joeb Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Hi joeb. I agree with the points you are making in the first paragraph. I think it's common for young people especially to be very convinced that they are right in their views; often as people age they become aware of the possibility of being wrong about things they were absolutely convinced they were right about. I know this has happened to me many times. Being open to the possibility of being wrong and willing to change one's opinion upon evidence is a great asset, and I agree that undertaking Bible study (or any pursuit of truth) without an attitude of wanting to learn is not worthwhile. Regarding the beliefs of others, I think we should be as charitable as we can be. There are things in the "in Christ" motif which are of value, which isn't surprising, because the roots come from Jones and Waggoner. I take issue with some of the interpretations and emphases I see (which differ from what I see when reading Waggoner), but I don't want to through the baby out with the bath water. The problem is that when we mix error with truth the truth becomes a lie for there are no half-truths. Half-truths are lies for they deceive. I agree that there is some truth to what Robert and Samie say, but the errors mixed with the truth make the entire thing specious. Ellen White says that truth and error start out very close to one another and only as we follow error out to its logical end do we see how far away from truth it really is. I've found this to be very, very true. So, just because something sounds good, and has some truth to it doesn't make it OK or not something to be opposed, because when we follow the error to its conclusion we see how wrong it is. By then, the time error becomes readily apparent, many people will have been led astray and come to believe lies about God. As God is the only real friend I've ever had I take real exception to anyone spreading lies about Him. phkrause and jackson 2 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 The problem is that when we mix error with truth the truth becomes a lie for there are no half-truths. Half-truths are lies for they deceive. I agree that there is some truth to what Robert and Samie say, but the errors mixed with the truth make the entire thing specious. Ellen White says that truth and error start out very close to one another and only as we follow error out to its logical end do we see how far away from truth it really is. I've found this to be very, very true. So, just because something sounds good, and has some truth to it doesn't make it OK or not something to be opposed, because when we follow the error to its conclusion we see how wrong it is. By then, the time error becomes readily apparent, many people will have been led astray and come to believe lies about God. As God is the only real friend I've ever had I take real exception to anyone spreading lies about Him. But haven't you made mistakes? Could you have mistakes in your thinking now? Does that mean you are speaking lies about God? When we say we take real exception to anyone speaking lies about God, that implies we are in a position to do so, that we are fit to be an arbiter on such things. I'm all in favor for speaking up in favor for God, but think we should be as charitable as we can be in doing so. Regarding Robert and Samie's ideas (which actually have some important differences), what do you find objectionable in terms of something which could be construed as speaking lies about God? Speaking for myself, I agree with the corporate emphasis, as I believe corporate solidarity is an important emphasis in Scripture which we as Westerners miss, but I'm missing anything from either of them which deals with being born again. Also, the idea that Jesus did not preach the Gospel is odd, to comment in an understated way. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 To whom are you addressing this post? Jackson and anyone else who would like to discuss just WHO "the rest of the dead" are - from Scripture. I started another thread. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 By the individual RESPONSE to the spirit of God in Christ, the person believes. He is - at that moment - regarded by God the Father as having DIED on that cross with His Son. The person then is to "confess with your mouth that God has raised Him from the dead". He does THAT by being baptized - a symbol of his belief that he has indeed DIED, and will live again - just as God's own Son was raised. Paul wrote to convince the believers, that persons who have DIED to their old lives, should ACT like those old lives are DEAD. How many, after baptism, open the coffin of their old man to slip him a snack? The point is that God will "save" those who continually seek to overcome. If Christlike perfection of character is necessary for one to be "saved" then I think Heaven will be mostly empty. The closer we come to Christ, the more clearly we "see" our own imperfections. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) When your old self dies you are "born anew" so to speak; but born as a baby in Christ not a mature adult, Are you of so little faith that you think God's grace is insufficient to have you grow in stature and grace with men and God and eventually have the mind of Christ in this life? "Christ in you the hope of glory" is provided for at the cross but initiated at conversion when you consent by unconditional surrender. 1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 2 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Robert, do you believe these scriptural promises or not? Are you living Christ's life? If you say "yes" I have a test just for you to compare your life to His.... We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {CC 292.4} Edited May 29, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 Also, the idea that Jesus did not preach the Gospel is odd, to comment in an understated way. Jesus is the gospel....Paul was chosen by God the Father and Christ to expound and explain the mechanics of the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Again & again I had posted that Scriptures CLEARLY say that those whose names are NOT found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). The fact that there are babies in the new earth tells us their names are in the book of life, otherwise they would have been cast into the lake of fire. Seems to have still remained unaddressed, unanswered and unresponded to with valid Biblical basis by objectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Regarding Robert and Samie's ideas (which actually have some important differences), what do you find objectionable in terms of something which could be construed as speaking lies about God? Speaking for myself, I agree with the corporate emphasis, as I believe corporate solidarity is an important emphasis in Scripture which we as Westerners miss, but I'm missing anything from either of them which deals with being born again. Also, the idea that Jesus did not preach the Gospel is odd, to comment in an understated way. In many instances, I had repeatedly pointed out that our being born-again is God's work FOR man, which He accomplished for us when Jesus resurrected: NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead Scriptures bear record that Jesus preached the gospel: Mark 1:14-15 14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Repentance - turning away from sin - is the essence of overcoming. It MUST be part of the end-time message: Luke 24:46-47 46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Remission - or forgiveness - of sins found fulfillment at the cross: NAS Colossians 2:13-14 13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 But the question should be asked, "Why is perfecting Christian character so rare if one is sincerely seeking to overcome?" Why are God's promises rarely seen in this world? Has God overomised or have we underachieved? 2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. I think Jackson, that we have misunderstood the timing of the promise. The promise was/is: Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." (NKJ) If you look at the context of this promise, it is fulfilled AFTER Israel is returned to the land. Ezekiel 36:24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land." (NKJ) This promise is just as real as the promise to fill us with His spirit, so that we will "walk in" His statutes. The prophetic books, from Isaiah to Malachi, include so many passages repeating the promise of healing, restoration, and of “return to the land” for Israel, that I cannot give the full text of each passage here. This is a major theme in the prophetic books. A detailed event by event description is NOT the purpose of these prophecies. They give us a sweeping overview with the promise of restoration to a perfect relationship with the LORD, and eventual victory over all enemies. We who believe, grow slowly towards perfection of character. It is a process. After a lifetime of growing in the LORD, we may only have just begun. Paul said, "I go on to perfection." And sooooo many folks die after only a few years of "growth". We are mostly children. Paul called the Corinthian believers "babes in Christ". I think we have no idea how damaged we really are. We think and live defensively. We expect that others will cheat us, or hurt us - because they have, and they do. A thousand years of rehabilitation in the "Father's House" will surely heal much of our PTSD. Those who push and push and push themselves now, trying to achieve perfection of character, just become exhausted or depressed. Some give up. (I almost did.) Those with a strong "will" try harder. But perfection of character is NOT something we achieve. It is a gift of healing by our Master. We must rest in His love, believing that He will return us to "the land promised", and there He will perfect our hearts. The process will not be complete until we are "home". Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) 2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. We are off the subject..... Born justified applies to us at birth....We can lose our justification when we mature if we do not accept our justification in Christ by faith. The fact is infants cannot grasp spiritual things...neither can mentally handicapped individuals and therefore I believe they will all be in heaven if they die before spiritually enlightened. Are reptiles & animals enlightened? No, yet we find them in heaven: Is 11:6 The wolf will live with the lamb (instead of killing and eating the lamb), the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest. 9 They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Why won't these creatures kill? They have had their natures changed and now they are in heaven. Yes, I know the Bible doesn't speak of these creatures being resurrected because the Bible is primarily about the salvation of mankind. Yet we read that what Christ did was for "the whole creation": Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. ...19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven (the sky), having made peace through the blood of His cross. What Christ did was much more than reverse mankind's situation. Christ has reconciled "all things" through His cross whether on the earth or in the sky. Edited May 30, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 Here's something I found: Animals came under the curse when man sinned, but will be freed from the curse through Christ.(Romans 8:20-22; Colossians 1:20 and Acts 3:20) The harmonious relationship between man and animals will be restored in the millennial kingdom. (Isaiah 11:6-9) God keeps record of every animal that has ever lived. (Luke 12:6) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) Here's something I found: Animals came under the curse when man sinned, but will be freed from the curse through Christ.(Romans 8:20-22; Colossians 1:20 and Acts 3:20) The harmonious relationship between man and animals will be restored in the millennial kingdom. (Isaiah 11:6-9) God keeps record of every animal that has ever lived. (Luke 12:6) Romans 8:20 "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it (Adam), in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom for the children of God. Acts 1:21 (not 20) He (Jesus) must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies ? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Edited May 30, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 But haven't you made mistakes? Could you have mistakes in your thinking now? Does that mean you are speaking lies about God? When we say we take real exception to anyone speaking lies about God, that implies we are in a position to do so, that we are fit to be an arbiter on such things. I'm all in favor for speaking up in favor for God, but think we should be as charitable as we can be in doing so. Regarding Robert and Samie's ideas (which actually have some important differences), what do you find objectionable in terms of something which could be construed as speaking lies about God? Speaking for myself, I agree with the corporate emphasis, as I believe corporate solidarity is an important emphasis in Scripture which we as Westerners miss, but I'm missing anything from either of them which deals with being born again. Also, the idea that Jesus did not preach the Gospel is odd, to comment in an understated way. It is one thing to have mistakes in our thinking. We all have them for we are human. It's another thing to hang on to them in the face of a lot of evidence to the contrary, and when given that evidence just keep on repeating the same error over and over again. It's one thing to quote Ellen White as an inspired authority but another altogether to ignore her when given evidence that she does not support the position you have taken, and never modify your position so that it can take in everything she says on the subject. The same with the Bible. When we speak errors about God there is only one source for those errors, the original liar about God. He is the one who comes up with all these errors that corrupt our view of God's character. While humans may seem to come up with original errors they don't, not really. They are just rehashed errors the devil has already published. He's much more intelligent than we are, and he's done nothing but study how he can distort our view of God's character for at least 6,000 years so he's light years ahead of us in creating distortions about who God is. He has already thought up the lies about God that we think are original ideas. The Bible explicitly tells us this for it tells us that there is nothing new under the sun. All that said I don't think I'm superior to either Samie or Robert. I'm a sinner just like they are. I'm sure I hold some errors in how I view God too. However, when I'm shown them I will surrender them. My ideas will always be subordinate to the expressed word of God. phkrause 1 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) When Jesus says "go and sin no more", was he asking the impossible? 1] Always be very careful with the context. The woman, caught in adultery, was first told by Christ that He did not condemn her. That's why Paul tells the struggling sinner of Romans 7, who was failing miserably, that there's no condemnation to those have placed their faith in Christ Jesus. 2] The "go and sin no more" was about a specific sin, adultery. Jesus wasn't demanding perfection. He was telling her to leave her life of adultery (most likely prostitution). 3] I didn't experience growth (being more like Christ) until I learned to rest in Christ's finished work. I am complete in Christ and nothing else. As that truth sinks in then I am free to grow. Otherwise, if we are depending on that growth for salvation we will never experience sanctification. Hence the prerequisite to experiencing righteousness is accepting that "in Christ Jesus" you are positively perfect and accepted now and in the judgment. Otherwise you'll fail.... Edited May 31, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) When Jesus says "go and sin no more", was he asking the impossible? But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin (adultery), let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin (i.e., adultery)." Edited May 31, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him”. Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. Edited May 31, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 8thdaypries:The point is that God will "save" those who continually seek to overcome. If Christlike perfection of character is necessary for one to be "saved" then I think Heaven will be mostly empty. The closer we come to Christ, the more clearly we "see" our own imperfections. I don't think "seek to overcome" is enough. Scripture seems to be clear that salvation comes to those who really do overcome, not just seek to overcome. However, this doesn't mean there isn't room for failure. The Spirit of Prophecy speaks as to how it's not the occasional good deed or bad deed that defines the character, but the trend of the life, and we see faults in such "greats" as Moses and Elijah, to name two. I agree completely with your comment regarding the closer we come to Christ, the more clearly we will see our imperfections. For example, who could look at Christ on the cross, and think "I love others as well as Christ"? To look at Christ is to be ashamed of ourselves. I don't think our looking at ourselves should or would include only our present performance. For example, consider Peter, who willingly gave his life for Christ. How could he ever forget his denial of Christ? Would he ever, after that, so much as even dream of boasting of his own goodness? I doubt it. I think that act (including Jesus' forgiving him) cured that. Who of us hasn't denied Christ? To be aware of ourselves is not to just think of our present performance, but the whole of our lives. If we keep fresh in mind how Christ has saved us (if we're converted, we'll be able to remember some "Peter" moment), we won't feel like boasting of our own goodness. One other point that comes to mind would be, it's not simply seeking to overcome, but not resisting that's sufficient. That is, if we do not resist, we will be led to the cross in repentance. As surely as God is good, so surely is He leading us to repentance. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Jesus is the gospel....Paul was chosen by God the Father and Christ to expound and explain the mechanics of the gospel. Amen to the statement that Jesus is the Gospel, but why would you think that only Paul was chosen to explain the Gospel? Where in Scripture do you read this??? Personally where I see the Gospel explained most clearly is 1.The Gospel of John 2.Romans 3.Galatians. I know of no reason to limit it to Paul. It's completely incomprehensible to me to imagine Paul thinking that he explained the Gospel better than Jesus did. I can't think of anything that would make him turn in his grave quicker than that. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Again & again I had posted that Scriptures CLEARLY say that those whose names are NOT found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). The fact that there are babies in the new earth tells us their names are in the book of life, otherwise they would have been cast into the lake of fire. Seems to have still remained unaddressed, unanswered and unresponded to with valid Biblical basis by objectors. This has been addressed many, many times. I've personally addressed it at least half a dozen times, and others have addressed it too. I've pointed out two problems. One is, your logic is faulty; there is no verse in Scripture which says that the name of every person is written in the book of life. The verses you most refer to, in Revelation, speak of those whose name are NOT written in the book of life. Even if we accepted your premise regarding babies (I don't know where you get the idea that babies will be cast into the lake of fire; that doesn't speak well of God's character, does it?), the fact that there are some babies who have their names written in the book of life, does not imply that *every* baby has its name written in the book of life. I've also repeatedly pointed out that there is a practical problem with your idea, and that is that if every person goes to heaven if they die before the age of accountability, then: 1.It makes no difference how any child is raised, regarding their salvation, provided they die soon enough. 2.The best thing we, or God, could do for such would be to kill them, to ensure their going to heaven. It seems odd to me that you (and Robert) wouldn't immediately recognize the problem being raised here in points 1 and 2. This seems obviously problematic. How would points 1 and 2 speak well of God's character? (or even make sense) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 jackson:But the question should be asked, "Why is perfecting Christian character so rare if one is sincerely seeking to overcome?" Why are God's promises rarely seen in this world? Has God overomised or have we underachieved? This is a great question. To my mind, it is because God's character is misunderstood. Our picture of God determines how we think, which determines the decisions we make, which determines our character. If we get the character of God wrong, how can we get the rest right? The Spirit of Prophecy tells us the "whole purpose of Christ's mission" was "the revelation of the Father" in order to set and keep men right. I don't think God's character has been given the importance it deserves. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Samie:In many instances, I had repeatedly pointed out that our being born-again is God's work FOR man, which He accomplished for us when Jesus resurrected: This isn't possible. Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be born again." To be born again, means to be converted. Jesus was telling Nicodemus, he had to be converted. Do you believe it's possible to go to heaven without being converted? (let's limit this question to people over the age of accountability). Assuming you answer "yes", that people need to be converted, how to you think that works? (i.e., how is a person converted). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 jackson:It is one thing to have mistakes in our thinking. We all have them for we are human. It's another thing to hang on to them in the face of a lot of evidence to the contrary, and when given that evidence just keep on repeating the same error over and over again. It's one thing to quote Ellen White as an inspired authority but another altogether to ignore her when given evidence that she does not support the position you have taken, and never modify your position so that it can take in everything she says on the subject. The same with the Bible. When we speak errors about God there is only one source for those errors, the original liar about God. He is the one who comes up with all these errors that corrupt our view of God's character. While humans may seem to come up with original errors they don't, not really. They are just rehashed errors the devil has already published. He's much more intelligent than we are, and he's done nothing but study how he can distort our view of God's character for at least 6,000 years so he's light years ahead of us in creating distortions about who God is. He has already thought up the lies about God that we think are original ideas. The Bible explicitly tells us this for it tells us that there is nothing new under the sun. All that said I don't think I'm superior to either Samie or Robert. I'm a sinner just like they are. I'm sure I hold some errors in how I view God too. However, when I'm shown them I will surrender them. My ideas will always be subordinate to the expressed word of God. I'm happy to see the last paragraph, but I have some doubts as to how true the third sentence is. I'm not making indictments of you, just knowing human beings, including myself, it's not so easy to change one views just because one is shown truth. To change a view often takes a long time. In part this is true because things are interconnected, so if you change your view on something which, for example, involves God's character, that involves rethinking how you think of everything having to do with God, which is a whole lot of things to rethink. It can't possibly happen quickly. Also what does it mean to be given evidence which does not support your position? How about if we have errors in how we have presented our position? How about if we didn't present it a completely Christ-like way? How about if we have done everything perfectly, but the person to whom we are speaking is simply unable to respond at the point to what we are saying? When I read Samie's and Robert's responses, I don't get the impression that they have been convinced they are wrong, or that the evidence presented to them is convincing. As long as they haven't been convinced they are wrong, how can we judge them? I don't think that's our job. I think our job is to make better, clearer arguments that *they* find convincing. It's not enough for us to present something from the Spirit of Prophecy or Scripture that *we* find convincing; it has to be convincing to them. Another impediment is not understanding what they are saying. I'm not speaking to you in particular here, but am making the point that if we cannot present the position of the person with whom we are conversing in a way in which they would agree, "Yes, that's my position," then it seems doubtful to me that we could hope to convince them of their error. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Robert, do you believe these scriptural promises or not? Robert:Are you living Christ's life? If you say "yes" I have a test just for you to compare your life to His... You've answered this type of question in this way quite a few times, which seems odd. First of all, it's not a clear answer to the question. It looks like an evasion. And it's a very odd response, because you were quoted several texts, and asked a yes or no question, as to whether or not you believed the texts. I can't imagine why you, or any other Christian who believes the Bible, wouldn't answer "Yes!". You could answer, "Yes, of course I believe these promises, but I'm not reaching the same conclusions as you are about them because of x, y, z". But when you refuse to answer the question, it appears as if your thinking is "No, I don't believe these promises, because I don't believe anyone can do the things these verses are saying, and to prove this, let me ask you the question, are you doing these things?" As if the failure of some specific person to do something would prove anything. Obviously it wouldn't. If I make the assertion, "If you quit smoking, you'll lessen your chances of having Cancer," clearly the response, "Have you quit smoking?" is irrelevant to that assertion. Your non-answer is similarly irrelevant. Who cares what jackson is doing? What I'd like to know is your answer to his question, if you believe the promises or not. I can't imagine that you don't, but if you refuse to answer, that leaves it open for doubt. Edited June 1, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 So this woman was only commanded not to commit adultery anymore , but continuance of other sins would bring no condemnation if she placed her faith in Christ???? How about the paralytic? Was Jesus asking the impossible from him? John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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