Are we born justified?

[Robert]

​​Robert, why don't you quit arguing.

​I'd love to, but you aren't giving the complete gospel.

What makes it possible for Christ forgive sin?  What gives Him the legal right to call you perfect in Himself?  The answer is the gospel....

[Robert]

 Reality is that death is inseparable from sin. 

​1 Cor 15:56 "The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law"

Sin brings death, the 1st death, but legally the law has authority (or power) to charge you with guilt.  Guilt brings the 2nd death, which is the curse of the law.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

​

I don't think this is an especially helpful way of looking at the problem.  Let's say for a moment, the law is not an issue.

​No the law is the issue!.  The law cannot legally allow sinners to go to heaven. 

I made an argument, and presented evidence for the argument.  You didn't even consider the argument, and made a claim, with no evidence whatsoever!  

Please consider my argument, and respond to it, taking into account the evidence presented.  What point is there in simply repeating what you believe, with no justification?

That the primary issue is not the law is easy to see.  If there were no law, it would *still* be the case that sinners could not be taken to heaven, because they would be miserable there; it would be torture for them; they would long to flee from that holy place.

 

[Robert]

​I think we can infer on the basis of both logic and inspiration that some infants would be happy in heaven, and others not, and that God will take all the ones who would be happy in heaven to heaven.

​Logic must be biblically grounded or it is worthless.  Inspiration (EGW?) is helpful, but not infallible.  

""The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible." 

Take Ellen White's position on children and matters of salvation. Ellen changed her position.

"The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and He has promised that they shall be in His kingdom. But wicked children God does not love. He will not take them to the beautiful City, for He only admits the good, obedient, and patient children there. One fretful, disobedient child, would spoil all the harmony of heaven. When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you."

"Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong; teach them that He loves them so that it grieves His tender Spirit to see them in transgression, because He knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with His unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them."

So I will stay with my conclusions based on the Bible.  If I am wrong, prove it from the Scriptures.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​

 

I made an argument, and presented evidence for the argument.  You didn't even consider the argument, and made a claim, with no evidence whatsoever!  

Please consider my argument, and respond to it, taking into account the evidence presented.  What point is there in simply repeating what you believe, with no justification?

That the primary issue is not the law is easy to see.  If there were no law, it would *still* be the case that sinners could not be taken to heaven, because they would be miserable there; it would be torture for them; they would long to flee from that holy place.

 

​I can give you plenty of evidence, but first I must address this notion that sinners will be miserable in heaven.  That statement (and you didn't come up with it) is ludicrous. Sinners will not be taken to heaven.  

Take the thief on the cross.  He didn't experience Christian growth (sanctification).  He didn't have time for character development, but yet Christ said "you will be with me in paradise." 

When that man is raised he will be changed.  The old life from Adam stays in the grave.  In its place is "a new creation".  Hence he will be changed.  He will be in perfect harmony with God's agape.  He will be immortal, sinless and his thoughts will be selfless.  So of course sinners will not be taken to heaven because they are changed.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​

 

I made an argument, and presented evidence for the argument.  You didn't even consider the argument, and made a claim, with no evidence whatsoever!  

​

Rom 5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase."

The law was given to make things worse.  Before you were a sinner, but now the law comes along and makes you a transgressor.

What does the law demand?

Gal 3:10..."Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 

What "curse"?

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Gal 3:13

The curse of the law is God abandonment.  It is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection.  That's why Christ cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

So the curse of the law brings the 2nd death.  We must be delivered from under law, not because the law is bad, but because we are sinners failing to meet its demands.  To remain under law means the curse.

 

[Robert]

​I can give you plenty of evidence, but first I must address this notion that sinners will be miserable in heaven.  That statement (and you didn't come up with it) is ludicrous. Sinners will not be taken to heaven.  

Take the thief on the cross.  He didn't experience Christian growth (sanctification).  He didn't have time for character development, but yet Christ said "you will be with me in paradise." 

When that man is raised he will be changed.  The old life from Adam stays in the grave.  In its place is "a new creation".  Hence he will be changed.  He will be in perfect harmony with God's agape.  He will be immortal, sinless and his thoughts will be selfless.  So of course sinners will not be taken to heaven because they are changed.

​1 Cor 15:50

 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" 

56 The sting of death is sin,and the power of sin is the law. 

57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 

 

2 cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; ....

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh (our life from fallen Adam); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer (He was raised immortal and without our bent-to-self). 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ (i.e., if anyone realizes this truth though direct or indirect revelation), he is a new creature (i.e., in Christ); the old things passed away; behold, all things have become new. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Maybe we should review what sin is....?

http://www.jacksequeira.org/dyunit01.htm

[8thdaypriest]

They say that's the reason why Yahushua (well, they say "Jesus") deliberately broke the Sabbath and encouraged his disciples to do likewise.

- joe

 

​NO!  Jesus did NOT break the Sabbath.  Everything he did WAS lawful.  Healing was lawful - on the Sabbath. 

Jesus came as a man, and lived as a man, to fulfilled the Covenant and recover the dominion FOR mankind.  I was speaking of "the Father" who was/is above all, and is not bound by the law he gave for humans.  I am NOT Trinitarian.  I believe in the Father, who beget the Son.  I do not worship the Spirit as a third divine being. 

[pnattmbtc]

​1 Cor 15:56 "The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law"

Sin brings death, the 1st death, but legally the law has authority (or power) to charge you with guilt.  Guilt brings the 2nd death, which is the curse of the law.

​Not the first death, the second.  When it says "the wages of sin is death," that's talking about the second death.

[LifeHiscost]

​NO!  Jesus did NOT break the Sabbath.  Everything he did WAS lawful.  Healing was lawful - on the Sabbath. 

Jesus came as a man, and lived as a man, to fulfilled the Covenant and recover the dominion FOR mankind.  I was speaking of "the Father" who was/is above all, and is not bound by the law he gave for humans.  I am NOT Trinitarian.  I believe in the Father, who beget the Son.  I do not worship the Spirit as a third divine being. 

​

I find great pleasure in reading both the old and the new testament, depending on the promises of the Word to give me peace and understanding. I spend an hour of time concentrating on the various explanations of what the Word really means and end up with this.

5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.…Proverbs 3

…4Make me know Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths. 5Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day. 6Remember, O LORD, Your compassion and Your lovingkindnesses, For they have been from of old.…Psalms 25

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.…John 14

…2I will praise the LORD while I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.…Psalms 146

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

​Logic must be biblically grounded or it is worthless.  Inspiration (EGW?) is helpful, but not infallible.  

""The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible." 

Take Ellen White's position on children and matters of salvation. Ellen changed her position.

"The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and He has promised that they shall be in His kingdom. But wicked children God does not love. He will not take them to the beautiful City, for He only admits the good, obedient, and patient children there. One fretful, disobedient child, would spoil all the harmony of heaven. When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you."

"Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong; teach them that He loves them so that it grieves His tender Spirit to see them in transgression, because He knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with His unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them."

So I will stay with my conclusions based on the Bible.  If I am wrong, prove it from the Scriptures.

 

 

 

 

​

When you say that logic must be biblically grounded, do you mean to say that the assumptions must be Biblical for the argument to work?  Or do you have something else in mind?

Your argument doesn't just apply to infants, but to all children who have not reached the age of accountability, as I understand it.  I understand your argument to be that because all humans were legally justified in Christ, which justification must be retained by faith once a person reaches the age of acocuntability, all humans before the age of accountability will be taken to heaven.  So, by means of example, let's say the age of accountability for a given person is 8.  And let's say this person accepts Christ as his/her personal Savior at age 9.  Your view is that this person would be taken to heaven if (s)he died before the age of 8, or after the age of 9, but not if (s)he died between the ages of 8 and 9.  Is this correct?

Edited May 11, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

​

I find great pleasure in reading both the old and the new testament, depending on the promises of the Word to give me peace and understanding. I spend an hour of time concentrating on the various explanations of what the Word really means and end up with this.

5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.…Proverbs 3

…4Make me know Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths. 5Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day. 6Remember, O LORD, Your compassion and Your lovingkindnesses, For they have been from of old.…Psalms 25

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.…John 14

…2I will praise the LORD while I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.…Psalms 146

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​Very nice.

[pnattmbtc]

​

Rom 5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase."

The law was given to make things worse.  Before you were a sinner, but now the law comes along and makes you a transgressor.

What does the law demand?

Gal 3:10..."Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 

What "curse"?

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Gal 3:13

The curse of the law is God abandonment.  It is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection.  That's why Christ cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

So the curse of the law brings the 2nd death.  We must be delivered from under law, not because the law is bad, but because we are sinners failing to meet its demands.  To remain under law means the curse.

 

​

Thanks for your reponse.  I had two thoughts, one having to do with the law as a "demand" (which I'll treat here), and another dealing with what you called "God abanonment."

Why do you think of Galatians 3:10 as a demand?  Paul is quoting from Deuteronomy.  I see no idea of a demand either in Deuteronomy, or in Paul, or, in general, in how the Jews understood the law.  Rather than a demand, it is recorded as a description.  If you do this, then this is what will happen to you.  If you think of it as a "demand", that implies things could be different if only that demand wasn't there.

For example, consider a red light.  You can think of a red light as "demanding" that you stop.  What happens if you disregard that demand?  If you're unlucky, a cop could give you ticket, or one of the ubiquitous camerias could get a picture of you, and these things could be thought of as a "curse", the "curse of the law".  However, the really bad thing that could happen to you if you run a red light is you could run into another car, or person, or bicycle, etc.  This can also be thought of as the "curse of the law".

Which type of curse is the one described by Gal. 3:10?  Is it like the cop who writes you a ticket, or getting into an accident because of your dangerous behavior?  If you look at Deuteronomy, you can see that it's the latter.

The essence of the law is love.  The law describes righteous acts, which are acts of love.  Blessing follow all who practice acts of love.  To break the law is to live for self.  Curses follow all who follow this "law" (this is being "under the law" or "under law").  The curses follow not because of some imposed penalty having nothing to do with cause and effect, but as a natural consequence of choosing to live apart from God.

[pnattmbtc]

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. RH May 7, 1901, Art. A, par. 9

​

Regarding "God abandonment", God did not abandon Christ, but Christ felt abandoned, which is why He cried out the way that He did.  This is a result of the impact of sin on the mind; it causes us to think things about God which are not true.  You'll notice in Psalm 22, although it starts out with mournful cry, it does not end that way.  Christ overcame His feelings (that He had been abandoned), by faith:

"Then I will proclaim your name to my brethren;
in the assembly I will praise you:

“You who fear the LORD, give praise!
All descendants of Jacob, give honor;
show reverence, all descendants of Israel!

For he has not spurned or disdained
the misery of this poor wretch,
Did not turn away from me,
but heard me when I cried out."

[pnattmbtc]

​Logic must be biblically grounded or it is worthless.  Inspiration (EGW?) is helpful, but not infallible.  

""The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible." 

Take Ellen White's position on children and matters of salvation. Ellen changed her position.

"The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and He has promised that they shall be in His kingdom. But wicked children God does not love. He will not take them to the beautiful City, for He only admits the good, obedient, and patient children there. One fretful, disobedient child, would spoil all the harmony of heaven. When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you."

"Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong; teach them that He loves them so that it grieves His tender Spirit to see them in transgression, because He knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with His unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them."

So I will stay with my conclusions based on the Bible.  If I am wrong, prove it from the Scriptures.

 

 

 

 

​You take issue when I quote from the Spirit of Prophecy, but in your posts you post links to Sequeira.  This seems rather inconsistent.  I don't mind your posting links to Sequeira, but if you're going to do that, then other posters should be able to use similar means, shouldn't they?

[joeb]

They say that's the reason why Yahushua (well, they say "Jesus") deliberately broke the Sabbath and encouraged his disciples to do likewise.

- joe

 

​I have to disagree with both of you, genesis7 and eightdaypriest on this.  Jesus did not break the Sabbath.  He was accused of breaking a man-made rule that made the Sabbath a burden on the people.  And, He was accused by men who taught that they were to be believed even if one of them said the sky is green and another one of them said the sky is not green.  Both statements were to be taken as the voice of God and both statements had to be accepted as true.  These accusers of Christ were also murderers.  They were planning the murder of Christ at the time they accused Him of breaking the Sabbath.  They even broke their own manmade laws and taught the people to break the laws given by God through Moses.  Their hypocrisy was tremendous, and to take their accusation as being truth is an insult to Christ.

 

 

[joeb]

Doesn't Scripture say that Levi was "in Abraham" when he paid tithes to the King of Salem, and that because Levi was "in Abraham", Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek?

​I have looked at Hebrews 7:9 and to me, and all the Bible translations i've read, this is a figure of speech.  Paul is saying, well, it could be said that....  He isn't stating as a positive truth that Levi in truth payed tithes to Melchezidek.   Paul develops his arguments slowly and in depth and here uses a figure of speech to make his point about the "better" recieving from the "lesser".

Hebrews 7:9  One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,  10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.   ESV

Hebrews 7:10  9 And it could be said that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid a tithe through Abraham.  NETfree

That's just two translations but I can give many more, and the idea that Paul is stating a positive truth here must be read into the KJV if you take a look at Strongs.

[Samie]

Does anyone here have ANOTHER scenario to solve the "problem" of young children, and those lacking mental capacity or information upon which to base belief. 

​The prophet Isaiah has already shown us the scenario you are looking for - the scenario of young children in the holy mountain of God in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9). This indirectly tells us that we - descendants of Adam & Eve - were born with our names in the book of life, because those whose names are not found written in the book of life will all be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

[Samie]

​The prophet Isaiah has already shown us the scenario you are looking for - the scenario of young children in the holy mountain of God in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9). This indirectly tells us that we - descendants of Adam & Eve - were born with our names in the book of life, because those whose names are not found written in the book of life will all be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

​Unless blotted out at death for persistently not overcoming evil with good while alive, our names stays written in the book of life, having been written there even before we were born by virtue of God's grace given us in Christ Jesus before time began.

[Robert]

​

Regarding "God abandonment", God did not abandon Christ, but Christ felt abandoned, which is why He cried out the way that He did.

​Really?  

Luke 22:41 And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 

42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." 

 

What is this cup?  Is it not God abandonment, the 2nd death?

 

 

53 "While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me (why?  Because God was with Christ); but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

 

John 19:10

 So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" 11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above....

 

 

Clearly God "handed over" Christ to the surrounding destructive forces.  That's abandonment.  Christ tasted the 2nd death for all men because the hope of the resurrection (God the Father) abandoned Christ. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​

When you say that logic must be biblically grounded, do you mean to say that the assumptions must be Biblical for the argument to work?  Or do you have something else in mind?

Your argument doesn't just apply to infants, but to all children who have not reached the age of accountability, as I understand it.  I understand your argument to be that because all humans were legally justified in Christ, which justification must be retained by faith once a person reaches the age of acocuntability, all humans before the age of accountability will be taken to heaven.  So, by means of example, let's say the age of accountability for a given person is 8.  And let's say this person accepts Christ as his/her personal Savior at age 9.  Your view is that this person would be taken to heaven if (s)he died before the age of 8, or after the age of 9, but not if (s)he died between the ages of 8 and 9.  Is this correct?

​Yes....

[LifeHiscost]

​I'd love to, but you aren't giving the complete gospel.

What makes it possible for Christ forgive sin?  What gives Him the legal right to call you perfect in Himself?  The answer is the gospel....

​And the gospel from John as given to him to be the forerunner of Jesus was;

3And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins; 4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.…Luke 3

Jesus made Himself subject to the same gospel;

9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan....Mark1

And then Jesus said through His servant ;

By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked....1 John 2

What other gospel are you teaching, Robert?

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

​The essence of the law is love.  The law describes righteous acts, which are acts of love.  Blessing follow all who practice acts of love.  To break the law is to live for self.  Curses follow all who follow this "law" (this is being "under the law" or "under law").  The curses follow not because of some imposed penalty having nothing to do with cause and effect, but as a natural consequence of choosing to live apart from God.

​That word "love" is agape.  Agape is not self-seeking...so you tell me, are you keeping this law?  If not, then God must abandon you to the 2nd death.  Just that simple. 

Or you can accept the gospel where you were legally saved from under law to under grace.  But again, no one has explained to me how that was legally accomplished.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​And the gospel from John as given to him to be the forerunner of Jesus was;

3And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins; 4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.…Luke 3

Jesus made Himself subject to the same gospel;

9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan....Mark1

And then Jesus said through His servant ;

By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked....1 John 2

What other gospel are you teaching, Robert?

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​That doesn't tell me one thing on how God saved you in Christ.  You must turn to Paul for help....