Lineman Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) In a youth Sabbath School class the teacher asked the question if God ever stop loving someone. Does He? Edited May 17, 2015 by Tom Wetmore reframed as a non-quote... Quote Visit and Share the BibleTimelines.com URL ! (Explain the Gospel in just a few minutes, or maybe even seconds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 7, 2015 Members Share Posted January 7, 2015 I would say absolutely not. Even unto death does he love us. Unchained 1 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 7, 2015 Members Share Posted January 7, 2015 I don't think God stops loving the *person*.... but He can have godly emotions of "love," or "hate" of someone's specific behavior... phkrause 1 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't even think it is possible to do anything that would cause God to stop loving us. If He knows everything that ever has happened, is happening, or will happen, He knew everything that we would ever do in advance; so how could we do anything that would either disappoint or impress Him? How could we do anything to make Him love us any more or less than He already does? Kevin H and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted January 8, 2015 Moderators Share Posted January 8, 2015 No, God never stops loving. As I understand what the Bible and Mrs. White teaches about hellfire, this is the very thing that makes hell hell. We, all of us have two attitudes fighting inside of ourselves. The first is the sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. To esteem ourselves more highly than our breathern, to serve self, to seek the highest place; to serve the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life. But in Genesis 3:15 we received our deepest desire: something in us that wants to be like and with Jesus. To want to love the world as Jesus has loved it. These two attitudes are fighting in us. We are constantly making choices that places one more in power in our lives and the other less in power in our lives. However, even at our best there is tinged with selfishness, the sinful nature. And even at our worst there is still something there, no matter how perverted, of wanting to love the world as Jesus has loved it. At the end when "Fire comes down from God out of heaven" it is where the lost see Jesus and God the Father in all their glory and beauty and love. The lost see God and are overwhelmed by God's beauty. Jesus is the one altogether lovely, the desire of ages, great joy to ALL people (not just the honest in heart or good people) the desire of nations, the one beloved of women, the one more desirable than gold and sweeter than the honey. God's nature is to love them. The Holy Spirit's nature is to point them to the beauty of Jesus. The lost are overwhelmed with this. God does everything short of forcing the will. The lost want to come. They see loved ones they long to be with, and the longing to be with them pales in comparison with their longing to be with Jesus. But Jesus in John 3 says that they are lost because they refuse to come for fear that their deeds will be exposed. They are unforgiving people, and as they see the ugliness of their sins in contrast to his beauty they feel that God can't forgive them and will sooner or later going to get them for their sins, so they refuse to yield to his love and the drawing power of the Holy Spirit. They spent their life resisting the Spirit and this has become characteristic of them and despite their wanting to come, they refuse to come. They want to but they wont. If God was to stop loving them it would cease to be hell and they would just resign to their lot. But it is this stalemate of God constantly loving and drawing them doing everything short of forcing their will and their longing to yield and being so attracted to Jesus, but their refusal to yield that makes this experience hell. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted January 8, 2015 Moderators Share Posted January 8, 2015 Oh, and since the fire is God's love, when does the fire burn out?... It never does. The fire is everlasting. We are either consumed by it and die or live in it forever. phkrause and JoeMo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lineman Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 I guess my question goes beyond the here and now. After the sinner has "perished" (John 3:16) will God's love stop then? If the sinner is gone there will be nothing more to love. Quote Visit and Share the BibleTimelines.com URL ! (Explain the Gospel in just a few minutes, or maybe even seconds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 10, 2015 Members Share Posted January 10, 2015 When you have a loved one die, do you still love them?? I still love my dad, and he's been resting for 15 years now. I say that God will love those that are not with him in heaven and the earth made new, forever!! Kevin H 1 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lineman Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 PK, very good post! I agree, but wont that be painful for God 20,000,000,000 years down the line? Will He carry that pain thru all eternity? Kevin H 1 Quote Visit and Share the BibleTimelines.com URL ! (Explain the Gospel in just a few minutes, or maybe even seconds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 10, 2015 Members Share Posted January 10, 2015 I guess that will be something we can ask Jesus when we are face to face with him! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lineman Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 Kevin H, where did you get that the fire is God's love? I have not heard that before? Quote Visit and Share the BibleTimelines.com URL ! (Explain the Gospel in just a few minutes, or maybe even seconds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted January 10, 2015 Moderators Share Posted January 10, 2015 It is one of the two understandings that you will run into in our schools. There was at least one pastor, his name was Fifield (spelling?) who was teaching this in the 1800s, a friend of the Whites. There may have been others as well. Then Lynn Harper Wood (who has a building named after him at Southern) came to this understanding in the 1920s. A number of his students taught it, such as Paul Heubech and Felix Lorenz. Others learned it from him but never really learned how to present it and as pastors ended up just giving the traditional evangelistic meeting sermon. I was taught it at Atlantic Union College where most if not all the people in the Religion department taught it. There have also been people here and there who have come to this understanding. Probably the two best known, but most controversial has been Graham Maxwell and Jack Provonsha. They were students together at PUC. While there Lynn Harper Wood came for a week of prayer. Neither remember Lynn Wood teaching about hell fire that week or having any influence on their later thinking on this field, but said that they were very impressed by his week of prayer and that he treated the theology students as peers instead of students. They also told me that there might have been something that they did not catch at the time and don't remember, but years later as they developed their theologies they ran into Lynn Wood as he had retired and was surprised to learn his understanding of hell. Now Provonsha was a bit more liberal on other issues, and because Maxwell developed a similar theology some of the criticisms people have created towards Provonsha they unfairly project on to Maxwell. And even the criticisms towards Provonsha is actually ideas that go far beyond where Provonsha was. Also, Maxwell has questioned some of the understandings how religion works because it was based on misunderstandings of hell. He did not give alternative possibilities only telling us that we need to reevaluate in light of the truth about hell fire. But others have said that if Maxwell is questioning some conservative views then he must be a liberal and teaching like the "Moral Influence Theory" and other things that he was equally uncomfortable with. Sadly there are a number of people who like what Maxwell is teaching, however they have it mixed with the false accusations and thus have a mish-mash theology mixture of what Maxwell was really teaching and what he was falsely accused of teaching. Because of this I do mention Maxwell and Provonsha with caution. but they did the most to spread this understanding. People have developed this from different locations and at different times. In the Soviet Union when the church could not practice in the open, there were still families who worshiped at home and on their own or in closely regulated churches. One Adventist family was the Dudah family. Daniel Dudah became a minister. He was given permission to attend a Lutheran seminary. White there he brought a number of Mrs. White books to compare and contrast what she taught with what he was learning. During this time he came to understand Mrs. White to be teaching this view of hell fire. He thought that all Adventists got this idea from her. When more freedoms came and was able to contact with the General Conference and the church at large, he was surprised that it was not taught by all Adventists. His next stage was believing that he was the first person to find this in the Bible and Mrs. White. However he eventually learned that there are others and became close to Maxwell. There was Jonathan Gallager in England who also came to this understanding. I have to confess while I agree with his view on hell fire and some other points where I think he could have a better understanding of the Bible. Also, in the 1960s (maybe late 50s) Richard Nies came to this understanding. He studied religion and theology but ended up working in the mental health field and became a psychologist. Sadly he died at a young age. I was very impressed by a net series in the 1990s by Mark Finley. This was an evangelistic meeting series there they were using satellite TV. In his sermon on hell fire he actually presented both sides without giving a commitment to either but where it was free for the local pastor to conclude one way or the other. But he gave the Biblical and Mrs. White quotes that lead to this view. Naomi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted January 11, 2015 Administrators Share Posted January 11, 2015 there is unrequited love, love that is not returned. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lineman Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 I guess I can see that whatever God does is done in love. Even Hell Fire. Heaven would be such a unpleasant place to the sinner, and if God did not destroy the sinner then the entire universe would be at risk of more pain and death. Those inside the City would never feel safe outside its walls. They would be prisoners. Of if sinners were quarantined and the righteous were allowed to roam freely, then the righteous would never be truly happy. Hell Fire will be one of those "strange acts" of God's love. Ok, thanks LifeHiscost 1 Quote Visit and Share the BibleTimelines.com URL ! (Explain the Gospel in just a few minutes, or maybe even seconds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart (SDA) Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The apostle Paul was persuaded that not even "death" has the power to separate a person from the love of God. I would go so far as to include the Second Death in that declaration. And so, even when Satan and all the wicked are gone, the love of God endures for them. I have no doubt whatsoever about this. God loves with an everlasting love, and He is no respecter of persons, especially not in this area. Yes, the flow of a river can fail, and structures can fail, but the love of God does not "fail". Unchained, Kevin H and phkrause 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lineman Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Thanks Stewart, exactly what I was thinking too! Quote Visit and Share the BibleTimelines.com URL ! (Explain the Gospel in just a few minutes, or maybe even seconds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inga Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 But our loved ones are not gone forever. They are sleeping!! There's a difference. And Stewart, how can you love someone who does not exist? When this sad experiment with evil is over, sin and sinners will be no more. They will not exist! JoeMo and LifeHiscost 2 Quote "Worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of water." Rev. 14:7 Check out what's new at Sabbath School Net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted January 17, 2015 Administrators Share Posted January 17, 2015 Nice to see you, Inga! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Read from the book of Malachi, chapter 1, verses 2-4 Contrary to public opinion, it appears that God does hate.......explinations anyone? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauralea Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I know it says Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated... not sure how to put this verse into the bigger picture... maybe that he hates attitudes that leave no room for God and even though He loves us all He also hates those who personify evil and a lack of a true experience with Him with kindness mercy and true values. Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauralea Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Oops our last 2 posts were deleted but I appreciate your thoughts and feel like we all need the pardoning and restoring presence of Christ in our lives. Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 9, 2015 Members Share Posted May 9, 2015 Here's a link to one answer to that Lauralea http://www.gotquestions.org/Jacob-Esau-love-hate.html Kevin H 1 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony! Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Original question - Yes, absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 PK- I understand your link in terms of forgiveness...but in terms of eternal love/hate...I'm not so sure.. .and understand, this is pure academia.... my or your salvation does not depend upon God hating those he chose to not be remade in the new earth/universe.... I suspect that God does miss the people he did not allow into the earth made new...mainly because for what they could have choose to be ....mainly because their current characters at the time of decision was harmful to the future earth made new....and would be a burden for those of heaven....they would have been living selfishly.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 So, Neil, all humans are not God's children? He didn't create us all? A disobedient child isn't a child who is loved? I'd say that often the reverse is true, but it is rarely true, even of human parents, that they don't love their disobedient children, even when those children have gone beyond the point where their parents can allow them to remain at home and cause problems for everyone else there. And you think this is true of God? He created people only to destroy them? To me that makes God some kind of monster. JoeMo 1 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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