Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Gerr]

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When you realize this, surely you will exclaim..."Oh wretched man that I am...."

Rob

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[:"blue"]Yes, that WAS my condition before I came to a real relationship with Christ. But when you grasp what a deliverance God has done for you when when He "delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins," Col 1:13,14 NKJ, you will no longer keep thinking of yourself as "wretched, naked, & blind." It's time you start thinking about what a rich inheritance the believer has.[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Robert said:

"...Christ made known the comprehensive

and far-reaching

character of the law of God. He applied its great principles

to the thoughts and the desires

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That's the issue in Romans 7:7 "....Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

Coveting is not an act! It is a thought...a desire! That is the reason Paul brings out the following point in verse 13:

"In order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment [i.e., the 10th] sin might become sinful beyond measure."

So when Paul says, "what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do" he is referencing the spirit of the law. That's the context!

In other words his thoughts and desires aren't perfect. Yes...he's keeping the letter of the law, but he is falling short of its spiritual requirements.

Please be honest with the context....If you don't you'll get confused! This applies to you too Norman.

EGW [for you guys]:

• -BC- AA

  -TI- The Acts of the Apostles

  -CN- 55

  -CT- Transformed by Grace

  -PR- 02

  -PG- 562

  "Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession

  of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness."

You see the law doesn't give out credit! Christ doesn't give out partial credit....Your salvation is not based on 80% of your good deeds and 20% of Christ's righteousness. No, it is all of Christ. You are either saved 100% by Christ's doing and dying [what He accomplished 2000 years ago] or you are saved partially by what He does in you. The later is what Paul terms "another gospel"!

Remember that what He does in you doesn't save you. Then why does God examine your works?

He, God, uses your works in the judgment to examine the source of your fruit. He brings it up because Satan is accusing you! Satan says, "God, you have no right to take Gerry to heaven because he is a sinner."

What will God say to Satan? One of two things:

1] You are right, but his faith is in Me! His works prove it because they are free of self-righteousness. Therefore Gerry is perfect in My Son!

Or

2] You are right...his faith isn't in Me fully for his ticket to heaven. His fruit is mingled with self-righteousness because of the perverted gospel that he has accepted. Because of that I can't cover Him with my robe of righteousness. He's yours....

Something to think about,

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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When you realize this, surely you will exclaim..."Oh wretched man that I am...."

Rob

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Yes, that WAS my condition before I came to a real relationship with Christ.

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Maybe you are confused to what I am stating? Let me clarify:

1] "In Christ" I have a new creation....I have accepted that by faith. So I can say that "In Him" I am 100% righteous...I am anything but wretched. That's "In Him"!

2] However, because I have yet to receive that glorified humanity from Him I am of myself, wretched. Not because I am just like the wicked - living for the flesh openly - but rather because I realize that in my walk I am not fully measuring up to God's love as seen in Christ's life 2000 years ago....

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

1. Man of R7 knows the law, 7:1.

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More than that He understands the spirit of the law. This can only be manifested through the Spirit....Hence conversion.

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2. Unspiritual, 7:14

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You must quote more: "We know that the law is spiritual [it's more than the mere letter]; but I am unspiritual...."

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3. Carnal, 7:14

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Or "unspiritual" in the sense he falls short. The other versions use "unspiritual"!

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4. Slave to sin, 7:14

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"of flesh, sold into bondage to sin"...If you weren't sinning then you wouldn't be "under sin"!

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5. Agrees with what the law says but cannot do what it says, 7:15-20

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Again the context is "the spirit of the law"....The same is true of you are you would not be falling short.

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6. Indwelt by sin, 7:20

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Last time I checked none of us has "holy flesh"! We still retain our sinful nature....

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7. Even inwardly delights in the law of God, but remains captive to the law of sin, 7:23.

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Because he isn't living perfectly....again the spirit of the law is the context!

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8. A wretched man, in need of deliverance, 7:24.

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From what? The law or sin? The fact is we had to be delivered from the law because it condemns us.

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Paul's description of a converted person.

1. Cannot continue in sin, 6:1,2

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Please remember 1 John 1:8 and Romans 3:23! You are confused.

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2. Dead to sin, 6:2

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If you were dead to sin you wouldn't be sinning. We "consider ourselves dead to sin"....We "reckon"....Hence we "delight in the law after the inward man" Romans 7:22

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3. Raised from the dead to walk in newness of life, 6:4.

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Yes...our mind is in harmony with the law. We have been born again....The law written in the mind:

"but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members"

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4. Old life, the old man has been crucified, 6:6

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"In Christ"...read the context....Your old man is still alive, although you, through the spirit, are trying not to let him have his way....

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5. No longer slave of sin, 6:6

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"In Christ"...not in you!

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6. Freed from sin, 6:7

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"In Christ"! READ the context!

This is waste of time....You are perverting the scriptures to make it appear that YOU are sinless....Only sinless people are "freed from sin."

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

I hope you enjoyed the meeting with Jack.

I only have a moment.

If all that you have said is correct, then at the very least a person would have a constant desire and the abilty to reveal an undefeatable love. The first love effect would be a motive hard to defeat. But, thanks be to God we are not left with our ownselves, in our own strength, to reveal a love and appreciation for God. When we do love God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent (To be our substitute, surety and example of what humans can be like with the indwelling Sprit) then God sends and we receive the Holy Spirit that transforms us into a replica of Jesus in that we now love as He loves, because it is not us, but Christ in us that does the loving. We are mere earthen vessels that the excellency may be of God and not of us. Yes, the context appears to be in Christ, but it is also Christ in us. This is what Paul begins to discribe in R7:25 and then continues all through R8. After we receive the Spirit, the Good News is better understood and we now have the power to do those things that we could not do before when we were struggling to overcome our flesh.

The Bible does not teach that we will not be righteous here. It teaches that we will receive immortality at Christ's 2nd coming. 1Jo 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. " This is not discribing a state of righteousness that we get only, in Christ. It is telling us that in Him and in doing righteousness we are righteous. Read it in context as well. Especially the next verse.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

The Bible does not teach that we will not be righteous here. It teaches that we will receive immortality at Christ's 2nd coming. 1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. " This is not describing a state of righteousness that we get only, in Christ. It is telling us that in Him and in doing righteousness we are righteous. Read it in context as well.

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"Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."

What you say sounds reasonable, but it does not agree with the overall context. Take 1 John 1:8 -- "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

And please do not forget Jesus and Paul's own words:

Matt 19:17 "There is none good but one, that is, God"

Romans 3:12 "no one does good, not even one"

And Paul, by his own admission, states that he wasn't perfect (see Phil 3:12). So how can you insist that John's statement ("The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous") is speaking of perfection when there are so many other verses that deny your assumption?

Well, I think I can help you understand John. Turn to John 15:1 [NIV]

1 "I [Jesus] am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He [God] cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This language speaks of growth, not perfection. Let's read on:

3 You [i.e., you believers] [:"red"]are already clean[:"black"] because of the word I have spoken to you.

There's perfection! "In Christ" we already stand clean! That's why John says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Verse 4: Remain in me [by faith], and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

So what does John mean by, "The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous"? Does He mean we are perfect in performance just like Christ? NO! He means that "in Christ" we already stand clean! Only "In Him" are we righteous....

Would you like some more evidence? Good:

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, [:"red"]not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy[:"black"],

How?

"by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Where...in us? NO! Look at the context:

6 whom He poured out upon us richly in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Now where was your life when Christ cleansed our fallen humanity? Right..."in Him"! Your old life was renewed in the body of Christ through the washing of regeneration. So again, "in Christ" you have already been made clean!

Here’s more evidence:

Romans 8:1 THERE is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why is Paul stating this fact? Because the man of Romans is trusting in Christ [see Rom 7:25] for his ticket to heaven. Yes is failing to keep the spirit of the law. The question is why can we trust to our position “in Christ” by faith? Read on:

Verse 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [i.e., the power of the Holy Spirit]…[where, in you? NO!] in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Note the power of the Holy Spirit “IN CHRIST” defeated “the law of sin” and the power of the grave [death]. All this was done “in Christ”! That’s your only hope of perfection.

One more verse: “It is because of him [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our justification, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.” 1 Cor 1:30,31

[Robert]

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Norman said:

The Bible does not teach that we will not be righteous here.

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I've alreadly given Bible quotes that denies perfection. Now I'll give you EGW:

"Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness [perfection]."

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained."

[Robert]

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"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom 4:28

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Why can't we be justified by our law obedience. Well, I've taken the position that we can't because we are failing to live His life. But let's say (for arguments sake) that you, Norman, have lived a life of perfection. Does that answer the demands of the law? No...it actually answers 1/3. So at best the law would give you a score of 33%.

Well, what does the law require of the sinner?

1] Holy flesh! The very fact you have indwelling sin makes you a sinner is the eyes of God. Did you know that? Read the following: Psalm 51:5; Eph. 2:3 (last part); 1 Cor 15:50; Rom 5:18

2] Death because you failed # 1 and you have sinned in the past. How can you die the 2nd death and yet make it to heaven? You can't! Only "in Christ" are 1 & 2 possible.

3] The law also requires perfect, unblemished righteousness. If we forget you past sins and assume you've been perfect since then, you have only fulfilled 1 out of 3 requirements.

That's why by the works of the law no one will be justified in God's sight.....

Rob

[Robert]

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Robert said:

I've alreadly given Bible quotes that denies perfection. Now I'll give you EGW:

"Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart,

they will not boast of sinlessness [perfection]

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"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say,

I have fully attained.

"

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More:

• -BC- SL

  -TI- The Sanctified Life

  -CN- 6

  -CT- Daniel's Prayers

  -PR- 02

  -PG- 50

  The clearer their views of the greatness, glory, and perfection of Christ, the more vividly will they see their own weakness and imperfection. They will have no disposition to claim a sinless character; that which has appeared right and comely in themselves will, in contrast with Christ's purity and glory, appear only as unworthy and corruptible. It is when men are separated from God, when they have very indistinct views of Christ, that they say, "I am sinless; I am sanctified."

  -BC- 3SM

  -TI- Selected Messages Book 3

  -CN- 52

  -CT- Sinlessness and Salvation

  -PR- 02

  -PG- 354

  Why is it that so many claim to be holy and sinless? It is because they are so far from Christ. I have never dared to claim any such a thing. From the time that I was 14 years old, if I knew what the will of God was, I was willing to do it. You never have heard me say I am sinless. Those that get sight of the loveliness and exalted character of Jesus Christ, who was holy and lifted up and His train fills the temple, will never say it. Yet we are to meet with those that will say such things more and more.

  -BC- AA

  -TI- The Acts of the Apostles

  -CN- 55

  -CT- Transformed by Grace

  -PR- 03

  -PG- 561

  Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

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[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

Just have a minute this morning.

What you are doing is mixing up sinlessness, perfection and righteousness. Righteousness comes by faith and sinlessness comes at Christ's return, they are not the same thing. Having said that, when we do what is right by the power of the Holy Spirit, in love for our fellow man, that is righteousness, not sinlessness or perfection. They are not the same in the Bible nor in SOP.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Having said that, when we do what is right by the power of the Holy Spirit, in love for our fellow man, that is righteousness, not sinlessness or perfection.

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If, through the Spirit, I do not lie, kill and steal, but I covet - am I righteous?

Or better yet...if I, through the Spirit, keep nine of the commandments, but keep Sunday...am I considered righteous?

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Having said that, when we do what is right by the power of the Holy Spirit, in love for our fellow man, that is righteousness, not sinlessness or perfection. They are not the same in the Bible nor in SOP.

Norman

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EGW: "The clearer their views of the greatness, glory, and perfection of Christ, the more vividly will they see their own weakness and imperfection. They will have no disposition to claim a sinless character; that which has appeared right and comely in themselves will, in contrast with Christ's purity and glory, appear only as unworthy and corruptible....."

A sinless character has nothing to do with "holy flesh" - being free of our sinful nature.

Let's go over an EGW statement point by point. This may shed light on our conundrum:

• "The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary,"

There's no doubt that EGW is speaking of believers here on earth before translation! Note the things they do, which she compares to "incense"....Prayer, praise and the confession of sin.

• "but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity , they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God."

The phrase, "corrupt channels of humanity" must refer to our fallen, sinful humanity indwelt with "the law of sin" - the principle of "self"! Does that affect our performance? Let's read on:

• "They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God."

What is she referring to when she states, "they ascend not..."? Well, what's the context? "The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin...." What's wrong with these actions that they are not acceptable to God?

• "All incense from earthly tabernacles [i.e., our fallen, humanity] must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He [Jesus] holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, [:"red"]in which there is no taint of earthly corruption."[:"black"] "He [Jesus] gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts [:"red"]His own spotless righteousness [:"black"]. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

Now notice her next statement!

• Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, [:"blue"]in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving[:"black"], must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat. [1SM 344]

Did you get that? Our best isn't good enough!!!! Our obedience isn't pure.... Hence, as Paul says, we "fall short" of God's selfless love!

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

1. Man of R7 knows the law, 7:1.

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More than that He understands the spirit of the law. This can only be manifested through the Spirit....Hence conversion.

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[:"blue"]On his way to Damascus to persecute believers, Paul knew the law. Was he converted? Caiaphas the priest knew the law, that did not keep him from being party to a murder. The Parisee in the temple knew the law, but that did not keep him from looking down and feeling superior over another person.

To the Jews were "committed the oracles of God." Rom 3:1,2. Were they all converted? [/]

Gerry

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2. Unspiritual, 7:14

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You must quote more: "We know that the law is spiritual [it's more than the mere letter]; but I am unspiritual...."

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3. Carnal, 7:14

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Or "unspiritual" in the sense he falls short. The other versions use "unspiritual"!

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[:"blue"]That is your own eisegesis. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit, " [:"red"]dwells in you and will be in you," John 14:17 NKJ. [/]In the same chapter Jesus promised, [:"red"]"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." 14:23 NKJ. [/]

A mind indwelt by the Godhead cannot be unspiritual. When God who is spirit dwells in the mind of the believer, he cannot help but be spiritual. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Righteousness comes by faith and sinlessness comes at Christ's return, they are not the same things.

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If I am tempted by a woman and refuse her, through the spirit, I haven't committed adultery. Yet the law requires much more of me....It requires my thoughts to be perfect. If, while being tempted by this woman, I lusted for her even one milli-second, under the law I am considered a transgressor!

Proof: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart [mind]."

Hey look...I am not against growth...I am not against using the law as a standard of Christian living, but I am not deceived that I keeping the whole of the law. I am never measuring up to its fullness....That's my point. We need Christ's righteousness...we need His robe of righteousness to cover the shame of our nakedness.

Anyway, I maintain that the man of Romans 7 is converted.

Your friend,

Rob

[Robert]

Your arguments are very poor.

[Gerr]

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4. Slave to sin, 7:14

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"of flesh, sold into bondage to sin"...If you weren't sinning then you wouldn't be "under sin"!

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[:"blue"]I suggest you spend some time with 1 Jn 3, especially these verses.

[:"red"]"And everyone who has this hope [resting] on Him cleanses (purifies) himself just as He is pure (chaste, undefiled, guiltless).

Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness: for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violation of God's law by transgression or neglect - being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).

You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [essentially and forever].

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neighter is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow believer in Christ). 1 Jn 3:3-6, 9,10 Amp. [/] [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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3. Carnal, 7:14

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Or "unspiritual" in the sense he falls short.

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[:"blue"]As I said before, no one in God's creation, not even the unfallen angels can/could measure up to God's unfathomable love, otherwise they would be God themselves! So, if falling short always means that one is sinning, then the unfallen angels themselves are sinners. That's absurd!!! Paul says that, [:"red"] "he who loves another has fulfilled the law." Rom 13:8 NKJ. No one can ever love as God loves, but when we genuinely love, God accepts that fulfilling/completing the spiritual requirements of the law, but not accepted as merit. [/] [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

Having said that, when we do what is right by the power of the Holy Spirit, in love for our fellow man, that is righteousness, not sinlessness or perfection.

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If, through the Spirit, I do not lie, kill and steal, but I covet - am I righteous?

Or better yet...if I, through the Spirit, keep nine of the commandments, but keep Sunday...am I considered righteous?

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[:"blue"] The Apostle John says that you cannot be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and knowingly, deliberately covet or break any of the commandments of which you are convinced is wrong to do. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit, " dwells in you and will be in you," John 14:17 NKJ.

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Yes...and He writes on your mind the principle of God's agape love! But the flesh remains 100% self-seeking...it doesn't change. The change occurs in the mind [what the Bible calls the heart].

First of all the Spirit's work in us is not so that we can merit salvation through His work. If He did He would be opposing the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

No the Spirit's work in us is so that we can "experience" righteousness as we mature in the faith. Hence sanctification is not meritorious, it is demonstrative...it is something we experience. We grow, but all along we fall short between where we are and what the spirit of the law requires (not that we are under the law).

However His work is us doesn't come naturally. Let's face it...Christian living is hard. The Spirit has to have permission to work! So His work in us involves a human element. That's where the problem is! If we could perfectly understand God's love...if we could perfectly surrender to Him, then "yes" I believe that we could walk just like Jesus walked! In this respect we would be living sinlessly while in sinful flesh.

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”

[Gerr]

Why do you keep quoting EGW when in your view she is not to be used as authority/measuring stick for truth?

What's the point? Why not just use Scripture?

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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As I said before, no one in God's creation, not even the unfallen angels can/could measure up to God's unfathomable love, otherwise they would be God themselves! So, if falling short always means that one is sinning, then the unfallen angels themselves are sinners.

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The angels do not have "the law of sin" [the principle of the love of self] in their beings. You do! That's the problem....

The angels are just as perfect as God is perfect. The sinless human beings on other planets are perfect, just as God is perfect.

Now sure, the source of their righteousness is God Himself. Hence, "God is love"....He is the author of love. That's not what we are discussing.....What we are falling short of is His agape love. That's Paul's point in Rom 3:23

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Why do you keep quoting EGW when in your view she is not to be used as authority/measuring stick for truth?

What's the point? Why not just use Scripture?

Gerry

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Because Adventists, in general, give EGW the final word....So I use her "other statements" to cause them to think!

Think, Gerry...

Rob

[Robert]

I am going to start another post under Bible and theology named, "Is sinless living in sinful flesh possible?"

Well, I am not sure...but Jack Sequeira (my buddy) thinks it is possible....

Maybe??? but if it does happen it sure will be interesting how it comes about....I'll start the discussion with an EGW statement.....

Tune in!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Robert,

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If, through the Spirit, I do not lie, kill and steal, but I covet - am I righteous?

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In this example, if you are continually coveting then you are not converted you are not righteous because by your continual actions you show that you have no faith in Christ and you have not accepted the Gospel. If you covet once or very rarely, you are righteous. Because you are living by the Spirit and from time to time you may fail.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is clearly tells us that those who contunally sin are not of God and that Jesus was sent to take us out of this situation by destroying the works or lies and plans of the devil.

Just as I have brought up in another reply, Peter was unconverted and he was counted as saved and in the very day that he was told that he was uncoverted Jesus said to His Father, that none were lost (including Peter) save Judas.

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Or better yet...if I, through the Spirit, keep nine of the commandments, but keep Sunday...am I considered righteous?

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That depends if you know what the Sabbath is. If you know it is a requirement of God's law and do not keep it you are sinning. Jam 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." There are many who don't know about it and they are in their heart, doing what they believe God requires of them. These types of sins Jesus covers and they are righteous in God's sight. God will not let them stay in that state of ignorance though. Likewise we don't know our condition and God forgives these sins until he reveals them to us and then we must seek God for the victory. In fact if you love God you will be thankful to God for revealing this to you.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

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Hey look...I am not against growth...I am not against using the law as a standard of Christian living, but I am not deceived that I keeping the whole of the law. I am never measuring up to its fullness....That's my point. We need Christ's righteousness...we need His robe of righteousness to cover the shame of our nakedness.

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Rob, I believe that and have never said that we could keep the whole law or would be perfect or sinless. The whole time I have simply been saying that conversion is not like what is discribed in R7. I believe that Paul is definitley converted in all of his letters but that in R7 he's giving a reality of what's in him (and us) and how there is a struggle within and it's a losing cause. But there is victory over that enslaved condition. That victory is in Christ and Christ in me. I will still fail and grow but I will not as a converted man struggle over and over with the same sins or struggle with doing good. I don't see that in the Bible or SOP nor has my experience revealed that to me.

Just a few more comments on Paul; when he says that he's the chief of sinners, he is speaking in reference to his past life, not his current state. I guess you would not agree with that because that is basically what I am saying about R7.

I will try to get part 2 of the 4 together and that will pretty much wrap it up for me.

Take care and God bless Rob

Norman