Are we born justified?

[Robert]

 If a "sinner" is one who "sins", and sinning involves volition, then it wouldn't seem to make sense that a newborn is a "sinner",.....

A newborn is not a transgressor of God's law because that requires volition.  However a newborn is a sinner because he or she is born "bent-to-self" at no fault of his or her own.  Both receive from Adam a nature that is out of harmony with God's agape.

 

Because all of us share Adam's life, after the fall, we are born spiritually bankrupt.  The only love we know is self-love, not agape.  That's why all men (humanity) experiences the first death.  We belong to a condemned race.  See Romans 5:12-14

 

Christ has legally saved us from "the curse of the law (the 2nd death)".  Those who chose ( BTW, a newborn cannot chose) to remain "in Adam" will take the curse.  Those who chose to be "in Christ" (the last or 2nd Adam) through faith will not take the curse.

[LifeHiscost]

A newborn is not a transgressor of God's law because that requires volition.  However a newborn is a sinner because he or she is born "bent-to-self" at no fault of his or her own.  Both receive from Adam a nature that is out of harmony with God's agape.

 

Because all of us share Adam's life, after the fall, we are born spiritually bankrupt.  The only love we know is self-love, not agape.  That's why all men (humanity) experiences the first death.  We belong to a condemned race.  See Romans 5:12-14

 

Christ has legally saved us from "the curse of the law (the 2nd death)".  Those who chose ( BTW, a newborn cannot chose) to remain "in Adam" will take the curse.  Those who chose to be "in Christ" (the last or 2nd Adam) through faith will not take the curse.

But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin....James 4

 

One cannot be a sinner that does not sin and one cannot sin that does not know to do good.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

http://tinyurl.com/mbgpuy5

 

if you want the rest of the story.

 

 

 

 

  

The phrase “the curse of the law” refers to the death penalty that each of us earns for breaking God’s law. It is not a disparagement of God’s holy, just and good laws or a change in God’s expectations of His people. This passage simply refers to the mistaken idea that people can earn their salvation without God’s grace, and it upholds keeping God's 10 Commandments.

Christ’s death—in which He suffered the curse of hanging on a tree—makes it possible for us to be forgiven of our sins. If we repent of sinning, commit to a life of obedience to God’s law and allow God’s Spirit to work through us, we can receive God’s grace.

Christ’s death did not pave the way for Christians to go on breaking the law! Such an interpretation is contradictory to God’s Word. Instead, Christ’s death means we can be forgiven for breaking the commandments so that we can commit to obeying the commandments. It made it possible for God to write His laws on our hearts and to give us the power of the Holy Spirit to help us walk as Christ walked in total obedience to God’s holy law (Hebrews 8:10; 1 John 2:6). Of course, we still need God’s grace and forgiveness because obedience to God’s law does not make up for our prior disobedience.

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

KJV Isaiah 11:

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

KJV Luke 20:

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

 

In light of the above verses, the babies in the new earth are therefore NOT procreated there. So, from where are they then? The only possible answer is that they are among the resurrected throng of the just at the Second Coming. And because only those whose names are in the book of life can enter the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27), it necessarily follows that babies are born with their names already written in the book of life.

 

The OTHER possibility (probability) is that all infants and children (along with all who lived and died in ignorance) will be resurrected as "the rest of the dead" at the 8th millennium, to continue their mortal lives, to learn the ways of God, and to choose whom they will serve.  Many WILL choose to serve the LORD.  Most will rebel as the army of Gog/Magog. 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

http://prophecyviewpoint.co/

[pnattmbtc]

A newborn is not a transgressor of God's law because that requires volition.  However a newborn is a sinner because he or she is born "bent-to-self" at no fault of his or her own.  Both receive from Adam a nature that is out of harmony with God's agape.

 

This explanation seems a bit problematic in that it asserts that one is "not a transgressor of God's law" but is a "sinner", which is making my point that "sinner" is an ambiguous term.  Certainly one would expect a "sinner" to be a transgressor of the law.

 

How about saying one is born "condemned in Adam but justified in Christ"?  Does this express your thought?

[pnattmbtc]

The phrase “the curse of the law” refers to the death penalty that each of us earns for breaking God’s law.

 

I don't think this is accurate.  I don't think any Bible writer conceived of "the curse of the law" as a penalty that is earned.  Are you thinking of Galatians 3:13?  Or some other text?

[LifeHiscost]

I don't think this is accurate.  I don't think any Bible writer conceived of "the curse of the law" as a penalty that is earned.  Are you thinking of Galatians 3:13?  Or some other text?

Could have been but probably more of what is reflected where there is no curse in the Law kept, defined by the Ten commandments.

 

 7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.....Romans 7

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

 

Jesus' death justified no one, but it made ample provision for such if man would accept unconditional surrender. 

 

Then Christ's doing and dying didn't do anything!  That's blasphemy and anti-gospel.  This is what Paul terms "another gospel", i.e., conditional good news wrapped in salvation by works.  

[Robert]

This explanation seems a bit problematic in that it asserts that one is "not a transgressor of God's law" but is a "sinner", which is making my point that "sinner" is an ambiguous term.  Certainly one would expect a "sinner" to be a transgressor of the law.

 

 

"The Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation." Rom 4:15

 

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase" Rom 5:20

 

The law wasn't given to make matters better, but worse.  Before you were a sinner, but when the law comes you are transgressor.  

 

We are sinners by birth.  That simply means we are "bent-to-self".  We know only self-love.  Then the law comes along and points to this fact.  Then we become transgressors because now we are knowingly breaking the the law.

 

Christ has (past tense, refers to the cross) justified the human race.  This is grace.  It must be received by faith when one realizes he/she is a sinner in need of Christ's righteousness.  Babies, mentally handicapped folks, at no fault of their own, cannot understand such spiritual truths.  They cannot exercise faith.  Therefore it God's grace, through Christ, that saves them.  But to those who know the law justification must be retained through faith.

[LifeHiscost]

 

Grace through faith makes repentance possible in the willing soul, but there is no justification without such repentance.

 

Jesus' death justified no one, but it made amp[le provision for such if man would accept unconditional surrender. 

Since repentance is a gift of the Holy Spirit, it is not a work of man that would make it interfere with Jesus doing and dying.

 

.31"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, Whom God has given to those who obey Him."....Acts 5

 

13....for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure....Philippians 2

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

 

The law wasn't given to make matters better, but worse.  Before you were a sinner, but when the law comes you are transgressor.  

 

We are sinners by birth.  That simply means we are "bent-to-self".  We know only self-love.  Then the law comes along and points to this fact.  Then we become transgressors because now we are knowingly breaking the the law.

 

Christ has (past tense, refers to the cross) justified the human race.  This is grace.  It must be received by faith when one realizes he/she is a sinner in need of Christ's righteousness.  Babies, mentally handicapped folks, at no fault of their own, cannot understand such spiritual truths.  They cannot exercise faith.  Therefore it God's grace, through Christ, that saves them.  But to those who know the law justification must be retained through faith.

 

 

You're using "sinner" to mean "have a sinful nature?"  That's what it looks like to me.  Why not use "sinner" to mean "one who sins?"  And "have a sinful nature" to mean "bent-to-self"?  This seems clearer to me (as well as being in harmony with Scripture.  I can't think of any text in Scripture where "sinner" is used to mean "has a bent to self", as opposed to "one who sins").

 

When you say Christ past tense justified the human race at the cross, you're not talking about justification by faith.  I think this is where some of the confusion comes in.  That is, sometimes when "justified" is being used (I'm not talking about you specifically here, but in this thread) it means "justified by faith" and sometimes something else (like "legally justified").

 

When I saw the beginning of the thread, asking if babies are born justified, I thought "justified" needs to be defined, or people will just be talking past each other.

 

It is always the case that God's grace through Christ that saves a person.

 

Is it your thinking that all who cannot exercise faith will be saved? (i.e. all infants who die before being able to exercise faith, all mentally handicapped people, etc.)

[pnattmbtc]

If justification were given at the cross then why did the publican receive it through contrition and the pharisee did not ?

 

You and Robert are using the word "justified" differently.  You are using it to mean "justified by faith" but Robert isn't.

[Robert]

You and Robert are using the word "justified" differently.  You are using it to mean "justified by faith" but Robert isn't.

Bingo.

[Robert]

Is it your thinking that all who cannot exercise faith will be saved? (i.e. all infants who die before being able to exercise faith, all mentally handicapped people, etc.)

 

 

Yes....

[LifeHiscost]

Bingo.

 

 

 

pnattmbtc, on 29 Apr 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

  

 

…7....so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…Ephesians 2

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Tom Wetmore]

As a casual observer of this conversation it seems apparent to me that it is not so much about using a different definition of "justification" or "justified" but rather a difference of how one achieves that state - the means, conditions, and timing by which one is justified.

[pnattmbtc]

i am using  "justifiied in the accepted Bbile meaning of the word. The common, accepted Bible definition for justification  is " to be declared righteous. Why would or should  I think Robert meant anything other than just that?

 

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary-   Justification is the declaring of a person to be just or righteous. It is a legal term signifying acquittal,

 

Bible Gateway Definition- justification

a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom. 5:1-10

 

Perhaps you or Robert could give your other meaning to the word.

 

First of all, this is an excellent question.  It appeared to me from the beginning that there needed to be a definition of terms, especially "justified".

 

If you use the Bible Gateway Definition, where it speaks of forensic justification, then my understanding is that Robert's argument is Romans 5:18 is saying that this applies to all men.  In other words, all men are forensically justified, according to Romans 5:18.  Since "all" are included, this cannot be dependent upon one's exercising faith.

 

However, the Bible does speak of "justification by faith".  So if you are going to use the Bible Gateway definition for "justified" as meaning "forensic justification", then I think you have to allow for two definitions of "justified", according to the context, either "forensic justification" or "justification by faith", unless you consider these two to be identical (i.e. "forensic justification" = "justification by faith").

[pnattmbtc]

As a casual observer of this conversation it seems apparent to me that it is not so much about using a different definition of "justification" or "justified" but rather a difference of how one achieves that state - the means, conditions, and timing by which one is justified.

I think (but I could be wrong) that there is agreement as to what it means to be "justified by faith".  I think the disagreement is in regards to forensic justification.

[Robert]

....a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ....

 

How can infants, mentally handicapped, etc, exercise faith in Christ?  Clearly Romans 5:18 answers this legal question along with other Pauline texts. 

[Robert]

If you use the Bible Gateway Definition, where it speaks of forensic justification, then my understanding is that Robert's argument is Romans 5:18 is saying that this applies to all men.  In other words, all men are forensically justified, according to Romans 5:18.  Since "all" are included, this cannot be dependent upon one's exercising faith.

 

However, the Bible does speak of "justification by faith". 

 

 

Actually, Eph chapter two speaks of both:

 

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[pnattmbtc]

The word "justified" is derived from the Greek word "dikaiosuné" which is defined by Strong's as follows (parentheses theirs):

 

(usually if not always in a Jewish atmosphere), justice, justness, righteousness, righteousness of which God is the source or author, but practically: a divine righteousness. (end Strong's)

 

In English there is a distinction between the words "righteous" and "just", but not in Greek.

 

The word "justified" does not, of itself, necessarily imply a judicial verdict. For example:

 

"The meaning of the word justified. is made righteous. This is the exact term that appears in [bibles in] other languages . . . The Latin word for righteousness is justitia. To be just is to be righteous. Then we add the termination fy from the Latin word meaning to make, and we have the exact equivalent of the simpler term, make righteous. " E.J. Waggoner, Glad Tidings, page 40.

 

A difficulty in Biblical interpretation is there is a tendency to mix one's theological understanding of a passage with the meaning of the words used.  I'm not making the argument here that "justified" cannot be dealing with a judicial verdict, but that it is not necessary that "justified" be interpreted that way.  I don't believe "justified" need mean only one thing; it doesn't in English; why should it in Greek?  We need to consider the context, just like we would in English.

[8thdaypriest]

Eph 2:4  "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--

it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

 "you have been saved" -

Who is "you" ?  Is it not the Ephesian believers.

"We" were dead.

But now we are raised up and seated with him in the heavenly realms.

"You have been saved" - by grace - through faith.

 

The question is WHEN were "we" raised up" ?  Was it WHEN we believed, or WHEN Christ died?

Was EVERY human being "saved" WHEN Christ died on that cross?

Or do many remain "dead in trespasses and sins" ?

 

I believe we are saved as individuals WHEN we respond to the Spirit of Christ and BELIEVE based upon information which we have understood and believed.

The individual names are THEN written into the Book of Life.

Our "belief" is then demonstrated by repentance, confession of faith, and baptism.

If the individual is ABLE to do these things, but does not go forward with these demonstrations of faith,

he/she will be counted guilty before God and his/her name will be blotted from the Book of Life.

 

There is a study at my website titled "The Book of Life - A Challenge".

Here's the link:

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/1-BOOK%20OF%20LIFE%20-Challenge.pdf

[Tom Wetmore]

I really think you all are just overthinking this...

[Robert]

 "you have been saved" -

Who is "you" ?  Is it not the Ephesian believers.

"We" were dead.

But now we are raised up and seated with him in the heavenly realms.

 

Saved when?

 

Answer: "when we were dead in transgressions" (spiritually dead & lost).The "you" therefore is "all men"....

 

"God raised us (those "dead in transgressions") up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus."  

 

So while we were sinners, dead in transgressions & lost, God saved us "in Christ" and when He raised Christ "all men" were included in that resurrection because "in Him" we have a new, glorified corporate humanity that stands perfect before God and His law.

 

Here's more proof:

 

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:13,14 NASB

 

Were the Colossians all taken to heaven?  No, as children of Adam they died, but "in Christ" the 2nd Adam, "all men" have in Him a new, glorified, corporate humanity perfect before God and His law. Thus all men have been legally justified in Christ.

 

 

[Robert]

 

Saved when?

 

Answer: "when we were dead in transgressions" (spiritually dead & lost).The "you" therefore is "all men"....

 

"God raised us (those "dead in transgressions") up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus."  

 

So while we were sinners, dead in transgressions & lost, God saved us "in Christ" and when He raised Christ "all men" were included in that resurrection because "in Him" we have a new, glorified corporate humanity that stands perfect before God and His law.

 

Here's more proof:

 

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:13,14 NASB

 

Were the Colossians all taken to heaven?  No, as children of Adam they died, but "in Christ" the 2nd Adam, "all men" have in Him a new, glorified, corporate humanity perfect before God and His law. Thus all men have been legally justified in Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's more:

 

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love (agape) toward us, in that while we were yet sinners (not saints), Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood (his life laid down in death), we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies (again, unsaved sinners) we were (past tense) reconciled to God through the death of His Son....