China would win war with USA

[bevin]

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In Bible prophecy, terms like "waters" or "sea" represents "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." (Rev. 17:15)

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The woman flees into the DESERT (Rev 17:3) AND IN THE DESERT becomes a harlot - so much for the Old World being the sea - because the Old World is the DESERT (no water)...

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America in particular arose out of what had been sparsely populated wilderness?

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Actually - no. There were millions of people here.

American population HIGHER THAN EUROPE when pilgrims arrived

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Prior to the arrival of European invaders, the native population of North and South American was 100 million in 1492. The entire population of Europe at the time was 70 million. If colonists had not been able to

take over lands that the Indians had already cleared and cultivated, and if the Indian population had not been devastated by disease, there might not have been any colonization at all.

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Horns in Bible prophecy connote strength of a nation

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Err, no - horns denote KINGS and KINGDOMS

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Uniquely in the world's democracies, America has two major political parties which wield power. And

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Surely you are joking. Many Western countries have two major political parties.

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And also notice that the horns are not crowned, like the horns of the first beast, indicating that the power of the nation does not come from royalty.

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When the two-horned beast comes charging across the Euphrates, they are not crowned - and yet we know it was the Medes and the Persians with kings

/Bevin

[Derrell M]

Yep, that too. As far as I can see, interpretation of Biblical prophecy is strictly theory. Sometimes educated theory, but still theory. Theory is not fact, it is an idea of a possibility.

Why can't China be one of the beasts or dragons? They have been symbolized by such things for the last couple thousand years and they are a great military power. They also have access to the middle east and need oil. Oh, and they have also spoken great things against the most high, and slaughtered Christians. Ah, and their deity of the sea is a woman.

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, waters and seas represented the peoples of the Old World, especially the Middle East, where kingdoms and empires arose. This is hard for anyone to dispute, since Rev. 17:15 gives us an explicit definition, and we can see plainly how the symbology was used in Daniel 7 and 8.

Rev. 12:6 says the Woman fled into the wilderness. The NIV says "desert," but most other translations say "wilderness." Bevin, I would dispute your claim that the "Woman" became the "harlot." Your interpretation is confused at this point.

In point of historical fact, the Christian survivors who rejected the growing apostasy in Rome were driven into the mountains of Italy and southwestern Europe. These kept alive the true faith for a millennium, and their faithful covert witnessing planted the spiritual seeds that finally germinated and bore fruit in the Protestant Reformation. Later Christian dissenters found safe haven in America.

The idea that America was more populated than Europe is preposterous. When the European colonists first arrived, what they found mainly was primeval forest, and a few scattered Indian tribes. America grew out of the colonies, it did not grow out of the Indians, who were mostly slaughtered, and the surviors shunted off to reservations.

If you want to compare population numbers, you also have to take into consideration population per square mile, and focus particularly on the areas that were colonized in America vs. the areas from which refugees fled in Europe.

Every Middle Eastern and European kingdom or empire arose on the foundations of previous kingdoms and empires, during the process of successive wars. God symbolized these aggressive empire builders with animals, probably as a means of indicating that in His view, nations that engage in war of conquests are behaving like animals. There seems to be a subtle appropriateness in all the symbols that God chooses to employ.

But no previous kingdom or empire existed in America when the colonists set about building a new nation. Granted, the Indians may have been close to forming a civilization, and given another 200 years, they might have done it. But the only previous civilizations in the western hemisphere were those of the Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, Toltecs, etc. of Central and South America. Those areas are still not a part of the USA.

Horns are one of many symbols used to represent kings, kingdoms, and empires. In saying that horns represent the strength of a nation, I am going by the fact that horns are what horned beasts fight with, and this thus is a logical conclusion to draw. When God choses several different symbols for the same thing, He means something by it. Among the symbols used: mountains, horns, beasts, trees (in Daniel 4), comparison and contrast shows me the following:

Mountains focus on the fact that mountains dominate the landscape, and empires dominate the environment of the earth where people live.

Horns focus on the strength or fighting prowess of the kingdom or empire.

Beasts focus on the predatory, violent nature of kingdoms and empires that arise by means of wars of conquest.

Trees focus upon the nurturing function of governments to provide for the needs, order, economic stability and prosperity, and security of its citizens. (See Daniel 4.)

As for what the two horns of the second beast in Revelation 13 signify, you may dispute my suggestion that they in some way signify the two-party system in America. That is a guess on my part. I also suggested it might signify the duality of church and state, since the second beast will not be formed until church and state unite in America. Actually, I prefer this second interpretation.

As for the political fact you dispute, I maintain that to my knowledge, in most other democracies in the world, there are more than two parties, and they rule by coalitions. In America, virtually all power is wielded either by Republicans or Democrats, in a complicated system of shared power with repeated shifts in who is dominant. If you believe there is any other democracy on earth with a strict, two major party system, please name it.

Previous SDA commentators have suggested there is signifcance in the fact that the horns of the second beast are not crowned. And sure, as you said, Bevin, there are instances in other prophecies such as in Daniel, where horns are not crowned even though there are kings. But the beasts in Revelation 13 are different. Both represent amalgamations of church and state. Since the first beast is said to have crowns on its horns, and the second beast does not have crowns on its horns, it is fair and proper when we contrast the two beasts in this particular prophecy to try to understand the significance of the difference.

This is the attention to detail that is required of anyone who wishes to be a faithful student of Bible prophecy.

[bevin]

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Bevin, I would dispute your claim that the "Woman" became the "harlot." Your interpretation is confused at this point.

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At no point in the Book of Revelation is there EVER two women appearing together in the same prophecy. There is only one woman - starts pure, turns into a harlot, and is restored as the bride

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The idea that America was more populated than Europe is preposterous. When the European colonists first arrived, what they found mainly was primeval forest, and a few scattered Indian tribes.

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The estimates vary widely, but the claim that North America was unpopulated is simply false. There certainly was a HUGE die-off caused by European diseases - estimates run as high as 80%, and the early settlers in New England found large societies of Native American's who were basically using all the land - although a lot of it for hunting, which they made easier by keeping almost all of New England clear of underbrush.

Other population number sources can be found starting here...

Wikipedia - follow to its sources

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In America, virtually all power is wielded either by Republicans or Democrats, in a complicated system of shared power with repeated shifts in who is dominant. If you believe there is any other democracy on earth with a strict, two major party system, please name it.

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England

Furthermore, within the Republican and Democratic parties there are distinct factions, and one could easily justify calling both of these parties coalitions.

[Bravus]

...and Australia

And I've seen other estimates of the Native American population that put it at around 30 million, which may not be more than Europe but is certainly not primeval forest. And remember that an 80% death rate from disease is unprecedented: at the height of the Black Plague in Europe it was killing 30%.

(I have no horse in the 'is the US the lamb-like beast?' race - I'm just enjoying the history lesson!)

[Ron Lambert]

England is a good example of a government ruled by coalitions among several parties.

The colonists left Europe's cities and found vast tracts of land where they could colonize. They found some Indian tribes, but they did not find any cities.

Anyway, we are talking in RELATIVE terms. Of course pre-Columbian America was largely wilderness, largely unpopulated, lacking in cities, etc. The rise of America was obviously not entirely peaceful, as the surviving Amerindians well know; but that was nothing compared to the vast and continuously repeated wars of Europe and the Middle East.

As I pointed out before, in Revelation 13 we have to notice how the two beasts are contrasted. One has crowns on its horns, the other doesn't. One has ten horns, the other only two. One seems to be an amalgamation of all four of the beasts in Daniel seven, the other beast is described as "lamblike," although the image that naturally comes to mind for us Americans is a buffalo. And likewise, one beast arises out of the sea, and the other arises out of the land. If we use Rev, 17:15 and Daniel 7 and 8 to define what the "sea" signifies tht the first beast rose out of, and thus understand that sea to mean the multitudes of the Old World's populations, then we are logically forced to conclude that the land that the second beast rose out of must be something that contrasts with the the multitudes of the Old World. The only reasonable alternative is to conclude the land signifies the less inhabited New World.

[bevin]

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England is a good example of a government ruled by coalitions among several parties.

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Oh - "Since 1922, only the Conservative Party and Labour Party have been in government and official opposition. Since 1997, the Conservative Party has been in opposition to the Labour Party, led by Tony Blair. Although there are nine political parties represented in the House of Commons, three dominate the house. As of 7 May 2005, Labour holds a 66 member majority in the house with 356 Members of Parliament. The Conservatives come in second with 198 Members of Parliament and the Liberal Democrats follow with 62 Members of Parliament."

Since when does a single party with a 66 member majority count as a coalition?

[Ron Lambert]

You made my point, Bevin. As you say, nine political parties hold seats in the House of Commons, and THREE dominate. If enough of the minority parties decide to vote against the party in power, a crisis of confidence can be called, and new elections must be held.

By way of contrast, how many political parties are represented in the U.S. Congress and Senate? There are only two. The minority parties fail to elect any candidates at all, except maybe one occasionally. Generally speaking, if a legislator or senator is not a Republican or Democrat, he is considered to be an "independant"--which is not a party.

I looked up a list of political parties in England, and I counted 23. My favorite, of course, is the "Official Monster Raving Loony Party." How could anyone resist voting for that one?

[archierieus]

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bevin said:

At no point in the Book of Revelation is there EVER two women appearing together in the same prophecy. There is only one woman - starts pure, turns into a harlot, and is restored as the bride

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You seem to be assuming a chronological interpretation of the book of Revelation. Are you? Please do give cites for the sequence which you propose here. What are the textual references? Secondly, on what basis do you assert that it is a chronological sequence?

Regards, Dave

[Neil D]

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archierieus said:

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bevin said:

At no point in the Book of Revelation is there EVER two women appearing together in the same prophecy. There is only one woman - starts pure, turns into a harlot, and is restored as the bride

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You seem to be assuming a chronological interpretation of the book of Revelation. Are you? Please do give cites for the sequence which you propose here. What are the textual references? Secondly, on what basis do you assert that it is a chronological sequence?

Regards, Dave

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Best that you clarify your question....Are you asking Bevin to prove a negeitive [never two contrasting women appearing together ?] or are you asking for evidence of a chronological sequence....?

[bevin]

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bevin said:

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[:"red"]At no point in the Book of Revelation is there EVER two women appearing together in the same prophecy.[/] There is only one woman - starts pure, turns into a harlot, and is restored as the bride

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You seem to be assuming a chronological interpretation of the book of Revelation. Are you? Please do give cites for the sequence which you propose here. What are the textual references? Secondly, on what basis do you assert that it is a chronological sequence?

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My [:"red"]observation[/] is stated in plain simple English.

/Bevin

[bevin]

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how many political parties are represented in the U.S. Congress and Senate?

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Given that there are independents, Republicans who vote against the party line, Conservative and Liberal Republicans, etc. it is impossible to determine.

To use such a vague piece of political sophistry to identify the two horns is utter nonsense.

Furthermore Tony Blair is NOT ruling by a coalition.

Furthermore the USA is actually ruled by a FOUR PART system - the Congress, the Senate, the President, and the Courts.

Furthermore the USA is obviously 50 States.

You may as well argue it is the USA because it is two parts - one part east of Ol'Miss and one part west of it.

Or maybe it is male and female

Or yin and yang

/Bevin

[archierieus]

As for your 'observation'--What do you define as 'the same prophecy'? As for your conclusion--that there is only one woman--the book describes two women. You say that in fact there is only one woman. That is a conclusion. On what Scriptural basis do you say that the harlot woman is restored as the bride?

Regards, Dave

[bevin]

By prophecy, I mean in a scene that John described.

Interpreting the prophecies is what we do to these descriptions.

/Bevin

[archierieus]

Very well then, on what Scriptural basis do you say that the harlot woman is, in fact, restored as the bride? As I recall, Rev. 18 records in rather graphic detail the destruction of the harlot woman, named 'Babbylon.'

Regards, Dave

[archierieus]

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Neil D said:

Best that you clarify your question....Are you asking Bevin to prove a negeitive [never two contrasting women appearing together ?] or are you asking for evidence of a chronological sequence....?

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A couple of issues appear to this observer:

1) Bevin's statement that there is only one woman, who starts pure, turns into a harlot, and then is restored as a bride. That is an interpretation. Two women are described in the relevant chapters. That is an observation. Saying that they are, in fact, one and the same woman, is an interpretation. I am asking for the Biblical basis in the book of Revelation, for that interpretation.

2) The same statement is by its terms a chronological statement. 1) starts pure; 2) becomes a harlot; 3) is restored as the bride. I am asking for Bevin's Scriptural support for this chronological interpretation of Revelation with respect to the pure woman the harlot woman and the bride.

Regards, Dave

[Derrell M]

Dave, you state that what Bevin says is an interpretation. Is anything that you believe and state regarding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation anything other than interpretation?

Can any interpretation be described as absolute fact? Please cite.

It is my opinion that interpretation is nothing more than nebulous theory. Do you have anything of absolute substance to refute that opinion?

Are any of the interpretations that you you have declared anything more than nebulous theories? Do they have any more substance to them than anything that Bevin has declared, in terms of absolute fact? Please cite. I am very interested.

[archierieus]

I would say that in this case, there is a definite distinction between observation and interpretation. The observation is that Revelation describes two women. The interpretation includes the following: whether or not they are one and the same woman, or two separate women; and the meaning or significance of the two women described.

Interpretation certainly can occur on several levels: firstly, understanding the denotive meaning of the words used in the Bible, which can be reasonably objective; secondly, a perception of the context, which can be quite subjective; and thirdly, allegorization, which can be quite speculative. Thus, to respond to your question, the first level of interpretation can be accurate, depending on the tools which the student uses and the skill with which he applies those tools. Beyond that, venturing into the realms of context and allegorization, in my opinion it is often a crapshoot.

Regards, Dave

[Derrell M]

Thank you, Dave,

I agree that there is a definite distinction between observation and interpretation. I also agree that allegorical interpretation is largely a crapshoot. That was my position on the matter.

That aside, I do very much enjoy reading your debates and conversations.

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, who chased the "woman" into the wilderness in Revelation 12? Yes, the text says the dragon did, but whom did the dragon work through? If the woman is both the church and the harlot, as you suggested, then you have the woman chasing herself into the wilderness.

As for there being only one woman, what about all of the daughters of Babylon, mentioned in Rev. 17:5?

In Jesus' Letter to the Thyatiran Church, the church is said to have an alien intruder named Jezebel. (See Rev. 2:20-23.) So here we have a corrupt woman represented as being an intruder within the church. (Note: Jezebel was not the church, but was within the church.) It appears to me that this pagan entity (an allusion to the Old Testament character who brought her Baal worship into Israel when king Ahab married her and made her queen) is the same entity named Babylon "the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth" in Revelation 17. Also, she and her daughters are the "women" with whom the 144,000 are not defiled, as stated in Rev. 14:4.

It is really quite simple to interpret the significance of the prophetic symbol of a woman. First you establish from Scripture that woman means church. But then you must further ask whether context shows this is a corrupt woman or a pure woman, to inform you whether this is the faithful church, or a fallen church that has left the communion of truth and turned to the power of the state to give it legitimacy.

The same is true of many other prophetic symbols. The symbol of an angel represents what the word means in Greek, a messenger. But we must consult context to determine whether this is an angel of God, is "The Angel of the Lord" Himself, or is a fallen angel or devil.

The symbol of smoke in Bible prophecy connotes the manifestation of supernatural power. But we must consult context to see whether it represents divine supernatural power (the smoke in God's temple), or the Satanic, spiritualistic power of devils (that comes out of the abyss at the fifth trumpet).

In all these cases, the symbol has one consistent meaning always in all Bible prophecy. But then that meaning is subdefined by context. Woman does not mean anything other than a church. But it can be a pure church or a faction has parted company with the pure church to become its own fallen church entity. An angel is always a messenger, but it can carry a message of God, or it can be a messenger that has fallen from grace and carries a message God never gave it. The smoke can be the divine power that fills the Temple, or led the children of Israel in the Wilderness; or it can be the Satanic power of spiritualistic manifestation that will enter the fallen churches when the fifth trumpet sounds.

[archierieus]

Indeed! For that matter, the Chinese military has some surprises in the high-tech area as well. Apparently a new, small attack force within the conventional military is being developed. As I read, this special force is using the latest technology and, in fact, practicing specialized tactics which, as one of our own admirals has observed, are directed against carrier battle groups. In his estimation, the navy can no longer ensure the survivability of one of our aircraft carriers if it were sent to intervene in a Chinese assault on Taiwan. Added to that, apparently, is the verbalizd threat of nuclear holocaust.

I wonder if this scenario will indeed happen, and in this way America will be humbled and call for a return to God?

Regards, Dave

[archierieus]

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bevin said:

The woman flees into the DESERT (Rev 17:3) AND IN THE DESERT becomes a harlot . . .

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Aha! I see what this particular interpretation of prophecy appears to be doing. Since the woman in Rev. 12 is stated to have fled to 'the wilderness' (NKJV) and the harlot woman is seen in ch. 17 in 'the wilderness,' then, Bevin, from that fact alone, do you conclude that the two women are indeed one and the same? Or, do you assert other supporting information as well?

Regards, Dave

[Ron Lambert]

Thelr latest technology is that technology which they stole from us, so our military surely knows about it.

Our submarines are vastly superior to theirs (and every carrier task force includes several attack subs to protect the carrier from enemy subs), and our anti-missile gattling guns and anti-missile Patriot type missiles can shoot down any surface-to-surface or air-to-surface missiles they launch. All they can do is launch hundreds of missiles all at once, and hope to overwhelm the defences. But those missiles cost a million bucks apiece, so we can afford to build alot more than they can.

Our ships and aircraft have for a long time been hardened against EMP (ElectroMagnetic Pulse), so they wouldn't get anywhere with EMP weapons.

Maybe they could try guiding flights of birds infected with bird flu at our ships.

Or maybe they could try sonic weapons. Of course, if they got close enough to use them, they would be in range of our heavy metal and punk rock.

The bottom line is this: So far, the Chinese military is all talk. They have never demonstrated any capability of being any where near in the same league with the U.S. military, on land, at sea, or in the air. Their current government will probably fall within the next five years or so, anyway. And then all the bird flu-infected chickens will come home to roost, and the communist tyrants will have to answer for all their atrocities against their own people.

We can make peace with the new democratic government that emerges, and trade with them as equal partners, like we do with Japan, and Taiwan. THEN China and Taiwan can truly and safely and fairly reunite.

[bevin]

Ron wrote...

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Bevin, who chased the "woman" into the wilderness in Revelation 12? Yes, the text says the dragon did, but whom did the dragon work through?

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If you want to invent organizations and symbols not mentioned in the Bible, perhaps he worked through rodents, as symbolized by Mickey Mouse?

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13. And when the [:"red"]dragon[/] saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the [:"red"]serpent[/].

15. And the [:"red"]serpent[/] cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the [:"red"]dragon[/] cast out of his mouth.

17. And the [:"red"]dragon[/] was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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First you establish from Scripture that woman means church.

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Which you have failed to do - in addition to failing to show two women in existence at the same time.

/Bevin

[bevin]

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Patriot type missiles can shoot down any surface-to-surface or air-to-surface missiles they launch.

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The Patriot success rate in Desert Storm was woeful - despite the lies told by the administration at the time

See here

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All they can do is launch hundreds of missiles all at once, and hope to overwhelm the defences. But those missiles cost a million bucks apiece, so we can afford to build alot more than they can.

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Err, no - breaking the launcher into pieces, including several much lighter dummy warheads, using ECM, and using nuclear warheads COMPLETELY invalidates your point

/Bevin