Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Is that what Jesus did & wants us to do? Get rid of all our possessions and sponge on others?

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Then please...explain why Jesus said the things he did concerning "possessions"! I am all ears....

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[:"blue"]Well, tell me, did Jesus mean for us to mooch and sponge off of others? ....

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I am waiting...please quit stalling!

Rob

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[:"blue"]First of all, there is nothing wrong in having possessions or being rich per se. Since you like to point out context, let's look at the context of Jesus' statement, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." Lk 12:33 NIV.

Jesus was teaching with a crowd of people around Him. "Then one in the crowd said to Him, 'Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.'" Lk 12:13 NKJ. Jesus refused to be the arbitrator. Instead, He went to the root of the problem and said, "Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consis in the abundance of the things he possesses." Lk 12:15 NKJ.

He then proceeded to tell the parable of the rich fool. See Lk 12:16-21.

What was the sin of the rich fool? Was it in having vast possessions? [/]

To be cont'd.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Response cont'd.

[:"blue"] What was the sin of the rich fool?

It is obvious from what Jesus said in 12:21, [:"red"]"So is he who lays up [thesaurizo - to heap up, store up, accumulate riches] for himself, and is not rich toward God." Lk 12:21 NKJ. [/]

He already had more than enough, but when his lands produced more crops, he was not satisfied, while there were poor people around him, he wanted to "lay up, store up, heap up" for himself, with little or no thought about God or the needs of the poor around him. He was constantly worried about not having enough.

Then in the next verses, Jesus proceeded to allay this constant worry about physical necessities. [:"red"] "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. Life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens....God feeds them.....Consider the lilies....If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?. And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind....But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you." [/]

Or, as He said in His sermon on the mount, [:"red"]"Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Mt 6:33 [/] NOT "seek first the kingdom of God and He will take everything away from you." Or, "seek first the kingdom of God and He will ask you to get rid of all your possessions." NO. What He is telling us is to make the kingdom of God and possession of His righteousness our first priority and God will provide for the things our bodies need.

Then the statement, [:"red"]"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no theif comes near and no moth destroys. For where your teasure is, there your heart will be also." Lk 12:33,34 NIV [/]

To be cont'd. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Response cont'd.

[:"blue"]Here is what the Bible says about hoarded riches.

[:"red"]"People curse the man who hoards grain,

but blessing crowns him who is willing so sell." Prov 11:26 NIV

"I have seen a grievous evil under the sun;

wealth hoarded to the harm of its owner." Eccl 5:13 NIV

"Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence..." Jam 5:1-5 NIV. [/]

Instead of piling on riches after riches, Paul's advice is:

[:"red"]"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world; and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness......

Command those who are rich in this present age not be to haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life." 1 Tim 6:6-11,17-19 NKJ [/]

In the parable of the talents, God gives everyone a certain amount of talents. Each is to improve it. As EGW said, our first duty to God & our fellowmen is to improve these talents so that we can be of better service to God and to our fellowmen. Responsible stewardship is not divesting oneself of all possessions and just handing out to the poor. Responsible stewardship, first of all, acknowledges God as the One who gives the talents, gives the power to get wealth, and these talents/possessions are to be used to His glory. [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

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Do you agree with this statement:

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

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Let's start with the context of those verses.

Rom 2:2 "But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?"

The topic is: God is just, true and fair in His judgement. So no matter who you are,even if you are an Israelite you will be judged according to God's ruling. Now let's look at the verse you quoted. Those who have not known the law will be judged by their works and those who have known the law will be judged by their works. Why? Because our works reveal whether or not we love God and have faith in Him as a result of what Jesus has done.

Let's go on in order to be certain of what Paul is saying.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

As the Gentiles (those who don't know God) live their day to day lives, they are taught of God and they either accept or reject what God is doing in their hearts by the Spirit. They have their struggles and they will reveal God's law by love to God and to those around them, if they consent to God's Spirit working in them. Likewise those of us who know the law, we will reveal God's law by love to Him and to our fellow man by the same Holy Spirit that is working in them. Now if either group does not reveal God's love, they will be lost because not the hearers or memorizers of God's law will be finally cleared for immortality, but those who respond to God's love and do the things contained in the law, by the indwelling Holy Spirit. All of this reveals the acceptance of God in the heart and mind and the conscience also bears witness to this.

This is what verses 12 & 13 are about and that I believe.

Norman

[there buster]

Been watching this debate with mild interest.

Hint: Justification, Sanctification, Glorification.

If you remember all three, the answer to the question becomes much easier.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Ed,

You have no doubt seen some interesting comments. I have learned more as I have been discussing this. I also have shared things in this thread that I have not seen before. (not that no one has ever thought of them or written them but they are new to me)I know they are from God and it's a blessing to me and I'm sure to others who have read them.

The key to understanding the R7 Man (as we have decided to call him), is love for God. Responding to God out of a renewed heart that loves God and a mind that is led by the Holy Spirit. If you look at this as a human response, human ability, and human determination, you miss what Paul is saying.

My words don't express my thoughts clearly enough, but I think you get what I'm saying in spirit.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

But quickly, concerning EGW statement to her son, I understand that.

That's not a contradiction.

There a certain age at which children understand, "be good and don't make Jesus upset."

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I don't buy that, Norman....That would be lying! In fact that's legalism. No wonder kids are so screwed up when it comes to God. They are afraid of Him...God doesn’t love us based on our performance…He loves us because “God is love.”

BTW, Jack Sequeira will be in Asheboro, NC tomorrow. Short notice, but now you know if you are interested. It’s about 70 miles N-E of Charlotte. I’ll be there….

Rob

[Robert]

Nothing you said tells me why Jesus "commanded" anyone to sell his possessions. I am still waiting....Please explain the following:

• Luke 14:27 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

  Also, look at EGW's quote:

  “The Owner of the world, he had not where to lay his head. Unrecognized and unhonored, he walked in and out among the people for whom he had done so much. Of himself he said, ‘Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath no where to lay his head.’ And to his followers he says, ‘If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.’” [YI, 04-27-09]

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Now if either group does not reveal God's love, they will be lost because not the hearers or memorizes of God's law will be finally cleared for immortality, but those who respond to God's love and do the things contained in the law, by the indwelling Holy Spirit. All of this reveals the acceptance of God in the heart and mind and the conscience also bears witness to this. This is what verses 12 & 13 are about and that I believe.

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I disagree with your conclusion....Here's why:

Rom 2:1 Though they [context: those who were without an explicit knowledge of God through the Torah - namely, the Gentiles] know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

Please remember that a practiced sin is a "known sin" that one refuses to acknowledge before God [Read 1 John 1:9]

So the Gentiles who knew God through creation, yet rejected Him, naturally "condoned" open sin! That is to say they didn't repent....

Rom 2:2 Therefore you [context - The Jews who had the Torah] have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself...

Why? Here's Paul's conclusion of the whole matter:

Romans 3:9 "What then? Are we [Jews] better than they [the Gentiles]? Not at all"

Why not?

"For we have already charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin, 10 as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.

Now back to Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?

Verse 5: "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed...."

Again, the issue isn't perfection...it's "repentance"!

Verse 7: "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory [God's glory?] and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Note the group in verse 7 "preservers in doing good"! Yet, as we read in Paul's conclusion, "There is none righteous"! Is this a contradiction?

No! Again the fruit of the gospel is a changed life...not perfection! If this wasn't true Paul wouldn't conclude that "there is none righteous, no, not even one."

Now to verse 11:For there is no partiality with God.

How so?

verse 12: For all who have sinned [past tense] without the Law [i.e., the Gentiles] will also perish without the Law....

The Gentiles, who did not have access to the law, yet knew God through creation [see Romans 1:20] will perish even thought they didn't have the Torah.

"and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law..."

The Jews were "under the law"....They claimed salvation by it. They were under its jurisdiction. The problem is they were failing to keep it perfectly! That's sinning while under law. What is the result? They will be judged [condemned] by the law.

Why?

13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

The only way to be justified "under the law" is to keep the law, but the Jews were failing, miserably....So it doesn't matter if you were a Gentile and refused God through what was made or you are a Jew and you claim a right to heaven by the keeping of the law - you will be lost. Why?

Verse 5: "...because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart

[Robert]

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Robert said:

verse 12: For all

who have sinned

[past tense]

without the Law

[i.e., the Gentiles]

will also perish without the Law

....

The Gentiles, who did not have access to the law, yet knew God through creation [see Romans 1:20] will perish even thought they didn't have the Torah.

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I should have said, "The Gentiles, who did not have access to the law, yet knew God through creation [see Romans 1:20] and rejected Him will perish even thought they didn't have the Torah."

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

Nothing you said tells me why Jesus "commanded" anyone to sell his possessions. I am still waiting....Please explain the following:

• Luke 14:27 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."
  Also, look at EGW's quote:
  “The Owner of the world, he had not where to lay his head. Unrecognized and unhonored, he walked in and out among the people for whom he had done so much. Of himself he said, ‘Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath no where to lay his head.’ And to his followers he says, ‘If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.’” [YI, 04-27-09]

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[:"blue"]God never intends for His children to be leeches, moochers, and spongers. That is why He [:"red"]"give you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms His covenant," Dt 8:18 NIV.

"Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things." 1 Ch 29:12 NIV

"Moreover, when God gives any wealth and possession, and enables him to enjoy them, to accept his lot and be happy in his work - this is a gift of God. Ecc 5:19 NIV

[/] God gives gifts for His children to enjoy, not to take them away and make them miserable. If the plague spot in ones life that may keep one out of heaven is one's possessions, then God does ask us to part with them. Read the context again of Luke 12:33 by reading all the verses before it. The same Christ who gave the gift of wealth & possessions cannot be asking you to get rid of all of them and wind up mooching on unbelievers.

Here is an interesting statement from the one you like to quote.

[:"red"]"The desire to accumulate wealth is an original affection of our nature, implanted there by our heavenly Father for noble ends. CS 149. [/]

What has happened is that this desire that was designed for noble ends has been perverted by sin so that the end has become self. So it makes sense that the same author would say that our first duty to God and our fellowmen is self-development. For what purpose? For self alone? NO. We develop ourselves and that includes the accumulation of wealth so that we can better bless others.

Moochers? Leeches? Sponges? NO. That is not in the language of God's economy. He wants His people to be the head and not the tail.

If your discipleship and salvation is dependent on your total divestiture of all your possessions, have you done that yet, Robert?[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

Nothing you said tells me why Jesus "commanded" anyone to sell his possessions. I am still waiting....Please explain the following:

Luke 14:27 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."




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[:"blue"]I don't know what Bible you are using but mine in Lk 14:27 says, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." NKJ.

Lk 14:26 does say also, [:"red"]"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sister, yes, and his own life also,he cannot be My disciple." [/]

Is that what Jesus wants us to do? Hate everything near and dear to us inorder to be His disciple? The same Christ who commanded us [or was it suggested per your view?] to honor father & mother? Or did He not rather mean that when father, mother, brother, sister, or self, come between the believer & God that the believer should obey God rather than man? Is this not the same attitude that Jesus is asking in regards to possessions? [/]
Gerry

[Gerr]

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Also, look at EGW's quote:

“The Owner of the world, he had not where to lay his head. Unrecognized and unhonored, he walked in and out among the people for whom he had done so much. Of himself he said, ‘Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath no where to lay his head.’ And to his followers he says, ‘If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.’” [YI, 04-27-09]

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[:"blue"]She also wrote: [:"red"] "He was rich, and He became poor, that through His poverty we might become rich." TDG 330 [/] [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

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I don't buy that, Norman....That would be lying! In fact that's legalism. No wonder kids are so screwed up when it comes to God. They are afraid of Him...God doesn’t love us based on our performance…He loves us because “God is love.”

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Kids don't understand God's agape love. Try to explain the cross to a five year old and you'll find yourself using the words bad and good and discribing behavior. But when they are of age you can explain it to them and they'll understand.

This is a principle taken from Gal 4:1 "Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father."

Think it through.

I couldn't make it today Rob, I had to speak at church, but thanks for letting me know.

Rob what type of music do you like? There's a guy by the name of Doyle Dykes who plays really good guitar. Check out this link http://www.myspace.com/doyledykes also his website http://www.doyledykes.com/news.htm

If you look at his website tour schedule you 'll see that he's going to be in Kings Mountain NC in May, which about 100 miles from Columbia SC. We may go there to see him as I haven't seen him in about a year and a half. If you like guitar playing you'll truly enjoy him and his message.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob,

2 quick points,

One Pauls method of writing: That is part 2 of my 4 part response that I haven't finished yet. He often goes off in another direction in order to explain his points. This is confusing to manhy people because they don't see that.

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Rom 2:2 Therefore you [context - The Jews who had the Torah] have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself...

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Two. Paul is not referring to the Torah here. His is talking about the 10 commandments. Note the following addresses the Jew.

Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

I'll continue later

Norman.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

Nothing you said tells me why Jesus "commanded" anyone to sell his possessions. I am still waiting....Please explain the following:

Luke 14:27 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

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[:"blue"]I don't know what Bible you are using but mine in Lk 14:27 says, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." NKJ.

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You're right....Here's the correction:

Luke 14:33 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." NASB

Now will you answer???

Rob

[Robert]

Gerry...be honest and don't try to dodge the following questions:

• Luke 6:27 [NIV] “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.

  30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Gerry, if you did as Jesus commands how long would it be until you had no possessions left?

• 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that.

  34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full.

  35 But love your enemies, do good to them, [:"red"]and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.[:"black"] Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

IF you lent your money out without expecting to it back, how long would it be until you were like Christ - i.e., homeless?

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

Nothing you said tells me why Jesus "commanded" anyone to sell his possessions. I am still waiting....Please explain the following:

Luke 14:27 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

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[:"blue"]I don't know what Bible you are using but mine in Lk 14:27 says, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." NKJ.

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You're right....Here's the correction:

Luke 14:33 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." NASB

Now will you answer???

Rob

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[:"blue"]I have already written a number of posts to answer your question. At this point, any amount of explanation on my part would not suffice to satisfy you, since you are bent on holding on to this cockamamie notion that God wants you to be poor and mooch on unbelievers.

But maybe you will accept EGW's commentary on Lk 14:33.

[:"red"]"In giving ourselves to God, we must necessarily give up all that would separate us from Him. Hence the Saviour says, 'Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all thjat he hath, he cannot be My disciple." Lk 14:33. Whatever shall draw away the heart from God must be given up. Mammon is the idol of many. The love of money, the desire for wealth, is the golden chain that binds them to Satan. Reputation and worldly honor are worshiped by another class. The life of selfish ease and freedom from responsibility is the idol of others. But these slavish bands must be broken. We cannot be half the Lord's and half the world's. We are not God's children unless we are such entirely." SC 44. [/]

Look at Zacchaeus. He gave half of his goods to the poor, and whatever he was falsely accused of taking, he restored fourfold. Yet he was still accused as being an unworthy sinner to be consorting with Jesus. Did Jesus ask him to divest himself of the other half before he could be Jesus' disciple? NO. He said, "Today salvation has come to this house..." Lk 19:9 NKJ. The Rich Young Ruler was a different story. His possessions were his idol, that is why Jesus asked him to part with them. Jesus asks us to give up only those things that are a snare to us. For you to say that Jesus wants us to be homeless, educationless, and propertyless is one of the most ridiculous twisting of His teachings imaginable!

Freedom from worry is one of the things Jesus has reassured us about. Now tell me, how free are you from worry if you and your children don't know where you are going to sleep tonight especially if you are in the ice blizzard in the Carolinas right now, and where you are going to get your next meal.

And since you claim to be a disciple of Christ, have you gotten rid of all your possessions yet? I notice that you keep ignoring this question. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

Nothing you said tells me why Jesus "commanded" anyone to sell his possessions. I am still waiting....Please explain the following:

Luke 14:27 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

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[:"black"]I don't know what Bible you are using but mine in Lk 14:27 says, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." NKJ.

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You're right....Here's the correction:

Luke 14:33 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." NASB

Now will you answer???

Rob

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But maybe you will accept EGW's commentary on Lk 14:33.

[:"red"]"In giving ourselves to God, we must necessarily give up all that would separate us from Him. Hence the Saviour says, 'Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all thjat he hath, he cannot be My disciple." Lk 14:33. Whatever shall draw away the heart from God must be given up. Mammon is the idol of many. The love of money, the desire for wealth, is the golden chain that binds them to Satan. Reputation and worldly honor are worshiped by another class. The life of selfish ease and freedom from responsibility is the idol of others. But these slavish bands must be broken. We cannot be half the Lord's and half the world's. We are not God's children unless we are such entirely." SC 44. [/]

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Ellen White isn't the measuring stick of truth, the Bible is....Even she stated that!

However, let's examine one of her lines in her quote above: She calls "the desire for wealth" sin....Re-read it. Tell me, when you went to college...did you go with Gerry in mind or were you being totally selfless?

Right...you had Gerry in mind. Why? Because we live in a world dominated with the principle of "self"....So if Gerry lives solely for others in this world he will end up penniless. That's one of the reasons Christ was homeless.

Now sure, it is equally selfish to be lazy and mooch off of others. After all Paul said, "If a man doesn't work he won't eat." Food and clothing are essential...and I would even add housing [but the verse doesn't say that], in this world, comes under the umbrella of "clothing."

But let's face it...most of us (especially if we have a little money) have nice homes.... Again, why? It's an investment.

So what you need to face Gerry is that all these self-centered motives disqualifies you for heaven. SO your only hope is the righteous "in Christ" imputed to you....And yes you will also experience Christ's imparted righteousness...but let's face it...we "fall short."

That's my point....I am not saying to become homeless. Christ wouldn't even say that, but if we really lived His life that would be the result because we live is a world dominated with self!

[Gerr]

Again, to get back to the man of Rom 7.

To summarize:

1. Man of R7 know the law, 7:1.

2. Unspiritual, 7:14

3. Carnal, 7:14

4. Slave to sin, 7:14

5. Agrees with what the law says but cannot do what it says, 7:15-20

6. Indwelt by sin, 7:20

7. Even indwardly delights in the law of God, but remains captive to the law of sin, 7:23.

8. A wretched man, in need of deliverance, 7:24.

Paul's description of a converted person.

1. Cannot continue in sin, 6:1,2

2. Dead to sin, 6:2

3. Raised from the dead to walk in newness of life, 6:4.

4. Old life, the old man has been crucified, 6:6

5. No longer slave of sin, 6:6

6. Freed from sin, 6:7

7. Dead to sin, but alive to God, 6:11

8. No longer under the dominion of sin, 6:14

9. Cannot continue in sin even though he is no longer under law but under grace, 6:15

10. Slavery to sin is a PAST experience, 6:17

11. Obedient to the teachings received, 6:17

12. Slave of righteousness, not slave of sin, 6:18

13. ONCE slaves of uncleanness, lawlessness, but now slave of righteousness & holiness, 6:19

14. Set free from sin and has become slaves of God, 6:22

15. Walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh, 8:1

16. By walking according to the Spirit, the righteous requirements of the law becomes a fulfilled reality in the believer's life, 8:4

17. Cannot be carnally minded because this means death, instead, a converted person is spiritually minded, 8:6

18. Not carnal like R7 man, but in the Spirit, 8:9

19. Indwelt by the Spirit, not sin, 8:9, and therefore has spiritual life, 8:10,11.

20. By the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the body, 8:13.

The contrast between the two is like night and day.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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So what you need to face Gerry is that all these self-centered motives disqualifies you for heaven. SO your only hope is the righteous "in Christ" imputed to you....And yes you will also experience Christ's imparted righteousness...but let's face it...we "fall short."

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[:"blue"]So then, what are you saying, that by claiming the righteousness of Christ, I can continue to have self-centered motives that would disqualify me for heaven? The righteousness of Christ becomes a cloak to excuse wicked living? Totally absurd!!! [/]

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That's my point....I am not saying to become homeless. Christ wouldn't even say that,

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[:"blue"] Then if He did not say that, whose sayings have you been quoting? Who was it who said, "Whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." Lk 14:33 NKJ. [/]

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but if we really lived His life that would be the result because we live is a world dominated with self!

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[:"blue"]Actually, when we have the mind of Christ, then He can entrust us with more worldly possessions so that we can be a blessing to the advancement of the gospel and bless more poor people. Look in the OT, while we are to acknowledge that God is the ultimate owner of everything, yet you will find that God asked only a faithful tithe, a liberal offering, and generosity to the poor.

And I should thank you for stimulating my thinking even though I consider yours to be a ridiculous proposition; by studying the subject, I have a better idea of my own stewardship to what God has placed in my possession. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Robert said: "So what you need to face Gerry is that all these self-centered motives disqualifies you for heaven."

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What was that Paul said? Right, "all have sinned AND fall short of the glory of God." What are we good Christians doing that makes us not fully measure up?

Well, in general I keep the law...i.e., its letter. Even here I mess up, but maybe that's because I am an immature Christian. But my point is all of us are missing the mark! Why?

Well, I've used this "homeless" thing not because I think I am absolutely right, but because I am trying to make a point.

And the point is that we "Fall short" because the law not only requires perfect outward obedience, it also requires our motive (why we do what we do) to be perfect. Who said that?..well Ellen White:

• -PC- RH

  -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

  -DT- 05-03-98

  -AT- God's Standard of Character

  -PR- 04

  "In his sermon on the mount, Christ made known the comprehensive and far-reaching character of the law of God. He applied its great principles to the thoughts and the desires."

  -BC- 2MCP

  -TI- Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2

  -CN- 61

  -CT- The Vital Function of God's Laws

  -PR- 01

  -PG- 564

  ".If the law extended to the outward conduct only, men would not be guilty in their wrong thoughts, desires, and designs. But the law requires that the soul itself be pure and the mind holy, that the thoughts and feelings may be in accordance with the standard of love and righteousness."

When you realize this, surely you will exclaim..."Oh wretched man that I am...."

Rob

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

God gives gifts for His children to enjoy, not to take them away and make them miserable. If the plague spot in ones life that may keep one out of heaven is one's possessions, then God does ask us to part with them. Read the context again of Luke 12:33 by reading all the verses before it. The same Christ who gave the gift of wealth & possessions cannot be asking you to get rid of all of them and wind up mooching on unbelievers.

Here is an interesting statement from the one you like to quote.

[:"red"]

"The desire to accumulate wealth is an

original

affection of our nature,

implanted there by our heavenly Father for noble ends.

CS 149. [/]

What has happened is that this desire that was designed for noble ends has been perverted by sin so that the end has become self. So it makes sense that the same author would say that our first duty to God and our fellowmen is self-development. For what purpose? For self alone? NO. We develop ourselves and that includes the accumulation of wealth so that we can better bless others.

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I agree with what Gerry is putting forth here. I like being able to be in a position to give to the needs, causes and people I care about, to help others when they are in need and bring blessings to them using the money I have earned by my own time and labor. I have no interest in becoming a burden to either family, friends, or the State. Anything I do for myself in turn affects other people. If I take healthy care of myself I become a healthy, happy person who is able (I hope) to be a source of blessing to other people socially, emotionally, even materially. If I let myself become sick, or needy, or uncared-for, or destitute, it affects my attitude and behavior. I have found from experience that poverty CREATES an obsessive focus upon the self rather than relieving it, whereas a degree of financial self-sufficiency frees one to focus on the needs and wants of others around him.

At the same time, I'm not advocating a focus upon the accumulation of wealth for wealth's sake, or vanity's -- simply the ability to take care of oneself, to not be a burden upon others or the State, and to have a position from which to bless others.

There are those who are consumed by their wealth and there are those who use it to establish charities and trusts to help make the world a better place for those less fortunate. Where would those blessings be if those people who had that wealth had never had it to do such things with it?

As a side note, there is something particularly abhorrent about the fellow who sets himself up as Oh So Spiritual and uses that as a basis for arguing that others should see to his every need and whim because he is Too Spiritual to do common things like work, earn a living, or establish a household. That kind of person gives a black eye to all notion of prophets, messengers, teachers, and other types of spiritually gifted folk. (And I've seen/met a few from just about any tradition or religion you care to name!)

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If your discipleship and salvation is dependent on your total divestiture of all your possessions, have you done that yet...?

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And here is the crux of the matter. If someone is, say for example, a cigarette smoker, how can you take them seriously whilst they prattle on about how bad it is for your health and how it will destroy your spiritual walk? If someone wants to advocate something as the ideal they should commit to living it first; else they will appear as mere gadflies whose rhetoric is not to be taken seriously.

[Gerr]

I am amazed as to how you can keep quoting EGW and yet consider her as not "a measuring stick of truth". If she is not to be used as authority, then why bother to quote her? Then let's stick to the Bible alone!!!

Gerry

[Nicodema]

I realize you asked Gerry, not me, but I can speak to this: I give without worrying about getting it back, and I'm not homeless. Usually people pay back what they borrow of their own free will without any need to ask for it. On some occasions they don't, or they forget, in which case it's no big deal.

Again, I think the point was not some all-encompassing literalist absolutism in every detail, but the principle involved: not to be attached to possessions, to regard people as more important than things, and regard things and money as tools to be used to bless people. To cultivate an attitude of being happy to meet others' needs, considering it a blessing and honor to be so trusted that another would risk vulnerability with you to ask you for something, and to not worry about what will become of yourself in the process.

I've been burned a few times trying to walk this out in life, had the advantage taken of me by some unpleasant folk before because of it, but on the whole I wouldn't change it for the world. And it has never left me homeless to do it, and I'm 41 now. I doubt it ever will.

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Robert said:

Gerry...be honest and don't try to dodge the following questions:

• Luke 6:27 [NIV] “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies,
  do good to those who hate you
  , 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
  30
  Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
  31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Gerry, if you did as Jesus commands how long would it be until you had no possessions left?

• 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that.
  34 And
  if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment
  , what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full.
  35
  But love your enemies, do good to them, [:"red"]and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.
  [:"black"] Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

IF you lent your money out without expecting to it back, how long would it be until you were like Christ - i.e., homeless?

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