Robert Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: Regarding the fate of newborns, what makes sense to me is that some will be saved, and some will "be as though they had not been", meaning they won't be resurrected. I believe God will take everyone to heaven who will be happy there. Then I must clarify: Yes to those who know of the spirituality of God's law; know they are sinners and know they need Christ's righteousness. You see the Pharisee claimed to know the law and keep it. They claimed to keep because they didn't realize the spirit of the law. They viewed the law as external requirements. Ellen White: Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem (pride in his law keeping) was gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Robert said: Then I must clarify: Yes to those who know of the spirituality of God's law; know they are sinners and know they need Christ's righteousness. You see the Pharisee claimed to know the law and keep it. They claimed to keep because they didn't realize the spirit of the law. They viewed the law as external requirements. Ellen White: Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem (pride in his law keeping) was gone. The issue is that Nicodemus was not converted. Every unconverted person needs to be converted, regardless of what they know about the law. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Just now, pnattmbtc said: The issue is that Nicodemus was not converted. He wasn't converted because he thought he was holy. He didn't understand the spirit of God's law. Are we on the same subject? Maybe I'm missing something.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 10 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: The issue is that Nicodemus was not converted. Every unconverted person needs to be converted, regardless of what they know about the law. You can't convert infants(they can't reason)...you can't convert those who, at no fault of their own, are mentally challenged (they can't reason). There are some that can't exercise faith. I believe Christ's justification of the human race covers these. Yes, for those who can reason, they need to see their need of Christ. We get this especially from knowing the spirituality of God's law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Me:She asks the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?" The answer to this question can only be an explanation of justification by faith, because justification is the only means of salvation. You agree with this, correct? Robert:Yes and no.... Yes to those who know of the law; know they are sinners and know they need Christ's righteousness. No to those who do not know of God's law and therefore do not understand they are sinners. My responses were targeted to the above. My point has been that any unconverted person, regardless of whether or not they know of the law, needs Christ (i.e., needs to receive Christ as their personal Savior, in order to be converted, which is justification by faith). What causes the need for Christ is not being converted. Ignorance of the law does not mitigate the need of being converted. Quote Robert: He wasn't converted because he thought he was holy. He didn't understand the spirit of God's law. Are we on the same subject? Maybe I'm missing something... Nicodemus that he was holy because he wasn't converted. He didn't understand the spirit of God's law because he wasn't converted. No unconverted person understands the spirit of God's law. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Robert: You can't convert infants(they can't reason)...you can't convert those who, at no fault of their own, are mentally challenged (they can't reason). There are some that can't exercise faith. I believe Christ's justification of the human race covers these. Yes, for those who can reason, they need to see their need of Christ. We get this especially from knowing the spirituality of God's law. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Robert: You can't convert infants(they can't reason)...you can't convert those who, at no fault of their own, are mentally challenged (they can't reason). There are some that can't exercise faith. I believe Christ's justification of the human race covers these. Yes, for those who can reason, they need to see their need of Christ. We get this especially from knowing the spirituality of God's law. Sorry for the double post, but seemed like the easiest way of dealing with software issues. Regarding infants, I don't recall the points I raised previously were addressed, in short, there is an issue of fitness (would the infant of parents who hate God, drug addicts, etc. be happy in heaven?) there are logical problems, such as, if what you were asserting were true, the logical conclusion would be that it would be in the interest of all infants who would not accept Christ later in life to die before they are old enough to do so. Regarding those who can reason, no unconverted person knows the spirituality of God's law. One needs to be converted first; then one can see the spirituality of the law. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: ...in short, there is an issue of fitness (would the infant of parents who hate God, drug addicts, etc. be happy in heaven?).... That sounds legalistic. The gospel is not about what Christ does in us as individuals, but what Christ did in our corporate humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: One needs to be converted first; then one can see the spirituality of the law. Saul wasn't converted until he understood the spirituality of the law. Saul's problem was he didn't need Christ because in his own eyes he was blameless before God's law. Phil 2:4 If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 5 minutes ago, Robert said: That sounds legalistic. The gospel is not about what Christ does in us as individuals, but what Christ did in our corporate humanity. .To make it easier to follow, the above is in response to my having written the following: "..in short, there is an issue of fitness (would the infant of parents who hate God, drug addicts, etc. be happy in heaven?)...." Legalism involves one trying to gain the favor of God by one's own efforts. I brought out that your idea that everyone will be taken to heaven who cannot reason has problems, such as not considering whether one would be in happy in heaven. What connection do you see between being happy in heaven and legalism? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Robert: The gospel is not about what Christ does in us as individuals, but what Christ did in our corporate humanity. I think this is wrong twice. Paul says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. How would Paul's statement fit in with either suggestion here? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 To consider the issue in a general way, to understand that solution to the problem, one needs to understand the nature of the problem. I think this is easy to present from the Spirit of Prophecy, so I will do so: Quote (Satan) sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God’s character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be. (ST 1/20/90) The problem is that man has been estranged from God by the misrepresentations of God's character by the enemy. This is how sin originated in the first place! The solution to the problem must have to do with the root cause, which was the misrepresentation of God's character. The Gospel is that the Father is altogether different than how He has been misrepresented by the enemy. By believing in Christ, man can be reconciled to God. This is the theme of the entirety of John's Gospel, as plain as can be. Many texts can be cited from John to show this. Now there is only one Gospel, as Paul himself states, so the Gospel of Paul must be the same as the Gospel of John, and it is! Paul brings the same good news that John does, which is that through faith in Christ man can be reconciled to God. This is justification by faith. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 8 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: What connection do you see between being happy in heaven and legalism? I don't buy your "happy in heaven" motif. I believe you borrowed that phrase from Ellen White? First of all "flesh & blood" cannot enter into heaven. Why? Here I agree - if you took "flesh & blood" to heaven it would be out of harmony with God's agape love because "flesh & blood" only knows self-love. What you need to remember is that "we shall be changed". Our "new creation" in Christ Jesus is perfectly in harmony with God's agape love, so I don't see any problem with infants, who died before they could chose, being given their "new creation" and taken to heaven based on Christ's justification of them in His doing & dying. They will be very, very happy there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 8 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: I think this is wrong twice. Paul says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. How would Paul's statement fit in with either suggestion here? Rom 1:6 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Again, infants can't exercise faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: . This is justification by faith. Justification by faith is your acceptance, by faith, that we stand justified "in Christ Jesus" before God and His holy law. Faith is a cognitive response to the gospel. Need I say anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 BTW, here's a fairly recent email between myself and Pastor Sequeira on this issue: Quote From: (private email)To: jacksministries@comcast.netSent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 6:04:23 PMSubject: infants & salvation Pastor Jack, What's your Biblical view on all infants who die before the age of accountability - are they safe "in Christ"? My position is "yes". I use two main verses, although there's more to support my position: Romans 4:15 & Romans 5:18. Thanks, From: jacksministries@comcast.net To: ************** Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2015 8:14:58 AM Subject: Fwd: infants & salvation******* I agree with you. However, within Christianity there are four views: 1. Since babies are born without sin they will be saved. 2. Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism. 3. Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability, that will decide their eternal destiny. 4. The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents. Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Me: What connection do you see between being happy in heaven and legalism? Robert: I don't buy your "happy in heaven" motif. Why not? What I'm asseting is that God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there, and no one who wouldn't be happy. Do you disagree with this? Quote I believe you borrowed that phrase from Ellen White? No, it's my own idea, but it was by reading what she wrote in "The First Great Deception" of "The Great Controversy" that made me think of it. Quote First of all "flesh & blood" cannot enter into heaven. Why? Here I agree - if you took "flesh & blood" to heaven it would be out of harmony with God's agape love because "flesh & blood" only knows self-love. Flesh and blood is dealing with our DNA. Of course that needs to be changed, as it is fallen. Quote What you need to remember is that "we shall be changed". Not our character. Quote The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. 13MR 82 Our flesh is changed, but not our character. Quote Our "new creation" in Christ Jesus is perfectly in harmony with God's agape love, so I don't see any problem with infants, who died before they could chose, being given their "new creation" and taken to heaven based on Christ's justification of them in His doing & dying. They will be very, very happy there. Our character is composed of our thoughts and emotions. These are not arbitrarily changed by God. How would you even think this works? This would destroy free will. Everything in inspiration, and in our own experience, teaches us that God does not do this. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Me: What connection do you see between being happy in heaven and legalism? Robert: I don't buy your "happy in heaven" motif. Why not? What I'm asseting is that God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there, and no one who wouldn't be happy. Do you disagree with this? Quote I believe you borrowed that phrase from Ellen White? No, it's my own idea, but it was by reading what she wrote in "The First Great Deception" of "The Great Controversy" that made me think of it. Quote First of all "flesh & blood" cannot enter into heaven. Why? Here I agree - if you took "flesh & blood" to heaven it would be out of harmony with God's agape love because "flesh & blood" only knows self-love. Flesh and blood is dealing with our DNA. Of course that needs to be changed, as it is fallen. Quote What you need to remember is that "we shall be changed". Not our character. Quote The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. 13MR 82 Our flesh is changed, but not our character. Quote Our "new creation" in Christ Jesus is perfectly in harmony with God's agape love, so I don't see any problem with infants, who died before they could chose, being given their "new creation" and taken to heaven based on Christ's justification of them in His doing & dying. They will be very, very happy there. Our character is composed of our thoughts and emotions. These are not arbitrarily changed by God. How would you even think this works? This would destroy free will. Everything in inspiration, and in our own experience, teaches us that God does not do this. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Robert: The gospel is not about what Christ does in us as individuals, but what Christ did in our corporate humanity. Me: I think this is wrong twice. Paul says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. How would Paul's statement fit in with either suggestion here? Robert: Rom 1:6 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Again, infants can't exercise faith. Please include the context of your comments. I added it above, so we know what we are talking about. You said two things: 1.The Gospel is not about what Christ does in us as individuals. 2.The Gospel is about what Christ did in our corporate humanity. I think both of these statements are incomplete, and not the primary focus. The Gospel concerns Jesus Christ, not only, or primarily, in regards to solving a legal problem, but as a revelation of God. By means of this revelation, God wins the Great Controversy. That's the big picture. Within this big picture, God has provided a means of salvation for human being, if they choose to be born again, which they will, if they do not resit the light shining from the cross. Quote This is justification by faith. Justification by faith is being born again, or converted, which happens as described by Jesus Christ in John 3:14-16. Quote Justification by faith is your acceptance, by faith, that we stand justified "in Christ Jesus" before God and His holy law. Faith is a cognitive response to the gospel. Need I say anymore? That faith is a cognitive response to the gospel is fine, but that brings us back to the question of what the gospel is. In reading John 3:14-16, I don't see your idea. I do see mine. Jesus said something specific to Nicodemus about what was necessary for Nicodemus to enter the kingdom of heaven. I see nothing in what Jesus said to Nicodemus which corresponds to your idea. Do you? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Quote Pastor Jack, What's your Biblical view on all infants who die before the age of accountability - are they safe "in Christ"? My position is "yes". I use two main verses, although there's more to support my position: Romans 4:15 & Romans 5:18. Thanks, From: jacksministries@comcast.net To: ************** Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2015 8:14:58 AM Subject: Fwd: infants & salvation******* I agree with you. However, within Christianity there are four views: 1. Since babies are born without sin they will be saved. 2. Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism. 3. Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability, that will decide their eternal destiny. 4. The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents. This was an interesting response. It's interesting that he presents the idea that there are 4 views in Christianity, and then doesn't mention the view that he himself holds (unless he holds the first one, which I don't think is accurate. I think what he believes is that infants are saved because of Christ's "doing and dying", satisfying the law). Also the last option, the fourth one, needs to be clarified. It's not that God looks at what the parents have chosen, and then decides, on the basis of that, to credit salvation to their children, which someone could misconstrue. Well, it actually gets back to one's paradigm, as to what the underlying issue is. If the underlying issue is forensic, then it would make sense that all infants would be saved, but that leads to certain logical problems, not the least of which is, if this were really true, then events such as the slaughter of infants of Herod, should be events of great rejoicing. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: Our flesh is changed, but not our character. That then is problematic. "The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection" DA 357 If just our nature is changed (flesh), then we have a big problem. That would imply we will be raised with faulty characters. Hmmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Robert said: That then is problematic. "The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection" DA 357 If just our nature is changed (flesh), then we have a big problem. That would imply we will be raised with faulty characters. Hmmm? I quoted the following: Quote The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. 13MR 82 It's clear what this is saying, isn't it? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: Jesus said something specific to Nicodemus about what was necessary for Nicodemus to enter the kingdom of heaven. I see nothing in what Jesus said to Nicodemus which corresponds to your idea. Do you? Again, as stated before, Jesus is dealing with a grown man well past the age of accountability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 .....unless we become like little children... you know the rest.. Am good with that. Robert 1 Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Robert said: Again, as stated before, Jesus is dealing with a grown man well past the age of accountability. As I asked previously, please quote enough of the conversation to have a context. Here's the context: Quote Robert: Justification by faith is your acceptance, by faith, that we stand justified "in Christ Jesus" before God and His holy law. Faith is a cognitive response to the gospel. Need I say anymore? Me: That faith is a cognitive response to the gospel is fine, but that brings us back to the question of what the gospel is. In reading John 3:14-16, I don't see your idea. I do see mine. Jesus said something specific to Nicodemus about what was necessary for Nicodemus to enter the kingdom of heaven. I see nothing in what Jesus said to Nicodemus which corresponds to your idea. Do you? What you have just written is non-responsive to the question. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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