Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

Here's what Jack says:

The reasons why I believe that Paul had the believer in mind (and I gave the reasons before) are at least four reasons because:

1. Chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 of Romans are dealing with the Christian, not with the pre-converted man.

2. Beginning in verse 14, Paul moves from the past tense, which he has been using in verses 7 to 13, to the present continuous tense, which means he is not referring to a past experience but to a present issue.

3. In Romans 7:22 he makes this statement:

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.

There are two things I would like to say about this verse 22.

1. First, his phrase “inward man” or “inner being” is a phrase Paul will use only to the believer. For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”:

Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16:

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being....

2. Secondly, if you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin:

...gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts....

That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. But his flesh is unchangeable. That is what Jesus tried to convince Nicodemus in John 3:6 where He said:

Flesh gives birth to flesh....

You cannot change the flesh. The only time the flesh will change is at the second coming of Christ. So Paul here is obviously referring to the believer.

4. I want to give you one more argument. There are statements that Paul makes in his epistles (he wrote almost half of the New Testament) where he does touch on his preconverted experience. Galatians 1:14 is an example:

I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Or another good example is Philippians 3:6. Wherever he talks about his preconverted experience as a Pharisee, he mentions nothing about a struggle. For example, Philippians 3:6 he says:

...As for legalistic righteousness, [i was] faultless.

There’s no mention of a struggle. Only as a Christian does he talk about the struggle. He does it in Romans 8:3, he does it in Galatians 5:17 — the struggle between flesh and Spirit. Galatians 5:17:

For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

(I posted this in the other post but since you started this I’ll post them here.

I have read what you posted several time and when I read it alone it sounds good to a certain degree. When I compare it with other texts and SOP it doesn’t harmonize. There are some point’s I’d like to make which I hope will help you see where I’m coming from.

1. The reality of what Paul is saying in Romans 7

2. The nature of Paul’s writing

3. The definition of sin

4. Bible and SOP Quotes that support what I am trying to say.

Part 1.

1. The reality of what Paul is saying

Let’s be real with what Paul is actually saying and see if this can truly apply to him when he was writing this.

Rom 7:15 And I have no clear knowledge of what I am doing, for that which I have a mind to do, I do not, but what I have hate for, that I do. BBE

Rom 7:19 For the good which I have a mind to do, I do not: but the evil which I have no mind to do, that I do. BBE (I chose just these 2 verse to cut down on my long posts)

I have asked myself, how in the world could Paul say these things? This is telling me that Paul was never able to do the good he wanted to do, but only the evil that was in his flesh. The word evil, basically translates to, things he abhorred that were contrary to the law. Is that the way Paul really was? That is exactly what these verses are saying. I can’t believe that Paul was like that because there are so many other writings of his that contradict this as being his current condition when writing the epistle. In the Romans verses above, he’s not saying that he thinks these things, but that he’s actually doing them and basically has no power to stop it. (Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.) This is the same bondage that he talks about in Rom 8:15 “For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.” This bondage of fear is a result of not knowing the Father and not keeping the law. We no longer need to fear as we have learned how much God loves us and what He has done for us through and in Christ. If Paul is saying that verses 15 & 19 are actually the way he’s living then he’s condemning himself.

Now let’s look at other verses taken from Galatians in contrast of what is said in Rom 7 above.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is made complete in one word, even in this, Have love for your neighbor as for yourself. 15 But if you are given to fighting with one another, take care that you are not the cause of destruction one to another. 16 But I say, Go on in the Spirit, and you will not come under the rule of the evil desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; because these are opposite the one to the other; so that you may not do the things which you have a mind to do. 18 But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clear, which are these: evil desire, unclean things, wrong use of the senses, 20 Worship of images, use of strange powers, hates, fighting, desire for what another has, angry feelings, attempts to get the better of others, divisions, false teachings, 21 Envy, uncontrolled drinking and feasting, and such things: of which I give you word clearly, even as I did in the past, that they who do such things will have no part in the kingdom of God. BBE

Verse 16 says that by following the Spirit you will not come under the rule of the evil desires of the flesh. This is echoing - Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Verse 19 is describing the works of the flesh which are what Paul is talking about in the above Romans verses. He makes a clear distinction that there are two camps and one of them is not going to inherit the kingdom of God if they do these things. The point here that Paul is making is that you cannot have both leading you. In other words you cannot be led of the Spirit and live like Romans 7. It is not possible. Christians that are half hearted (Laodiceans?) fall into this category and experience this battle. Paul also had this battle before he was converted. It happened around the time Stephen was stoned and afterwards when Jesus met him on the road to Damascus. Jesus said to Saul, “it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Saul’s conscience was bothering him and this battle was taking place in him for a while. He wanted to do that which was good but he was truly doing that which was evil and he could not stop himself, until Jesus stopped him. That was his selfish fleshly nature controlling him. These things are true and can’t be denied.

So then what was Paul talking about in Rom 7?

Rom 7:9 And there was a time when I was living without the law: but when the law gave its orders, sin came to life and put me to death; 10 And I made the discovery that the law whose purpose was to give life had become a cause of death: 11 For I was tricked and put to death by sin, which took its chance through the law. 12 But the law is holy, and its orders are holy, upright, and good. 13 Was then that which is good, death to me? In no way. But the purpose was that sin might be seen to be sin by working death to me through that which is good; so that through the orders of the law sin might seem much more evil. 14 For we are conscious that the law is of the spirit; but I am of the flesh, given into the power of sin.

When you read this through without interruption you can see that verse 14 pertains to the context of the previous verses. The context is that, “there was a time” or “I was alive once.” Then Paul goes on to describe that time and how he lived. Also we know that his nature was still with him, only he kept his body in subjection. 1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. I will explain this a little more in part 2. In order to keep this short I will post part 2, 3 & 4 separately.

Norman.

[Robert]

I am not familiar with this “BBE” translation. It sounds paraphrased....I use the NASB, RSV, KJV and NIV.

Having said that here's Paul after conversion:

1 Tim 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." KJV

Notice Norman that the converted Paul speaks of himself in the present tense...i.e., "of whom I AM chief"!

Before conversion Paul had a different view of himself:

Phil3:5 "...as to the Law, a Pharisee 6...as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." NASB

[Robert]

Quote:

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Norman said:

I have read what you posted several time and when I read it alone it sounds good to a certain degree. When I compare it with other texts and SOP it doesn’t harmonize.

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Here are some other statements on the law from the SOP:

• The law of God, as presented in the Scriptures, is broad in its requirements.Every principle is holy, just, and good....It [the law] reaches to the thoughts and feelings....If the law extended to the outward conduct only, men would not be guilty in their wrong thoughts, desires, and designs. But the law requires that the soul it self be pure and the mind holy, that the thoughts and feelings may be in accordance with the standard of love and righteousness.--RH, Apr 5, 1898. (2SM 211.)

Then she states:

• Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. [COL 391]

But are we Christians really keeping the law - are we perfect? Not according to EGW:

• The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity they [i.e., the prayers, praise and confession of sin] are so defiled that unless purified by blood [i.e., Christ's propitiation], they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor [Jesus], who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles [humanity] must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

  Oh, that all may see that everything [:"red"]in obedience[:"black"], in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat. [1SM 344]

Yes...the law internalized is a standard of Christian living, but we must remember that the law is all encompassing! It demands perfect thoughts, perfect motive and best of all perfect unselfish agape love.

In this respect the converted Paul said, "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me....All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. [Phil 3:12,15,16]

Note the mature Paul stated that he was not perfect….Let's continue:

Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the book of the law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned [past tense] and fall short of the glory of God [i.e., His selfless love - see Exodus 33:18,19], 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

That phrase, "And fall short", is in the continuous present tense. Hence, as Paul goes on to state, in that respect "there's none righteous - no, not even one." [see verse 10]

So when the converted Paul states, "For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out" he has perfection in mind! After all the context of Romans 7:7-13 touches on this very subject.

[Gerr]

The man of Romans 7 converted?

Here are the characteristics of the man of Rom 7.

1. "Carnal" [sarkikos - fleshly] 7:14. "Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor 15:50. "To be carnally minded is death" Rom 8:6, "the carnal mind is enmity against God" 8:7, "those who are in the flesh cannot please God" 8:8. "If you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit of God you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." 8:14 NKJ.

2. "Sold under sin" (NKJ), "sold as a slave to sin" (NIV), "sold into bondage to sin" (NASB) [piprasko - to sell, sell one into slavery] 7:14. Converted man "cannot go on sinning" Rom 6:1 NIV, "should no longer be slaves of sin", Rom 6:6, "freed from sin", Rom 6:7, "dead indeed to sin, but alive to God" 6:11.

3. Can't do right even when he wants to do right, 7:15-22. The promise to the believer is, "Sin shall not have dominion [rule] over you," Rom 6:14. "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16. "Those who are Chrit's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Gal 5:25

4. "Nothing good dwells" in him, instead, "sin ... dwells in me" 7:17,19. Sin within tells him what to do. "Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. So if we continue to live in him, we won't sin either. But those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is." ...But when people keep on sinning, it shows they belong to the Devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy these works of the Devil. Those who have been born into God's family do not sin, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they have been born of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not obey God's commands and does not love other Christians does not belong to God." 1 Jn 3:4-6,8-10 NLT

5. "Wretched man", in need of deliverance, 7:24. The Father "has delivered us [believers] from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:14 NKJ.

The man of Romans 7 a converted man? No way, Jose!.

Gerry

[Robert]

• -BC- SC

  -TI- Steps to Christ

  -CN- 3

  -CT- Repentance

  -PR- 03

  -PG- 29

  Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner.

The question is how did Paul discern "the spiritual character of the law"?

Answer: Romans 7:7

"I [Paul] would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

Please note Paul equates "sin" (not sins) with "coveting"! Didn't the pre-converted Paul know the law? Yes, but only in the letter. What does that mean?

Go to Matt 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’

If we take the Ten Commandments and read sixth commandment, how does it read?

"You shall not murder"....That's the letter of the law!

Let's read on:

22 But I [Christ] tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment....

That's right...if I am angry at you (for whatever reason)...in the law's spiritual eyes I am a sinner and stand under judgment! Now back to EGW:

• Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he [Paul] had abstained from sin [i.e., he was "blameless"]; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts [i.e., when Paul looked past the letter of the law], and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.

  Now EGW quotes Romans 7:9

  He [Paul] says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he [Paul] saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride] was gone.

You see the pre-converted Paul thought that because he kept the letter of the law he had a legal right to enter into eternal life. Hence the phrase, "I was alive" without knowing the spirit of the law. But when he realized that sin was much more than the mere letter of the law through the 10th commandment, he came under its curse.

Laodicea has this problem too...as did Job. Let's briefly look at these statements:

Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’

What does that mean? To a Jew a rich man was a good man blessed of God. Where did the Jews get this idea? In the book of the law:

28:1 “Now it shall be, if you will diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth....11 And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity....

So the church of Laodicea [which, by the way, EGW said is especially applicable to the SDA church] considers itself "wealthy" because its members claim to keep the law...all 10 of them.

But Christ has a different view:

17 But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

The call to Laodicea is a call to repent of our spiritual view of our law keeping. We think that just because we keep the letter of the law that we are above sin....Wrong says Jesus....You are not keeping the spirit of the law as I did....Hence you need to repent of your self-righteousness!

Now to Job....Here's the pre-converted Job:

"let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless...." Job 31:6

After his conversion:

"Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile... [40:3,4] Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." [42:6]

[Robert]

Gerry,

Long time no see....How are you doing?

Okay, here's what I am not saying:

I am not saying that we are not maturing...I am not saying to enjoy sin. I am not saying to go down to the local topless bar and check the girls out while you drink your beer...

What I am saying is that while we are growing...while we are keeping the letter of the law, there's a lot more that we are not doing. Hence we are not perfect....That's all...

Rob

[Robert]

Here are questions for all reading this post:

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Post deleted by Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Rob,

We met a friend of Robert Weiland & Jack Sequeira's in church today. He was a missionary in Africa with Jack. His name is Dr. Earl Richards, do you know him? He preached at our church and gave a good encouraging message.

(Stayed tuned for Part 2 possibly later tonight or tomorow)

Norman

[Robert]

No...I don't know him.

Rob

[Robert]

In our Christian walk I detect two dangerous ditches:

1] Cheap grace

2] Self-righteousness

Go to Romans 5:18 -- "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"

I can take this and say, "Praise the Lord, the more I sin the more God's grace covers me. Let us sin all the more!"

Is that what Paul is saying? No....That's why he corrects any misunderstanding in Romans 6:1

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Where did we die to sin?

Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin....

Paul is speaking of our corporate death "in Christ"! He is saying that our old fallen humanity died "in the body of Christ" some 2000 years ago. Now he gives the application:

Romans 6:11 Likewise consider yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That's the converted mind frame! Your mind now opposes the flesh that is constantly trying to drag you towards sin....So while justification by faith might be easy to accept, Sanctification is not easy at all. Let's face it Christian living is a struggle...and this struggle won't be over until either the 2nd coming or death.

So the Christian should be growing as his faith matures, but he can never claim perfection...except for his perfection "in Christ".

Now to point 2:

Turn to 1 John 1:8 -- If we claim to be without sin [perfection], we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Cheap grace says its okay to sin as a lifestyle....It doesn't matter, Jesus did it all...but in the other ditch we have those who claim to be keeping the law in all its spiritual dimensions. These people are sorely deceived also. In fact the Bible states that "the truth" [Jesus, through the Spirit] is not in them. That means that they are unconverted!

Both camps are dangerous. Hence the Christian must avoid these two extremes...these two ditches.

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

I had to repost this poll as my first one expired after I posted my answers. (That was my 1st poll, not too sure how they work)

Norman

[Robert]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Romans 6:11

Likewise

consider yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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After correcting the cheap grace crowd, Paul turns towards the self-righteous. This triggers the context of Romans chapter seven:

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law —that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

You see from the moment you are conceived the law comes down on you....It puts you in prison waiting execution. If you don't believe me turn to Gal 3:23 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed."

So to be under law is a terrible thing. It means we must die...not a sleep death, but goodbye to life forever. What's the solution...do away with the law or something else?

Well, Paul turns to the law of marriage to make his point:

Verse 2: For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

Here Paul draws a comparison. Note the analogy: By marriage the woman is "bound" to her husband as long as he lives.

Likewise, by birth we are "bound" to the law as long as we live.

But if married woman's husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. She is free to marry another.

And likewise, if the law is done away with then we too are no longer "bound" to the law.

However, while husbands do die, the law cannot be done away with. God's law is eternal. So what's the solution?

verse 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ....

What? That's right....Instead of doing away with the law God put you into Christ at the incarnation. That's why Romans 6:6 says, "our old self was crucified with him"! This is your legal justification accomplished by Christ alone....Is this all? No, more:

that you might belong to another [Christ...instead of the law], to him who was raised from the dead,

Why...so we can watch a porn, drink beer, smoke pot and raise heck [just to name some sins]...? No...

in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Now Paul describes how we were before conversion:

5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

verse 6 But now [after conversion], by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law....

There it is folks...we are no longer under law! Why? Because "in Christ" the law has been answered. Therefore the law can no longer touch you...it can't demand obedience...it can't condemn you because as far as it's concerned you are dead!

So...since we are no longer under law does that mean we should enjoy sin? No! Then what should our response be?

so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Now Paul turns to explaining why we had to be delivered from under the law:

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!

Is the law at fault here? No! The problem is that we are sinners indwelt by "the law of sin"....That's the problem. Where did Paul learn this?

Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

What Paul is saying is that his sinful nature deceived him because he really didn't understand sin until he understood what "coveting" really meant. Hence, apart from this knowledge Paul considered himself sinless (i.e., sin is dead)

9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

As Saul he considered himself righteous with the limited understanding he had then...but when he understood what "coveting" really meant, he realized that he was a sinner....

10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

The very law he thought commended him condemned him!

11 For sin [i.e., Paul's sinful nature], seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment [in the absence of a better understanding of the law], deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Again, Paul's nature deceived him to the true meaning of sin as defined by the 10th commandment!

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Nothing is wrong with the law....

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Did the law condemn Paul once he accepted Christ? No, but it did have a function: "so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." It defied sin to be more than the mere letter of the law. Coveting is not an outward sin...it is inward. It has to do with desire, passion...our sinful cravings...our self-seeking.

Verse 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

An unconverted person, like Saul before conversion, does not understand the spirituality of the law. They too limit sin to outward actions as defined by the Ten Commandments.

It is with the spirituality of the law in mind that Paul begins the following:

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Nuff said,

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

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Robert said:

It is with the spirituality of the law in mind that Paul begins the following:

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

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Specifically, Paul had in mind the 10th commandment - "You shall not covet." With this in mind let's look at the the following again:

18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good [not covet], but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the [coveting] I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, [coveting] is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Okay here we have someone who is mature, but when it comes to living Christ's selfless life, he finds himself coming up short! Is it possible for such a person to experience Christ's life?

Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin [coveting/self-seeking] in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....

The Bible does leave open the possibility of experiencing a life of agape love - a love Paul describes as not self-seeking.

Think about it...just about everything we do in life is about self....I go to college so that I can make more money so that I can have nicer things so that my kids can have it better than other kids....And on and on and on....

Can God produce a people who are fully unselfish (like the early church in the book of Acts)? Apparently so! This will constitute the remnant (which is still future). What is said of them?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God [not merely the letter, but the spirit], and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Gerr]

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After correcting the cheap grace crowd, Paul turns towards the self-righteous. This triggers the context of Romans chapter seven:

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers—for

I am speaking to men who know the law

—that

the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

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[:"blue"]Yes, the man of Rom 7 knows the law, but knowing the law and being converted can be poles apart. [/]

Gerry

[Planey]

Here is what Marvin Moore has to say on this issue in his book "Forever His":

• You may recall that in verse 7 of this chapter Paul began writing in the first person. Verses 14 to 25 continue that same point of view, I but with one important difference. : In verse 14 Paul switched from past ! tense to present tense. This suggests that he was describing his own experience at the time he wrote these words-and I doubt there's a Christian alive who would say that Paul was unconverted at the time he wrote Romans 7! Those who view the man of Romans 7 as unconverted acknowledge that Paul was writing in the first person, present tense, but they understand this to be a literary device. Either he was using the first person to describe a hypothetical Christian, sort of an Everyman, or, if he really was describing his own experience, he had in mind his life as a Pharisee prior to his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus. However, in verses 9 to 11, Paul really did write of his preconversion experience as a legalistic Pharisee, and there he used the first person, past tense. It seems reasonable to assume that he would also have used the past tense in verses 14 to 25 had he been speaking of his preconversion experience. Since he switched to the present tense, I conclude that he was speaking of his experience at the time he wrote Romans. And, for reasons I'll explain next, I don't believe he was using this first-person, present-tense viewpoint as a literary device.

He goes on to explain this position in more detail (quite convincingly IMHO) which I could post later if anyone is remotely interested.

Graeme

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Yes, the man of Rom 7 knows the law, but knowing the law and being converted can be poles apart.

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Two questions?

1] Does the unconverted man "delight in God's law"? [see Rom 7:22 NIV]

If the unconverted man does "delight in God's law" then you must explain Romans 8:7 -- "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot....

Let me quote Romans 7:22 again: "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" [KJV]

2] What does Paul mean by "the inward man"?

A quick review of Paul's meaning of "the inward man" yields the following:

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that ye may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts [or mind] through faith...

2 Cor 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day. [1901 ASV]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Planey,

I've read a book by Marvin Moore called he dragon within and when I got to his definition on Romans 7 and other thoughts that he had I stopped reading the book.

I have motioned this before but no one can dispute it so I'll mention it again. Only I'll post this in many translation and paraphrases.

Rom 7:18

(ALT) For I know that [there] does not dwell in me, that is in my flesh, [any] good; for the [ability] to be desiring is present with me, but the [ability] to be producing the good I do not find.

(ASV) For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

(BBE) For I am conscious that in me, that is, in my flesh, there is nothing good: I have the mind but not the power to do what is right.

(CEV) I know that my selfish desires won't let me do anything that is good. Even when I want to do right, I cannot.

(Darby) For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell: for to will is there with me, but to do right I find not.

(EMTV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to do the good, I do not find.

(ESV) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

(Geneva) For I know, that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is preset with me: but I find no meanes to perform that which is good.

(GNB) I know that good does not live in me---that is, in my human nature. For even though the desire to do good is in me, I am not able to do it.

(GW) I know that nothing good lives in me; that is, nothing good lives in my corrupt nature. Although I have the desire to do what is right, I don't do it.

(ISV) For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but I cannot carry it out.

(KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The key to understanding Romans 7 is Paul's disclaimer, (That is, in my flesh) Why did he have to add that if he was talking about his current spiritual condition? It's clear as day, he is saying that, he is all those things in his flesh, meaning in my flesh these evils exist. But he was not a slave to his flesh in the way this portion of Romans is describing. We see that as he proclaims his gratefulness to God in Rom 7:25 “I give praise to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So with my mind I am a servant to the law of God, but with my flesh to the law of sin." There are only two ways to live, by the flesh or by the Spirit it is not possible to live by both. Paul was living by the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For those who are living in the way of the flesh give their minds to the things of the flesh, but those who go in the way of the Spirit, to the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:

I have part 2 of 4 to post tomorrow, please look for it. I was going to post this in Part 4 but will put it here. There are more statements that are even plainer than this in regards to what a converted person is like.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 10, 1902, paragraph 10

Article Title: The Promise of the Spirit

God will bless those who thus prepare themselves for his service. They will understand what it means to have the assurance of the Spirit, because they have received Christ by faith. The religion of Christ means more than the forgiveness of sin; it means that sin is taken away, and that the vacuum is filled with the Spirit. It means that the mind is divinely illumined, that the heart is emptied of self, and filled with the presence of Christ. When this work is done for church members, the church will be a living, working church.

BTW Robert the BBE is a translation first put out in 1949 and then revised in 1965. It is the Bible in Basic English. It was translated into English using 1000 words. It's not a paraphrase. From what I have read so far, it's pretty good. It's online and you can D/L it free.

Norman

[Planey]

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Norman said:

I've read a book by Marvin Moore called he dragon within and when I got to his definition on Romans 7 and other thoughts that he had I stopped reading the book.

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That's certainly one way of not learning anything. Why not read and see if he maybe he has got it correct and so your understanding may be improved? I have read what you have got to say and read all of it, even though I don't agree with your conclusions.

I also raed what Robert has to say, what Gerry has to say, what Ron has to say and so on. And in each case I carefully consider their arguments, their reasoning, their Scriptural support etc and try to decide with the help of the Holy Spirit whetner there is any enlightenment in what has been said. (By the way I am happy to say that in mostcases with the persons mentioned there is usually plenty of light!)

If it should be that I find something I consider to be not quite right by my current understanding, I carefully evaluate why I disagree and what is the support (if any) for the position I hold. This is the way I learn. At the moment I am following the discussion on the Trinity with interest to make sure I understand the issues involved and fully evaluate the Biblical support and any relevant SOP support so that I can ensure I have a firm grasp of doctrine. While I already had a position in my mind which I believed to be correct and Biblically supported, I am still willing to carefully read and consider other people's ideas.

Perhaps you should do the same.

Graeme

[Robert]

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Norman said:

(KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not....It's clear as day, he is saying that, he is all those things in his flesh, meaning in my flesh these evils exist.

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verse 20: "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

No...he is saying that in my mind [or "the law of my mind" - see verse 23] I delight in God's law, but performance wise I find myself failing.

Again THE CONTEXT of chapter 7 is dealing with the spirit of God's law. Can any of us say that we are keeping the spirit of the law just as Christ. If not, then you must share Paul's position!

SOP: "Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption."

Like I said the pre-converted Paul bragged of his righteousness: "As to righteousness under the law blameless." [Phil 3:6]

If, in Romans chapter 7, he is still unconverted...then why did he cease bragging of his law performance?

Rob

[Robert]

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Robert said:

If, in Romans chapter 7, he is still unconverted...then why did he cease bragging of his law performance?

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Who is unconverted in the following?

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man [the tax collector], rather than the other [the pharisee], went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Yes, the man of Rom 7 knows the law, but knowing the law and being converted can be poles apart.

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Two questions?

1] Does the unconverted man "delight in God's law"? [see Rom 7:22 NIV]

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[:"blue"]Here is what Paul said about himself before his Damascus conversion. [:"red"]"Yet I could have confidence in myself if anyone could. If others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more! For I was circumcised when I was eight days old, having been born into a pure-blooded Jewish family that is a branch of the tribe of Benjamin. So I am a real Jew if there ever was one! What's more, I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. And zealous? Yes, in fact, I harshly persecuted the church. And I obeyed the Jewish law so carefully that I was never accused of any fault." Phil 3:4-6 NLT [/]

[/]

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If the unconverted man does "delight in God's law" then you must explain Romans 8:7 -- "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God;

it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot....

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[:"blue"]Who is this person with such a "carnal mind" that is in "enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God?" Go to Rom 1:20-32 and you will find a description of Gentiles who professed to be wise but instead became fools, exchanging the "glory of God into the image made like corruptible man", who were given up by God to uncleanness & vile passions. Go to the OT and you will find that Israelites who forgot the Law descended into the same debauchery that their pagan neighbors practiced. Not so the Pharisees who adhered to the Law. [/]

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Let me quote Romans 7:22 again: "For I delight in the law of God

after the inward man

" [KJV]

2] What does Paul mean by "the inward man"?

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[:"blue"]Here is what other translations say about what he means by "inward man".

"For in my inner being I delight in God's law." NIV

"I love God's law with all my heart." NLT

"In my mind, I am happy with God's law." NCV

"For I delight in God's law in my inmost self." NRSV

Did the Pharisee Paul delight in God's law in his inner being/all his heart/mind/inmost self? Was he not so zealous for the law so much so as even willing to kill for it? [/]

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2 Cor 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,

yet our inward man is renewed day by day.

[1901 ASV]

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[:"blue"]Paul also said, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Rom 12:2 NKJ

Transformation comes from a transformed mind, the innermost being, the soul, of man, empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Pre-Damascus Pharisee Paul agreed and even delighted in God's law with his mind, but it was not a regenerated mind, outwardly conformed to the Law. But, as Jesus said, a mind that looked outwardly as white-washed sepulchers full of dead men's bones. [/]

Man of Rom 7 converted? No way, Jose.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Robert said:

If, in Romans chapter 7, he is still unconverted...then why did he cease bragging of his law performance?

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[:"blue"]Because in discovered that, "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20 NKJ. And that is why he could say in Phil 3 that, "what that things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ....and count them as rubbish [dung KJV], that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is from God by faith," v. 7-9 NKJ. Since salvation is by grace through faith from beginning to the end, there is NEVER any room for boasting. The believer cannot boast about his obedience because his obedience is also by grace lived through faith.

The taxcollector grasped what the Pharisee did not, i.e. he realized that he was a sinner in need of grace, and that his success in keeping the law was not what commended him to God. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

(KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not....It's clear as day, he is saying that, he is all those things in his flesh, meaning in my flesh these evils exist.

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verse 20: "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

No...he is saying that in my mind [or "the law of my mind" - see verse 23] I delight in God's law, but performance wise I find myself failing.

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[:"blue"]That's the dilemma of anyone who tries to keep the law without the indwelling Spirit. He maybe outwardly righteous, but totally powerless when it comes to real transformation of the inner person, the heart. But when a person abides in Christ, then God "works in you both to will AND to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NKJ. Then John's promise becomes a reality, that "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning.....No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 Jn 3:6,9 NIV. [/]

Gerry