Robert Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 First, I'll see what Ellen White stated since this is an SDA forum: “Whether all the children of unbelieving parents will be saved we cannot tell, becauseGod has not made known His purpose in regard to this matter, and we had better leave it where God has left it and dwell upon subjects made plain in His Word.”–3SM 315 (1885). Okay, that was in 1885 In 1890, she stated the following: The question has been asked me, 'Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?' I answer that he has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the word of truth. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us." (RH, June 3, 1890 par. 2) Two years later she stated the following: "There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892 So let's investigate. Eph 2:5 But because of his great love (agape) for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (sinners)--it is by grace you have been saved. Note that Paul does not say, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith" as he does later in verse 8. When we were sinners God's grace "in Christ" saved us, not by faith, but by grace...by God's mercy poured out on us "in Christ Jesus". When do we come into this world "dead in transgressions"? Ps 51:8 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Are newborns sinners? Yes! While they aren't murdering, stealing and committing adultery, etc, they are, at no fault of their own, selfish. They, like all of us, are born "bent-to-self". The question is, are newborns guilty before God's law since they are sinners? The answer is no! Why? One word: Volition! Guilt requires volition. Newborns cannot even fathom the concepts of guilt, sin and their need of Christ. Therefore they can't be guilty before God's law. "sin not imputed when there is no law." Rom 5:13 "for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20 "the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation" Rom 4:15 Unchained 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I'm posting a link to a study on my website dealing with this topic. I do NOT believe that anyone is physically born in a saved condition. Jesus said, "You must be born again." http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/1-BOOK%20OF%20LIFE%20-Challenge.pdf I will print a few verses from the study: John 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:” By implication, those who do not believe in His name (or who do not yet believe) - who have not “received Him” - are not (or not yet) children of God. Because HEARING THE TRUTH is necessary for salvation! I Thessalonians 3:16 [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,” To paraphrase Paul, “If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot be saved.” Acts 16:30-31 “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” v. 33 “And immediately he and all his family were baptized.” John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” John 11:25-26 “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” THE NEXT VERSE IS VERY IMPORTANT!! Romans 10:14 “But how are they to call on One in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in One of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim Him?” (NRS) Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.” (NRS) Hearing the gospel message - is essential! So - what about little children? Have you witnessed a 2 yr old, having a tantrum in the isle at Walmart? Do you seriously believe that child is "born again" ? Children, those mentally challenged, AND those who have never heard the gospel - all are committing "sins of ignorance" which Christ's blood does cover. BUT - it is NOT JUST to give these people a "Free Pass" into the Kingdom, just because the circumstances of their lives did not permit them to hear and understand the gospel. I believe the blood of Christ will cover these people, giving them an extension of probation. It is my personal belief that these people will be resurrected as "the rest of the dead". They will be raised to continue their physical lives, on this earth, AFTER the 7th millennium. They will be taught the "way of the LORD". They will hear the gospel. THEN they will have to choose. Most will refuse to believe, and will rebel against the rule of Christ. They will come up as the Hordes of Gog, to attack Jerusalem, the center of the government of Christ. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Robert (and Samie also) teaches that all children are born in a saved condition, and can only be "lost" if/when they reject Christ as their savior. If THAT is so, then we should NOT send out missionaries to teach them. If they never know the Gospel, then they cannot reject Christ, and won't be lost. Teaching them actually hastens their demise. Doesn't make sense - to me. You remember how the Baptists came up with the idea of "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" because the idea of being lost to a "forever burning Hell" was just too horrible? Well - I think this teaching of "born saved" is along the same lines. No one wants to think of their child being "lost". We just did not have any logical way to explain HOW the LORD was going to "save" children, or the mentally challenged, or those "unreached" by the Gospel. THAT was my BIG QUESTION. It just did not seem "fair" or "just" to give a free pass to the child of a Muslim terrorist, just because he happened to DIE as a child. In the Kingdom, I could end up living next door to a Mayan King who cut out human hearts - simply because he died before missionaries could reach him (therefore making all his sins - "sins of ignorance"). But IF the LORD will deal with all those who HAVE consciously rejected Him - at the Second Coming, and THEN will resurrect all those who HAVE NOT yet consciously reject Him (as "the rest of the dead") THAT scenario would give every one of those children, and others the opportunity to HEAR and believe, or REJECT/REBEL and die at Gog/Magog. Revelation 20:6 says that all of those from the "first resurrection" will be "priests of God and of Christ". Priests taught the Law. Priests were judges. Priests were ministers of atonement (reconciliation). What need for priests AFTER the Second Coming, if everyone who will be saved is already there????? All I ask is that you read thru the studies and consider my position prayerfully. Even Mrs. White said that more light would be revealed. Respectfully, Rachel Cory Prophecy Viewpoint Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Your reply didn't mention Eph 2:4,5....Also, you need to look at Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 In the Kingdom, I could end up living next door to a Mayan King who cut out human hearts - simply because he died before missionaries could reach him (therefore making all his sins - "sins of ignorance"). Here you are writing about adults....Those who have reached the age of accountability. Turn to Romans chapter 2: "For all who have sinned without the Law (a knowledge of the law) will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law (a knowledge of the law) will be judged by the Law" Why should those who do not have a knowledge of the law, perish? Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. So the Gentiles who didn't know the law were made aware of God though what was created. Then Paul says, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves...." So these didn't know of Jesus, yet they realize a higher power...a creator. They are accepted in Christ. The evidence? They bear fruit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 IActs 16:30-31 “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” v. 33 “And immediately he and all his family were baptized.” Again, these are adults who have legally been justified in Christ, but need to receive what is already true of them. Hence justification by faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 I believe the blood of Christ will cover these people, giving them an extension of probation. That's unbiblical..... Children, those mentally challenged, AND those who have never heard the gospel - all are committing "sins of ignorance" which Christ's blood does cover. BUT - it is NOT JUST to give these people a "Free Pass" into the Kingdom, just because the circumstances of their lives did not permit them to hear and understand the gospel. Yes, it is just because they have been legally justified in Christ....Christ's doing & dying has legally satisfied God's law. You need to get that down.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The ‘Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world’ (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. [EGW] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 Guilt requires volition. Newborns cannot even fathom the concepts of guilt, sin and their need of Christ. Therefore they can't be guilty before God's law. "sin not imputed when there is no law." Rom 5:13 "for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20 "the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation" Rom 4:15 Did you forget the above? Did God mean the above (since He inspired Paul) or was He joking? Was the human race justified unto life in Christ, or not? (see Rom 5:18) Let's look at the details: "13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses (where the law was given), even over those who did not sin by breaking a command (a known command), as did Adam....." Question: Why was the human race dying between the fall of Adam and the giving of the law (Moses) if the law was not charging mankind with transgression? Answer: "Death (the 1st death) spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)" Rom 5:12 NASB In other words the human race between Adam & Moses died because they shared Adam's fallen life. They died because of the results of sin, not because of guilt. This is the first death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 In other words the human race between Adam & Moses died because they shared Adam's fallen life. They died because of the results of sin, not because of guilt. This is the first death. Why didn't they die because of transgression (guilt)? Because the law of God had not been legally established (i.e., posted at Sinai) and where there is no law there is no transgression. It is the law that condemns men to the 2nd death. That tells me that those between Adam & Moses will not be raised to face the curse of the law, i.e., the 2nd death, if they rejected God through indirect revelation (see Rom 1:20). Infants, who die before reaching the age of accountability, cannot comprehend God's Spirit and therefore what Jesus did legally justified them until eternal life. Again, see Romans 5:18 NASB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Why didn't they die because of transgression (guilt)? Because the law of God had not been legally established (i.e., posted at Sinai) and where there is no law there is no transgression. It is the law that condemns men to the 2nd death. That tells me that those between Adam & Moses will not be raised to face the curse of the law, i.e., the 2nd death, if they rejected God through indirect revelation (see Rom 1:20). Infants, who die before reaching the age of accountability, cannot comprehend God's Spirit and therefore what Jesus did legally justified them until eternal life. Again, see Romans 5:18 NASB I see this interpretation as a form of predestination - destiny without choice. I don't believe in destiny WITHOUT CHOICE. Every human being MUST CHOOSE. THAT is why I believe that "the rest of the dead" will be those who died without the mental maturity or information to CHOOSE. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I have read Romans 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." (NKJ) Yes - the free gift is available for all, BUT each one must accept the gift - by believing. Believing is NOT A WORK. Believing is a response of the human mind to the spirit of Christ. The spirit works in conjunction WITH the preaching of the Gospel by men. The spirit tells the individual that what he has heard is the truth. I think that Paul makes it clear - a few verses down, that we must be "baptized into His death" (Rom 6:3). Jesus made it clear "that which is born of flesh is flesh" (Jn 3:6) and "flesh and blood CANNOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God" (1Cor. 15:50). Only those who are "born again" (thru belief in Christ) will share in the Kingdom, and infants are not physically born - in a "born again" spiritual condition. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 That's unbiblical..... Yes, it is just because they have been legally justified in Christ....Christ's doing & dying has legally satisfied God's law. You need to get that down.... It is NOT unbiblical to give an extension of probation to those who had never heard of Yahweh or His Law, must less Christ Jesus. AFTER the death of His Son, did God not grant continued probation to mankind? If everything was finished at the cross, then probation should have ENDED on THAT day. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Yes, it is just because they have been legally justified in Christ....Christ's doing & dying has legally satisfied God's law. You need to get that down.... I HAVE that "down" Robert. Jesus Christ fulfilled the TERMS of the Covenant with Abraham, and the Covenant of Sinai. Because HE fulfilled the TERMS (perfect obedience) - He will receive "the land". He will be given "dominion" of this earth, and dominion will be taken from Satan (Daniel 7). At the conclusion of the Daniel 7 judgment, Christ will receive the "dominion". With the "dominion" comes every human being who has ever lived WITHIN that dominion. That is WHY all judgment is committed to the Son. It comes WITH the dominion. Christ will decide which human beings will share in HIS KINGDOM. He wanted them all. But not everyone would respond to His invitation. I believe that one’s name is written into the Lamb’s Book of Life, the moment that one is “in Christ”. That status change takes place when one genuinely believes in his heart. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (Jn 10:27). The implication being that there are sheep who do not follow Him, and are therefore not His. Romans 16:7 [Paul writing] “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” If every human being starts life in the Book of Life, then how could anyone still living NOT be “in Christ” - at least until he commits an unforgivable act, or fails to believe before he dies. But here Paul says that Andronicus and Junia were “in Christ” before he was. Sounds like an EVENT which happens in time. John 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:” By implication, those who do not believe in His name (or who do not yet believe) - who have not “received Him” - are not (or not yet) children of God. Galatians 3:26-27 and 4:6 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, ‘Abba, Father!’” It would seem that only those who have demonstrated their faith thru baptism, are considered Sons of God, and “in Christ”. In his letter Paul is addressing believers. He is not saying that all men are sons of God. The death of Christ is appropriated or applied to each individual when he/she believes and enters into the death of Christ thru baptism. jackson 1 Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Why didn't they die because of transgression (guilt)? Because the law of God had not been legally established (i.e., posted at Sinai) and where there is no law there is no transgression. It is the law that condemns men to the 2nd death. That tells me that those between Adam & Moses will not be raised to face the curse of the law, i.e., the 2nd death, if they rejected God through indirect revelation (see Rom 1:20). Infants, who die before reaching the age of accountability, cannot comprehend God's Spirit and therefore what Jesus did legally justified them until eternal life. Again, see Romans 5:18 NASB I agree with you, that those who committed only "sins of ignorance" will NOT be raised to face the "curse of the Law" which is the "second death". But I do NOT AGREE that they will go straight into the Kingdom, without ever having chosen the LORD. I do NOT AGREE that "posting the Law at Sinai" constituted awareness of the Law by all people - everywhere. And I do NOT AGREE that God's Law can be known simply by looking at the stars or the known universe. The ancients believed god's other than Yahweh created the universe. Today the schools teach that it simply evolved thru "natural forces". I DO BELIEVE that the Spirit of God was in the world, and was an influence upon men, pushing them towards civil behavior towards other men, and even pushing them towards belief in Christ. But just because the ancients got some things "right" does not mean they understood the existence of God our Father, or their role in caring for the earth and all who live on it. They did NOT realize they were sinning against Yahweh. God's Law is as old as God Himself. It has existed from eternity. It existed LONG BEFORE it was "posted" at Sinai. I think Mrs. White even says that "it came as a surprise to the angels, that there was a law". MY BELIEF is that everyone who has sinned knowingly against Yahweh - who was AWARE of God and His Law, will be raised to face judgment at the Second Coming. Those who are "in Christ" will be given "eternal life", (Dan. 12:2) and those who have knowingly refused the LORD be executed ON THAT DAY. They will NOT be raised to life - ever again. There is NO POINT to resurrecting them to execute them AGAIN! The Second Coming will be judgment day. It will also be the Day of Atonement. (The scapegoat was banished on THAT day.) ONLY Israel (along with the informed mixed multitude) were judged ON THAT DAY - NOT "the nations" who lived in ignorance. In fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy, those who knowingly are in rebellion against God will be "cut off" from the people of God ON THAT DAY, and the scapegoat (Satan) will be thrown into "the pit". "The nations" - those who are in ignorance of Yahweh and His Law - will NOT be judged on THAT day. They will be resurrected 1000 years later, to continue their physical lives, learn of Christ, and then CHOOSE whom they will serve. Those (from this group) who choose rebellion will be destroyed at Gog-Magog. And THAT will be their END. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I see your interpretation Robert, as a from of UNIVERSALISM - everyone saved, until individuals "opt out". I respect your right to believe what you will, and to share your beliefs. I appreciate your explanations, even if I do not always agree with them. They challenge me to deeper study. When you say that I "must see" something, you seem to be saying that I "must see" it as you do. I can't always do that Robert. Sometimes we must agree to disagree. Respectfully, Rachel Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The ‘Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world’ (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. [EGW] The key word here is "IF" - "if heeded". IF heeded - it will guide him to the kingdom. He is NOT ALREADY a citizen of the Kingdom. The influence of the Spirit has been present - always, but those who "heed this light" may not even know the source of this light, or understand any consequence of not heeding it. Their response - whether for or against - is therefore NOT informed. The information will come later - and with it the obligation to CHOOSE. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 THAT is why I believe that "the rest of the dead" will be those who died without the mental maturity or information to CHOOSE. That's supposition.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 I have read Romans 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." (NKJ) Yes - the free gift is available for all, BUT each one must accept the gift - by believing. Romans 5:18 does not say "but"....It says "the FREE gift came to ALL MEN, resulting in justification of life" This gift, through the 2nd Adam, resulted in justification of life. It doesn't say "justification by faith"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 If everything was finished at the cross, then probation should have ENDED on THAT day. God's redemptive work in Christ Jesus is finished. You can't add to it....As I've always said, when you reach the age of accountability you must exercise your faith. You either reject or accept the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 It would seem that only those who have demonstrated their faith thru baptism, are considered Sons of God, and “in Christ”. In his letter Paul is addressing believers. He is not saying that all men are sons of God. The death of Christ is appropriated or applied to each individual when he/she believes and enters into the death of Christ thru baptism. Then Baptism is the Savior, not Christ....Not only this, but the thief on cross is lost according to this view.....Don't buy it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 I do NOT AGREE that "posting the Law at Sinai" constituted awareness of the Law by all people - everywhere. Never said it did.... And I do NOT AGREE that God's Law can be known simply by looking at the stars or the known universe. Didn't imply that either....They knew of God through what was created..... Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 The key word here is "IF" - "if heeded". IF heeded - it will guide him to the kingdom. He is NOT ALREADY a citizen of the Kingdom. "In the depths of heathenism, men"...Infants are not grown men..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 I see your interpretation Robert, as a from of UNIVERSALISM - everyone saved, until individuals "opt out". That's not univseralism. That heresy states all will be saved. I'm stating Christ has justified the human race and therefore we are born under grace. When children reach the age of accountability they must make a choice. Then it becomes justification by faith. If not, those millions of aborted infants are eternally damned in that they will never have eternal life.....Christ's doing & dying meant nothing and Satan wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 That's not univseralism. That heresy states all will be saved. I'm stating Christ has justified the human race and therefore we are born under grace. When children reach the age of accountability they must make a choice. Then it becomes justification by faith. If not, those millions of aborted infants are eternally damned in that they will never have eternal life.....Christ's doing & dying meant nothing and Satan wins. The only command from Moses that concerned a fetus, said that if two men were fighting and they injured a pregnant woman, such that she should loose the child, then the man who started the fight had to pay a fine to the father of the child IF it could be determined that the "child" was a male. If it was female - no fine. I'm not convinced one way or the other, that UNBORN - un-named children will be in the kingdom at all. I'm content to leave that one with God. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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