"Holy Father" justified by Catholics

[Robert]

Joe, my rant is against the Pope, not Catholics per se.    

[Gregory Matthews]

JoMo said:

 

 

 

 Non-Catholics are allowed to receive communion.

 

The above is true, but only to a very limited extent.  To simplify it:  Persons who do not believe in the real presence in the Mass are not allowed to receive consecrated elements.  They may attend and participate in the other aspects of the Mass, but they may not receive consecrated elements.

 

However,  the priest is not required to question every person as to a belief in the real presence.  Therefore a person may present themselves, and receive the consecrated elements, who does not believe as required.  Typically in a parish setting the priest will know the people and the requirement will be met.  However, Roman Catholic priests who are university chaplains will probably not know their student well enough know if the believe as required, so people who do not believe may sneak in and receive the elements.

 

My major source of information for this came from the monthly publication that outlined the service of the Mass for each Sunday and Holy Day of that month.  This was a publication that was used across the entire United States by Roman Catholic priests governed by the Military Archdiocese.  The inside front cover, each month,  contained a statement as to who could receive the consecrated elements and w ho could not and people wer asked to abide by those  restrictions.  I have simplified it a bit in my statement of the requirements. 

 

To prevent some misunderstanding, I will clarify it a bit.  The document that I referenced contained a listing of the denominations that were not Roman Catholic whose members were allowed to receive the consecrated elements of the Mass.  People from other denominations were excluded. There were some other aspects of that permission, but, I do not want to get to detailed. 

[JoeMo]

Maybe it's just because we're personal friends, but the priests I know understand that I am no longer Catholic; but they still serve me communion when I go to mass at their church.

 

Catholics are like Adventists in the sense that most of them don't require 100% compliance to remain a member in good standing; as long as your non-compliance is discrete and PC.  It all depends on how you define your disagreement.  For example, ministers may get away with saying that they don't believe that every word which proceedeth from the mouth of EGW proceedeth from the mouth of God.

But it is less liely that he will get away with it if he says Ted Wilson is an idiot because he believes ... (I'm not saying Ted Wilson is an idiot, lest someone read this wrong).

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K.  Now we understand.

[Robert]

9.And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven....Matt 23

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

By this Christ clearly was speaking of "spiritual leaders". See the context of Matt 23.

 

Well, not only does the Pope (Papa/Father) allow himself to be addressed as such, but he also accepts the adjective, "Holy".

[Robert]

Part of the financing of St. Peter's Basilica was based on corruption - the sell of indulgences.

 

"One method employed to finance the building of St. Peter's Basilica was the granting of indulgences in return for contributions" (Wikipedia)

[Robert]

By this Christ clearly was speaking of "spiritual leaders". See the context of Matt 23.

 

 

With this in mind let's review Matt 19:16,17

 

16 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?'" 

 

What did Jesus state in Matt 23:10

 

"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ"

 

Note though the adjective "good" as in "good master"!

 

17"So He (Jesus) said to him (the rich man), 'Why do you call Me good?'"

 

Keep in mind this rich man wasn't addressing Christ as the Son of God.  He was addressing him as a teacher of the law - a mere Rabbi, that is to say, a spiritual leader.

 

What was Christ reply?

 

"No one is good but One, that is, God."

 

So words like "good" & "holy" are adjectives that describe God, not man.  To use is towards a man is blasphemy.  

[Robert]

RCC teaches that "the Pope is set apart for God in a special way as the HOLY Father, the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter.”

 

This claim is heretical. Jesus is the Rock. There is no middle man between Christ and God. Anyone who dare to say there is, is essentially anti-Christ.

 

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus

[Robert]

"For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." 2 John 1:7

 

If you teach that Jesus, as the Son of Man, did not assume our fallen life, then you are essentially anti-Christ.  The RCC teaches the Immaculate Conception Dogman, which is a heresy because it rejects that Christ, as the Son of Man, took upon His Deity, our fallen, corporate life.

[Robert]

"For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." 2 John 1:7

 

If you teach that Jesus, as the Son of Man, did not assume our fallen life, then you are essentially anti-Christ.  The RCC teaches the Immaculate Conception Dogman, which is a heresy because it rejects that Christ, as the Son of Man, took upon His Deity, our fallen, corporate life.

If Christ did not assume us, in our fallen condition, then we have not been legally saved  by His doing & dying.  Hence this heresy, the IC,  attacks the gospel and the law.

 

Clearly our old life from Adam died in the humanity of the Christ. See Rom 6:6/7:4  IF not the law of God had not been satisfied because the law of God demands, "the soul that sins it must die" .  

[Gregory Matthews]

Folks, it is well known that the Roman Catholic Church differs in theology from Protestant theology--some more and some less.

 

Do we not have something better to do with our time, effort and energy than  focus on the sins of the RC Church?  Do we not have something positive in our faith and practice that we can share with joy?

[Robert]

Folks, it is well known that the Roman Catholic Church differs in theology from Protestant theology--some more and some less.

 

Do we not have something better to do with our time, effort and energy than  focus on the sins of the RC Church?

 

We can focus on the SDA church, but she is not Babylon.  Much of Paul's and John the Revelator's focus were on this subject. Apparently they thought it important.

[Gregory Matthews]

Taken as a whole, in the Bible, the Roman Catholic Church can be considered to play a minor part.    The Bible as a whole is not centered  on the RC Church.  When we center our proclamation of the RC Church we depart from the Biblical focus.

[LifeHiscost]

Folks, it is well known that the Roman Catholic Church differs in theology from Protestant theology--some more and some less.

 

Do we not have something better to do with our time, effort and energy than  focus on the sins of the RC Church?  Do we not have something positive in our faith and practice that we can share with joy?

Couldn't help but agree with you to the largest extent. OTOH, just before the Lord reveals Himself in the clouds, there is going to be a religious battle fought between those who believe the Scripture is the final authority and others who believe there is someone who holds the traditions of men should hold supreme authority, with death eventually as the penalty for not aquiescing to that idea. What would you suggest might be a good substitute for frontal revelation, especially considering there are some who believe we have, in comparison to the time it was revealed, very little time to promote what is actually taking place right at this moment of time?

 

16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six......Rev 13

 

2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,

who will prepare your way”^c —

3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for him.’ ”^{d  Mark 1}

 

^{God is Love! Jesus saves!}  

[Robert]

Taken as a whole, in the Bible, the Roman Catholic Church can be considered to play a minor part.    The Bible as a whole is not centered  on the RC Church.  When we center our proclamation of the RC Church we depart from the Biblical focus.

 

The focus of the NT is the gospel.  The Roman Church opposes the gospel.  She is the great opposition to the gospel.  The warnings are throughout the NT.

[Gregory Matthews]

LHC, The message that God wants proclaimed in End Time is found in Revelation 14:6-10.  Contrary to the thinking of some, the focus of that passage is on God and His activity in human life. It is not focused on the Roman Catholic Church.

 

On a number of occasions I have preached on that passage, on Sunday morning, in a Protestant pulpit and not mentioned the Roman Catholic Church once.  Here is a brief and simplified form is the fundamental content of that passage:

 

1st Angel:  Time is coming to an end.  God's message for this time is that which God has caused to be proclaimed from the beginning.  The God who is to be worshiped is the God who is responsible for the creation of all that exists. 

 

2nd Angel:  That which is proclaimed in the name of God may not actually be from God.

 

3rd Angel:   The time is now to make the decision that will determine one's eternal destiny--eternity with God or an end to it all. 

[Robert]

Highly paraphrased too...

[Robert]

1st message

 

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people......Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

That is the first angel’s message. What does John see? He sees an angel. What does the word “angel” mean? Messenger. “Fly in the midst of heaven.” This is a messenger from who? From God. So the message is not a horizontal message; it is a vertical message from God. That’s what it means, “In the midst of heaven.” God commissions the angel, “You go, and proclaim this message.”

 

Now the angel doesn’t do it by himself; he does it through the church. But the message is from heaven; it’s from God. And the message, as we saw, is the everlasting gospel. It is the righteousness of God made effective by faith, therefore, in verity, it’s righteousness by faith. And it is to be preached to “every nation and kindred and tongue and people.” In other words, this is the message that is the fulfilment of Matthew 24:14, where Jesus said that one of the events that will take place before the end comes is that “this gospel will be preached unto all nations, and the end will come.” This is God’s final plea to the human race to accept this gift of salvation. [JS]

[Robert]

2nd message:

 

And there followed another angel (message), saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

 

At the heart of the fall of Babylon is self, self exalted in the place of God:

 

2 Thess 2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the 2nd coming) will not come unless the falling away comes first (the fall of Babylon - the great apostasy), and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

[Robert]

3rd message

 

And the Third Angel followed them saying with a loud voice , If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation: and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

Now we as a church have identified the beast as the papal system, not necessarily the Roman Catholic Christians, but the system, and the image as apostate Protestantism in the U.S. But the thing I want you to notice is that both these powers, both these agents have received power from the dragon who is defined in Revelation 12:9 as Satan, the serpent. 

 

Now, if the seal of God represents the righteousness of God which is received by faith (or righteousness by faith), then, folks, the mark of the beast must represent self-righteousness (or dependence on self). And so you have here two principles, God’s righteousness, and man’s righteousness. You have God’s love, and the principle of self. And these two are in opposition. In other words, what will happen is that when the Three Angels’ Message, the everlasting gospel, is proclaimed clearly and universally, the world will be divided into only two camps, no more. There will be nobody sitting on the fence.

 

Those who accept Christ as their righteousness and who have no confidence in the flesh will be sealed with the seal of God. Those who willfully and deliberately reject this everlasting gospel and turn to their own ways, will receive the mark of the beast. [JS]

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert said:

 

 

Highly paraphrased too...

 

Yes, you are correct.  Here is what I had previously said:

 

 

 Here is a brief and simplified form is the fundamental content of that passage:

 

So, what is your point in pointing out, correctly, that my statement was highly paraphrased?

[Robert]

That you can make the Bible state just about anything if you paraphrase.

[LifeHiscost]

LHC, The message that God wants proclaimed in End Time is found in Revelation 14:6-10.  Contrary to the thinking of some, the focus of that passage is on God and His activity in human life. It is not focused on the Roman Catholic Church.

 

3rd Angel:   The time is now to make the decision that will determine one's eternal destiny--eternity with God or an end to it all. 

Many could lose sight of that above if this below were not broadcast, much as Eve was deceived. If it could happen to someone before the fall, what would there be with fallen humans that could prevent it from happening?

 

…2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.…2 Thess 2

 

As to the last thought, I'm satisfied this addresses that from before the time it was voiced.

 

1And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- 2for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "-- 2 Cor  Emphasis theirs' LHC

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!