Are we born justified?

[Robert]

 

Our "belief" is then demonstrated by repentance, confession of faith, and baptism.

 

Then these things are the Savior and not Christ?

 

No, these are things we do when we do not reject what has already taken place in the holy history of Christ.  

 

You see you were saved 2000 + yrs ago.  If you had died before God could reach you through His Spirit you would have been raised at the 1st resurrection.  If you had lived, past the age of accountability, God's Spirit would have impressed upon your heart your salvation in Christ Jesus. That now infers a choice:

 

1] retain this salvation through faith or 

 

2] reject it through unbelief. 

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, I noticed you have stated that babies are "sinners" because they have a bent to self.  Then you say they are not guilty because of volition.  I think that they are not guilty because of volition is a good point, but I'm not understanding why you would think a baby is a sinner since a sinner, by definition, one who sins.

 

From Webster's:  

 

Full Definition of SINNER

1

:  one that sins

 

 

If you have some other definition in mind, what is the definition, and where does it come from?

 

Regarding all infants going to heaven, an important question regarding heaven is one's fitness for heaven.  Just because babies are not guilty of sin does that mean that they are fit for heaven?  Fit for heaven, as I'm using this expression, means that they would be happy there.  There are statements from the Spirit of Prophesy regarding the importance of caring for fetuses and infants and the eternal consequences this could hold.  Do you think any baby would be happy in heaven, regardless of whether its parents (particularly the mother) were alcoholics, used drugs, were raised to hate God, etc.?

[Robert]

Robert, I noticed you have stated that babies are "sinners" because they have a bent to self.  Then you say they are not guilty because of volition.  I think that they are not guilty because of volition is a good point, but I'm not understanding why you would think a baby is a sinner since a sinner, by definition, one who sins.

 

From Webster's:  

 

Full Definition of SINNER

1

:  one that sins

 

 

If you have some other definition in mind, what is the definition, and where does it come from?

 

 

Keep in mind that Webster does not define the Bible.  

 

One can sin by thought, e.g., coveting or hating. lusting, etc.  I can covet someone's candy apple red Corvette and no policeman will touch me.

 

Every outward sin is preceded by an cherished thought. Where does it come from? "From within".  Look that up in your NT.

 

"Surely I was sinful at birth,  sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

 

We stand condemned because we share Adam's bent-to-self.  Our outward sins proves our inward bent.....Take two infants and place them in a room with no distractions. Give one a toy and the other nothing.  What will happen?  They will wrestle over that toy.  Why?  They are, at not fault of their own, self-centered.  But, they are not transgressors because "where there is no law there is no transgression."

[Robert]

 

Regarding all infants going to heaven, an important question regarding heaven is one's fitness for heaven. ...

How fit is fit?  Are we fit enough in Christ or do we need to add to His perfection?

[pnattmbtc]

Keep in mind that Webster does not define the Bible.  

 

One can sin by thought, e.g., coveting or hating. lusting, etc.  I can covet someone's candy apple red Corvette and no policeman will touch me.

 

Every outward sin is preceded by an cherished thought. Where does it come from? "From within".  Look that up in your NT.

 

"Surely I was sinful at birth,  sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

 

We stand condemned because we share Adam's bent-to-self.  Our outward sins proves our inward bent.....Take two infants and place them in a room with no distractions. Give one a toy and the other nothing.  What will happen?  They will wrestle over that toy.  Why?  They are, at not fault of their own, self-centered.  But, they are not transgressors because "where there is no law there is no transgression."

 

I used Webster because we are speaking in English, and you used an English word.  You used the word "sinner" in reference to a baby, and apparently had in mind the definition of "bent-to-self", but that is not what sinner means, so I was asking you to establish what you meant by the word you used.  We can hardly have a discussion which involves the meanings of words if we don't know what the words we are using mean.  This leads to people talking past each other, because each person has a different meaning in mind when they use a certain word, like "justification" or "sinner."

 

You say, "we stand condemned because we share Adam's bent-to-self. "

 

Where do you get this idea from?  I don't know of any inspired text which states this.  Does this enter into your understanding of Romans 5:18?  Also wouldn't it be more accurate to say (I'm trying to reproduce your thought) that we would have stood condemned because we share Adam's bent-to-self had not Christ stepped in and justified us, as in Romans 5:18?  So we don't stand condemned, but justified; that's your position, isn't it?

[pnattmbtc]

How fit is fit?  Are we fit enough in Christ or do we need to add to His perfection?

Fit is fit enough for heaven to be a place you'd like to be.  What's the point you're wishing to make with the second rhetorical question?

[8thdaypriest]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

John 3:7-8  "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

Are we "born" justified?  - Born "right" with God? 

I say NO.

 

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. (NKJ)

 

Human beings are "born" flesh. 

They are NOT "born of the Spirit" at the same moment when they are physically "born of the flesh".

 

Jesus death did not render every human being - past/present/and future - "born again of the Spirit". 

 

Paul's letters were addressed to believers (churches) who HAD been "born again of the Spirit". 

 

Belief is the result of an interaction between the Spirit of Christ, and the mind of the human being, as that person HEARS the gospel. 

The "new birth" - "of the spirit" results WHEN the person believes. 

This "new birth" does not happen in a vacuum, without information.

Without the information, the person CANNOT respond with belief. 

Now the Spirit CAN give information thru dreams or visions.  The information does not HAVE to be brought by human beings, but by far the usual is that God sends humans with the information.  

 

TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE

 

Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

    The promise of eternal life is given to “those who believe”.  It is not given to everyone.

 

John 1:12  “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”

        By implication, those who do not believe in His name (or who do not yet believe) - who have not “received Him” -  are not (or not yet) children of God.

 

Acts 16:30-31 “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’  So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” v. 33 “And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”

John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”  

    John 11:25-26  “I am the resurrection and the life.  He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.  And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”

 

No human being is physically BORN believing in Christ the risen Savior.

 

INFORMATION IS ESSENTIAL

 

    Romans 10:14 “But how are they to call on One in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in One of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim Him?” (NRS)

    Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.” (NRS)

Hearing the gospel message - is essential!  
There are millions of human beings who have died without any knowledge of God
or of His Son.  They must be resurrected, so that they can hear.
 

[8thdaypriest]

God gave dominion of the earth to Adam, (and physical immortality)  conditionally - based upon continued perfect obedience.

Mankind was created on probation. 

We know that BECAUSE Adam was created from "dust".  He was NOT created with an immortal spiritual body. 

He was mortal.  He COULD DIE. 

 

Spirit beings - angels - have to be destroyed in a special "lake of fire". 

God did not want humans to ever be tormented "unto the age of the ages" - as Satan and his angels will be.

 

Adam "sinned". 

 

God withdrew His special protection of Adam, and Satan took over the earth.  He stole the dominion (rulership) of earth.

 

We know this because Daniel 7:26 says, "They (the court) shall be seated, and they shall take away his (the little horn) dominion, to consume and destroy it forever."

Satan exercises his "dominion" through men he chooses.  The little horn will be one of those men (and the institution he represents).

 

God the Father is the ONLY BEING with immortality.  (I Tim 6:16).  He has shared that immortality with His Son, who will then share it with the redeemed.

 

Now - WHEN Adam rebelled against the express will of God, he and all his descendants were condemned to SLOW DEATH.

They were separated from the "tree of life".

DEATH is inevitable - without God's infusion of LIFE.

But that physical death is NOT "the wrath of God".  

The "wrath of God" is special execution, judgment death - with an awareness that one has been judged.

 

At that point - God promised "the Lamb" - "the seed of the woman" to crush the head of the Serpent.

God would eventually destroy the one who stole the dominion, thus returning the dominion to the ONE MAN who would perfectly obey His will. 

That ONE would be Jesus the Christ. 

Jesus will receive the dominion, WHEN it is taken from Satan. 

Jesus will then share that dominion with THOSE who "believe in Him" - in His right to rule - in His Lordship, and witness to that belief by "serving Him".

 

When Christ died, He won the right of dominion. 

The earth - and every thing, and every one on it (or ever on it) would BELONG to the Son of God. 

So He has the right to say just WHO will be in HIS kingdom - and who will not.

That is WHY all judgment is given to the Son.

 

The promise of HIS DEATH "covered" the inhabitants of earth with temporary protection from the "wrath of God". 

"Protection" - THAT is what the promise of His death initially accomplished. 

That is what His death still gives to us.  Protection from the "wrath of God". 

 

Does that temporary "protection" mean that every human being stands "justified" (right) before God the Father.

I say NO !!

Every human being stands "covered" (protected) from the "wrath of God".

 

Jesus carried (bore) our sins, and still carries our sins. 

But He will one day PLACE those sins on the head of Satan (along with his followers). 

Jesus does NOT carry those sins forever!

Satan (with those who have chosen to serve him by rejecting Christ) will then suffer the "wrath of God". 

 

If Jesus simply "paid for" every sin, of every human being, (past/present/and future), then

every human being would be given eternal life in His Kingdom. 

That's UNIVERSALISM. 

 

There are way too many Scriptures describing eternal death for those who continue in rebellion, for me to believe in universalism. 

 

He carries the sin of EVERY human being (past/present/future)

UNTIL the day He will place them onto the head of Satan (and his servants, both human and angelic). 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Robert]

Hearing the gospel message - is essential!  

There are millions of human beings who have died without any knowledge of God

or of His Son.  They must be resurrected, so that they can hear.

 

​There is no second probation.....

[Robert]

If Jesus simply "paid for" every sin, of every human being, (past/present/and future), then

every human being would be given eternal life in His Kingdom. 

That's UNIVERSALISM. 

By uniting His divinity with our fallen, corporate life from Adam Christ actually legally redeemed the human race from under law to under grace, but not all men will retain this truth.  Many will reject it and be lost.  That's not universalism.  

Edited May 2, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

Where do you get this idea from?  I don't know of any inspired text which states this. 

​Romans 5:12-14

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (i.e.,  "in Adam")-- 

13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

[Robert]

​Romans 5:12-14

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (i.e.,  "in Adam")-- 

 

​What is sin (singular)?  It is our "bent-to-self" what the  Bible calls "iniquity".  The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].  It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

When Adam transgressed, i.e., knowingly disobeyed, his nature took a u-turn.  Here's Ellen White:  

"Man (i.e., mankind, Adam) was originally endowed with noble powers and a well-balanced mind. He was perfect in his being, and in harmony with God. His thoughts were pure, his aims holy. But through disobedience (i.e., transgression), his powers were perverted, and selfishness took the place of love (agape)." (SC 17)  

Agape is a love in which there is no self-seeking (self-love).  At the fall Adam's nature became "bent-back" to himself.  Before he lived only for Eve's welfare & happiness, but after the fall he became self-centered through his love of self.  This self-love (iniquity) polluted his humanity.  Since we all share Adam's fallen humanity, indwelt with sin (iniquity), death (the 1st) comes to all men because Adam's transgression condemned the human race with in him.

13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

 

Notice, before the law was given on Mount Sinai, sin (iniquity) was in the world,  But, since no law had been given to expose sin, then how could anyone understand that they were sinners?  Yet death (our condemnation in Adam) took mankind to the grave.  Why?  We shared Adam's life.  Paul's point is that men were not dying because of guilt, but because men shared Adam's fallen life.

Adam knowingly transgressed.  He was guilty of sin.  His offspring, before the giving of the law, shared his condemned life.  That is why they were dying, but until the giving of the law they were not transgressors.  When the law is known then one becomes guilty of sin (transgression).  The wages of transgression is death, not the first, but rather the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever.

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned...."

 

The following is written by Jack Sequeira:

 

Now Paul is saying three things in this one verse:

1. He is saying that sin entered the world through one man.  Now the word “world” — the Greek word is “kosmos“ — has more than one meaning.  I have discovered at least six meanings for that one word.  The context tells you what is the meaning of the word and here the word “world” has the same meaning as it has in John 3:16:

   For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

   Here the word “world” means the human race, or mankind, or humanity, to which all of us belong.  What Paul is saying in the first statement is that sin became our heritage!  It became part of us through one man.

2. He is saying that this sin that this one man committed brought death to him.  The reason for this is obvious because God said to our first parents that the day they eat of the forbidden fruit, the day they sin, they will surely — or as the Hebrew word puts it, they will “certainly” — die.  So that is no problem.  The problem is in the third statement.

3. This death did not only come to Adam, but it spread to the whole human race, which is you and me, all of us.  This death spread; it became universal.

Now Paul was an ex-Pharisee.  He was an expert on the law.  He knew what Deuteronomy 24:16 said:

 

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

 

He knew what Ezekiel 18 said.  [Read the entire chapter, but here is Ezekiel 18:20:]

 

The soul who sins is the one who will die.  The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.  The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

 

He knew that, legally, you cannot transfer guilt and punishment.  You can’t transfer.  No law allows that.  And so, because he knows that, he makes a statement.  He says, “This death spread to all men because all sinned.”

It is that last phrase which is an incomplete statement that is the cause of the problem.  I can imagine in heaven, some of those great scholars who wrestled with this through the ages of the Christian church will go to Paul and they will shake their heads at him and they will say, “Paul, why didn’t you finish the sentence!  Don’t you know what headaches you caused us?!”  I know what he will say.  “Why didn’t you read the context?”

There are only two ways you and I can finish the sentence.  Did Paul mean that all die because all sinned IN Adam?  Or did he mean all die because all sinned LIKE Adam?  Which one?  That is the big issue.  I don’t know if you wrestled with the problem, but those who have belong to one of these two camps.

Now we can’t get the answer to the problem in verse 12.  We have to look at the context, we have to approach it from every angle.  I want to tell you the position I have taken:  I am convinced that what Paul is saying here is that we all die because we all sinned IN Adam and not LIKE Adam.  I’m going to give you five reasons.

I want you to wrestle with this, and I don’t care who you go to, but I would say this much:  if you take the position that we all die because we sin LIKE Adam, I want you to know that I will not turn against you.  I will not report you to the conference.  I will still be your friend and your brother in Christ.  I’ll respect you.  All I ask is for you to be honest with the text and give me a reason from the Bible — not from your own viewpoint, from the Bible — why you have taken the position.  I’m going to give you my reasons.

Four of them are Biblical reasons.  One is an historical reason because you have to take history into account, too.  Let’s go through these five reasons so that after we do that we can go to the passage and understand what Paul is saying.

Argument #1. Historically, it is not true that all die because all sinned LIKE Adam.  Take babies, for example.  Do babies die?  Yes.  Yet they don’t have personal sin.  A baby of three months doesn’t have personal sin.  It has not sinned like Adam, yet it dies.  Therefore, it’s contradicting what Paul says.  Because Paul says that death spread to all men.  No exception.

Argument #2. This is a grammatical reason, in that Paul uses the aorist tense.  That’s a tense we don’t have in the English language, but it’s a past historical tense.  Therefore, it implies a once-and-for-all act that took place in the past.  If Paul had in mind that it is our personal sins that bring death to us, then he would use the present continuous tense.  He doesn’t.  I say this because, in chapter 3 of Romans, Paul makes a similar statement in verse 23, except there he adds something else.  Romans 3:22-23:

 

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.  There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

In Romans 3:22,23 he says the gospel of Righteousness by Faith applies to ALL men, Jews and Gentiles.  And the reason is there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.  Why?  Because all — that is, Jews and Gentiles — have sinned, the very same statement that he uses in verse 12 of chapter 5, in the same aorist tense.  All have sinned.  But he adds, “and besides all having sinned,” and he says, “fall short of the glory of God.” And there in the second statement he is using the present continuous tense.

What did Paul mean, to fall short of the glory of God?  It is another way of simply saying “sin.” Because “sin” simply means “coming short of the mark.” And the mark is always the glory of God, which we know is the love of God.  When we come short of Agape, we are sinning.  So when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:3:

 

If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love [agape], I gain nothing.

 

That’s means you are sinning.  So what Paul is saying in Romans 3:23 is:  “All sinned in the past, plus all are presently, personally sinning themselves.”

So if the second statement refers to our personal sins, the first statement has to be what took place in Adam.  What Paul is saying is that we sinned in Adam, but that’s not all.  We also have personal sins.  We are sinning presently.  So the aorist tense implies an act that took place in the past.

Argument #3. Let’s go back to chapter 5.  In verses 13 and 14 of Romans 5, which is an explanation of verse 12, which we will come to in a moment, Paul makes it clear that the people who live from Adam to Moses were dying even though their sins were not identical or like Adam’s transgression.  In other words, they were dying even though their personal sins were unlike Adams’ sin, which is a contradiction of the idea that we all die because we all sinned like Adam.  Paul is saying the very opposite.  They were dying even though they did not sin LIKE Adam’s transgression.

Argument #4. In part of the context, verses 15 to 18, not once, not twice, but, you will discover, four times, Paul makes it very clear that we are judged, we are condemned, and we MUST die BECAUSE OF ADAM’S SIN and NOT our personal sins!  Therefore, the context tells me that Paul says Adam’s death spread to all men because ALL SINNED IN ADAM!  Or, to be more accurate with the Greek, “in as much as all sinned,” and we finish the sentence by the context, “in Adam.”

Argument #5. But now I want to give you the fifth reason, which to me is the most important argument.  If you forget the first four, I don’t mind.  But this fifth argument is so crucial that it is important that you clearly understand what Paul is doing here.  In Romans 5, verses 12 to 21, Paul is comparing Adam with Christ.  The reason why he is discussing Adam and our situation in Adam in verses 12 to 14 is because he wants to use Adam as a type or as a pattern of Christ.  In other words, he is saying:  “What happens to us because of Adam in the same way happens to us because of Christ.”

Edited May 2, 2015 by Robert

[8thdaypriest]

 

​There is no second probation.....

​It will NOT be a "second probation" Robert. 

It will be continued probation for those individuals who never rejected Christ (because they were too young to choose, or lacked information upon which to base a choice).  Just like probation for the daughter of the ruler of the synagogue did NOT END when she died.  It continued when she was resurrected to continue her life. 

[8thdaypriest]

1 John 3:4 Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1Jo 3:4 NRS)

Sin is NOT defined as "a tendency" to anything.  Just because I have a tendency to eat too much chocolate, does not make me guilty of EATING too much chocolate.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Peter preached, "Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." 

Most Christians today teach that all we have to do is "believe" - that is acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God (though most to NOT acknowledge that He really was literally the Son of God the Father), and that He died for our sins.

But consider what Peter said, "Believe on the LORD - Jesus the Christ."  Believe that Jesus IS LORD.  That HE is "master" - that's what LORD means in the Greek.  If you believe that Jesus IS LORD over this earth, that HE created this earth and ordained its laws, THEN you will obey HIM - as LORD.

You won't just see Jesus as the One who will save you from eternal death.  You will SERVE HIM as LORD of your life.  That service is evidence of your BELIEF in His right to rule. 

Those who "serve Him" will one day "reign with Him".  Little infants CANNOT "serve Him".  Neither can persons who have never heard of Him. 

I don't believe it's about how many sins you commit, vs how many sins are now forgiven for you.  It's about whether to acknowledge WHO He is by serving Him.   

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, you said, "We stand condemned because we share Adam's bent-to-self."  I asked what text said that.  You said Romans 5:12-14.  I'm not seeing that.  By the way, I appreciate your long posts; I know it takes time to write all that out.

I don't think Paul's idea is no that we are condemned because we share Adam's bent-to-self, but that we all died in Adam and we all were justified in Christ.

When you say, "we stand condemned", that suggests something like a legal status.  I don't know if that's what you meant, but if it's not, perhaps you could restate what you mean in other words.  If it is, it doesn't make sense that we would stand condemned for something Adam did.  We could suffer the consequences of what Adam did (which I think is both accurate and Paul's point), but we wouldn't "stand condemned" because of "Adam's bent-to-self" because that's neither just nor logical (unless you mean something like "suffer the consequences", in which case I could see that).

Instead of saying "we die because we share Adam's fallen life" I think I would say "We die because human nature changed when Adam fell, and he passed that nature to his descendants."  I think this may be saying the same thing.  I think what I wrote is easier to understand.

I actually like the way Waggoner communicates the idea quite well.  Jones too in his GCB sermons.

[Robert]

​It will NOT be a "second probation" Robert. 

It will be continued probation for those individuals who never rejected Christ (because they were too young to choose, or lacked information upon which to base a choice).  Just like probation for the daughter of the ruler of the synagogue did NOT END when she died.  It continued when she was resurrected to continue her life. 

​Unbiblical...Rev 22:

 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

1 John 3:4 Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1Jo 3:4 NRS)

Sin is NOT defined as "a tendency" to anything.  Just because I have a tendency to eat too much chocolate, does not make me guilty of EATING too much chocolate.

 

 

​So sin, to you, is breaking rules?  No, you have sin in you.  Your very nature is called sin.  See Romans 7:

19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 

 

The very fact you have a bent-to-self disqualifies you for heaven.  That iniquity in you (sarx) cannot enter into heaven.  Hence you, as a child of Adam must die, and in place of this mortal, sinful life you are to be recreated, as the angels, at the 2nd coming.

 

That desire within you comes from your own nature and it is sin.  I'm not writing about outward temptation, I'm writing about your own inner lust.....Your nature must die...hence you must die.  At the Resurrection you are raised immortal, sinless and you will be like the angels.  You are a new creation in Christ....

 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

1John 1:9        If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

​

Infants, cannot confess sin.  Therefore between being born and reaching the age of accountability Christ's doing and dying covers infants.  Hence we are born justified....

[pnattmbtc]

This thread is a bit difficult to keep tabs on, seems to wind all over the place.  But quite interesting.  I wanted to return to the "curse of the law" we were discussing earlier.  It was suggested that this is a penalty which is earned, which I think is more complicated than what it actually means.  It's referring back to Deuteronomy where the blessings and curses are laid out.  The idea is not of an arbitrary or declared pronouncement, but of cause and effect.  If we follow God, blessings will follow.  If we disobey God, bad results (the curses) will follow.  The bad things follow because sin is based on living for self, and living for self causes bad results.

Christ never lived for self, so should have received nothing but blessings.  But He took our sin upon Him, and received the consequences of sin.

Robert's point (first taught by Waggoner as an explication of Scripture, as far as I can tell) is that Christ's sacrifice provides a corporate benefit.  EGW puts it like this: "To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life."

When we perceive the truth, the cost of our salvation, the love of God revealed by the cross, and so forth, and respond in faith (which involves appreciation, gratitude) we are justified by faith/reconciled to God/converted.  The deeper our appreciation, the deeper our conversion.

[pnattmbtc]

​

Infants, cannot confess sin.  Therefore between being born and reaching the age of accountability Christ's doing and dying covers infants.  Hence we are born justified....

​We are all justified in this sense, right?  That's the point of Romans 5:18.  Justification by faith occurs when one exercises faith.  It's difficult to understand how this would happen with an infant, which is why I think we have the comments of EGW regarding not having light on this subject, etc.  I think, based on what we know of God's character, that we can safely assume God will take all to heaven who would be happy there.

[Robert]

​We are all justified in this sense, right?  That's the point of Romans 5:18. 

​When?  At the cross!  It is there that the law of God was legally fulfilled because Christ's death was our corporate death.  Romans 6:6 states as much: "our old man (our old life from Adam) was crucified with Him".  So when our corporate life died in Christ all men died.  2 Cor 5:14 " if One  (Christ) died for all, then all died"

So legally speaking, the law of God has been satisfied in the doing & dying of Christ our corporate representative.  Hence legally speaking "all men" have taken "the curse of the law" in Christ Jesus.

Since God's agape love cannot force His redemption upon sinners a choice must be made.  That choice is faith or justification by faith.  However, for those who cannot chose, for whatever reason, God's grace (justification) saves.....

Edited May 3, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

It's difficult to understand how this would happen with an infant, which is why I think we have the comments of EGW regarding not having light on this subject, etc. 

​"The things He has revealed are for us and for our children. There are things we do not now understand. We are ignorant of many things that are plainly revealed. " {3SM 313.3}

"The question has been asked me, 'Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?'  I answer that He has light that is new to us and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth.  We (Ellen White includes herself) have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us (future tense)."  — Ellen G. White, Selected Messages Vol. 1, page 401

[Robert]

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Good-About-News-Salvation/dp/0945315074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430624597&sr=8-1&keywords=What's+Good+About+the+Good+News%3F%3A+The+Plan+of+Salvation+in+a+New+Light

The above books explores these issues....I no longer have it.