-darren-wilson-department/#JHlKIzE8YFcoZsu3.99

[lazarus]

Laz says:

"Black people have the experience of knowing that many white folks cannot relate to how they feel, and their white privilege and feelings of supremacy do not allow them to empathize."

 

​I'm not sure the "feelings of supremacy" part is applicable to all whites (are you profiling?  ; but folks who have never been unjustly discriminated against can't truly empathize with those who have, cuz it's outside of their realm of experience.

 

 

I'm not saying all. I think I said many. I think we seen it in this thread. Rather than discuss the issue there is a reflex action that involves denigrating black people. It's rather pathetic.

[lazarus]

Referring to the reportedly large numbers of aborted black babies and the large numbers of blacks murdered by blacks, the black people should rise up against themselves and burn and loot the black neighborhoods where they live, including the abortion clinics where so many of their little ones die.

Do you think think that white people should riot. 41% of the babies aborted are white, roughly 20 million.

Should you not riot about whites killing whites:

 

83 percent of white victims were killed by white offenders; 90 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders; 14 percent of white victims were killed by black offenders; and 7.6 percent of black victims were killed by white offenders.

 

If black people killing black people is a problem. White on white crime is also a problem. Burn your own house down. The reason why you don't is because you don't know what's going on in your own country. 

[lazarus]

Not so fast, professor.  The crime rate among blacks is totally disproportionate to their representation ratio in the American population. 

 

And so what is your conclusion about this?

[Kountzer]

Oh, you'd rather trust the looters, arsonists, and thieves, and liars in Ferguson?

I really haven't kept up with the chaos in Ferguson.  To borrow from MLK and I am paraphrasing "rioting is the language of the unheard".  Black people are the majority in that area, but the police and government is mostly all white.  

 

Besides, black people didn't invent rioting in this country.  There have been riots by white people throughout the history of this country, some recent.  There were the zoot suits riots, the huntington beach riots of 2013, ncaa football and basketball championship riots, detroit riot, omaha riot.  All these were white and or latino riots.  Blacks learned rioting from main stream america.

[Kountzer]

Most of us see our history of slavery, Jim Crow, and lynchings as shameful and repellent, yet still believe the black-as-criminal attitude is justified based on current crime fears. Is it? 

It depends on what we choose to fear. How about serial killers? What criminal is more terrifying than a madman killing again and again, escaping the law?  America’s most notorious serial killers, striking fear as their body counts mount, have almost always turned out to be white, and gruesome beyond imagining. Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler, terrorized his city in the 1960s, sexually assaulting and murdering thirteen women. David Berkowitz, New York City’s “son of Sam,” killed six and wounded seven in the late 1970s, terrifying the city until his apprehension.Ted Bundy, who called himself “the most coldhearted son of a bitch you’ll ever meet,” confessed to thirty murders in the 1970s. He was on the loose, killing women in Washington, Idaho, Utah, and Colorado for years before he was apprehended. Chicago serial killer John Wayne Gacy, who dressed as a clown and performed at children’s hospitals, murdered thirty-three teenaged boys and young men in the 1970s, burying twenty-seven in the crawl space under his house.  He described his sexual release in committing murder as “the ultimate thrill.” Gary Ridgeway, Washington State’s Green River Killer, was convicted of killing forty-eight girls and young women but admitted to ninety murders during the 1980s and 1990s. He returned to the corpses he left along the river to have sexual intercourse with them. Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, killed three and terrorized many others, sending mail bombs with his anti-technology screeds to universities and airports for seventeen years, until 1995. Jeffrey Dahmer, the Milwaukee Cannibal, raped, murdered, and dismembered seventeen men and boys over thirteen years, until 1991. Dennis Rader, known as BTK for his signature “bind, torture, and kill” modus operandi, killed ten in Wichita, Kansas and was on the loose for decades until his 2005 apprehension.  

Though each of these men was white, striking again and again in towns and cities...

[lazarus]

Imagine if African American men and boys were committing mass shootings month after month, year after year. Articles and interviews would flood the media, and we’d have political debates demanding that African Americans be “held accountable.” Then, if an atrocity such as the Newtown, Conn., shootings took place and African American male leaders held a news conference to offer solutions, their credibility would be questionable. The public would tell these leaders that they need to focus on problems in their own culture and communities.

 

But when the criminals and leaders are white men, race and gender become the elephant in the room.

Nearly all of the mass shootings in this country in recent years — not just Newtown, Aurora, Fort Hood, Tucson and Columbine — have been committed by white men and boys.

 

When white men try to divert attention from gun control by talking about mental health issues, many people buy into the idea that the United States has a national mental health problem, or flawed systems with which to address those problems, and they think that is what produces mass shootings.

 

What facets of white male culture create so many mass shootings?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/white-men-have-much-to-discuss-about-mass-shootings/2013/03/29/7b001d02-97f3-11e2-814b-063623d80a60_story.html

[lazarus]

Lyndon, what you posted has nothing to do with mass shootings.

[Kountzer]

Oh, you'd rather trust the looters, arsonists, and thieves, and liars in Ferguson?

Thieves, thugs lies and liars?  This country was founded on lies and thuggery.  The police told a lie when they said they warned twelve year old Tamir Rice.  They just drove up and blew that kid away in less than two seconds.  After that tackled his 14 year old sister then handcuffed her and threw her in the back on a squad car.  Dang, makes me proud to be an american.

 

 They lied to the native americans, numerous times.  Lying & thuggery is in this countrie's historical and biological DNA.  Like the time Abe Lincoln backed off a deal with the Santee Sioux in Minnesota in 1862.  Promised them 1.6 million for a whole bunch of land, and some food.  Gave the good food to white settlers and gave the indians spoiled food not fit for a dog. When some of the hungry indians stole some eggs from the settlers in that area the result was 38 Sioux getting lynched, in the largest mass hanging in one day, in American history, that we know about anyway.  Ole honest abe wanted to hang 300 or more, but he was concerned that the european countries would join the South in the civil war.

If that ain't being a thug I don't know what is.  They made up for that in 1890 when they massacred 200 or so at Wounded Knee.

 

Ole Unc is a hypocrite.  The founding fathers talked bill of rights, and all that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness while all the time holding slaves.  They talk taking the high road when all along the cia is torturing prisoners, using water boarding, etc.

 

They talk about being a christian nation but all the time speaking like a dragon.  

 

When u talk about riots and lies in ferguson you should be used to it.  It is in your history and DNA.

[CoAspen]

Personal comment, my thought...what we see happening is a human condition, regardless of race, creed, color or religion. As a christian, I believe that it is the DNA of sin. Since the beginning of the Bible, selfishness, my definition being 'only concern for ones own self and personal desires', has been expressed in a variety of ways and quite often violence, maybe most often.  Finger pointing or blame will give us no solution but a perpetuation of same.

 

Anyone for solutions, real, everyday ones???

[Kountzer]

Does it really matter? I think I covered that in my last sentance. Does it matter whether you were killed one at a time or all at once? Which way would you prefer to die if it came to that? And if you want horrific mass murder, what about Rwanda, or Captain Buck Naked, or any other mass killings in Africa?

Evil behavior is NOT the exclusive property of any racial group or sex.

BTW, Colin Ferguson was a mass murderer. So, yes, my posting is related to mass murder.

(Captain Buck Naked was a terrorist leader in Africa often credited with killing 20,000 of his fellow countrymen in a civil war. Today, he preaches the gospel. Is there any limit to the amount of evil that one person can turn from and still be saved?)

 Whatever atrocities that happen in africa didn't come about in a vacuum.  Money grubbing and natural resource stealing europeans have been meddling in the affairs of the countries in africa for centuries.  

[lazarus]

What facets of white male culture create so many mass shootings?

 

Does it really matter?

 

All of a sudden it doesn't matter. The point of the article that I posted was that white society talks about white crimes in a totally different way. When it is a black criminal it is pathologised when it is a white criminal then there is some kind of mitigation. So the question remains.....What facets of white male culture create so many mass shootings?