Are we born justified?

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

I've got me as proof!  I've experienced this personally, and Ellen White spoke of many who, like Paul, had experienced this.  So did Waggoner.  Many SDA's have experienced this.  I don't know how you could not know this, assuming you've spent any time in an SDA community.  This is a *very* common experience.

 

They might delight in their own self-righteousness and think they are in harmony with the law.  This is not delighting in the law of God. It's using the law to glory in one's self as Paul did when he was a Pharisee:

Phil 2:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

What a difference we see in Romans 7....No longer does Paul view himself as blameless, but as a wretched sinner.  

No, the man of Romans 7 is converted.

The man of Phil 3:6 is unconverted and self-righteous

[Robert]

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone (i.e., his pride in his law performance).

 

[Robert]

Let me ask  you,  pnattmbtc:  Do you love your neighbor as you love yourself?

Be careful in your answer....

I can tell you no, you fall short.  That's the man of Romans 7 experience.  Are you unconverted?

[pnattmbtc]

21 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

What Paul wrote in Romans 7 is perhaps the most controverted portion of Scripture, 

Quote

Robert: To you maybe, not to me....

This is like my saying, "the sun is a star" and you reply "to you maybe, not to me".

 

[Robert]

2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

This is like my saying, "the sun is a star" and you reply "to you maybe, not to me".

 

Here's Jack on Romans 7

I would say that Paul is talking about the Christian.  I’ll give you my reasons:

1. From verse 14 onwards, Paul moves from the past tense, which was predominant in the previous verses, to the present continuous tense in verse 14 onwards.  That would hardly be the case if he were talking of his preconverted experience.

    

2. My second argument would be:  what Paul is talking of in Romans 7, this tremendous struggle with defeat, completely contradicts what he says about himself as a Pharisee, in Philippians 3:6.  There he says:

    

    

   ...As for legalistic righteousness, 

   [I was]

    faultless.

    

   Here [Romans 7:24] he cries:

    

   What a wretched man I am!

    

   This is a complete contradiction to his preconverted experience.

3. The third argument I will give is Romans 7:22, where Paul says:

    

    

   For in my inner being I delight in God’s law....

    

   It is not normal for an unconverted man to delight in the law of God.  In fact, Romans 8:7 says:

    

   ...The sinful mind is hostile to God.  It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

    

   So, again, verse 22 implies that he’s talking of his Christian experience.

4. Then, look at the context of the whole section.  Romans 5, 6, 7, and 8 are dealing with the Christian.  Why would he suddenly turn to his non-Christian experience?

    

5. Finally, there are statements, like Romans 8:23, where he talks about groaning, and Galatians 5:17 where he talks about the struggle between flesh and spirit which agree with Romans 7, and which have to do with Christian experience.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

 

How do you get salvation by works from what she wrote? 

"Defects of character must be...overcome through the grace of Christ"

That's perfectionism.  We must fully overcome our faulty characters or no heaven for us....That's how I read that.

 

So she clearly understood that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone.  Besides your two choices, there is a third possibility, which is that her understanding was better than yours is.  I'll go with that one 

Then she needs to make up her mind:

1] Perfectionism?

or 

2] we are complete "in Christ" by faith

 

Your idea, as I understand it, is that as long as we have the right cognitive understanding of a given fact (the corporate forensic idea you have), then God will change your character when your are resurrected.  This means God's prizes a cognitive understanding of a given fact more than anything else, including all decisions that we make, including how we deal with Jesus Christ personally.  How does this speak well of God?

Jesus said, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).  This is the gospel!  It's not about believing a certain fact, but knowing a certain Person.

 

[Robert]

8 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

  This is the gospel!  It's not about believing a certain fact, but knowing a certain Person.

 

You can know Jesus all day long, but His own law condemns you because you are a sinner and unfit for heavenly mansions. So it is the gospel, how Christ satisfied His law by assuming your life from Adam, that saves.  Without the gospel relationship is meaningless. We can have a relationship because we are accepted before God "in Christ".  

[Robert]

 

The Sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption,—the Son of God uplifted on the cross. This is to be the foundation of every discourse given by our ministers.—Gospel Workers, 315. 7ABC 457.3

[pnattmbtc]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

 

The Sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption,—the Son of God uplifted on the cross. This is to be the foundation of every discourse given by our ministers.—Gospel Workers, 315. 7ABC 457.3

Amen to this!  Here's some common ground.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's the context to the above statment:

Quote

To my ministering brethren I would say, Preach the word. Do not bring to the foundation wood, hay, and stubble,—your own surmisings and speculations, which can benefit no one. Subjects of vital importance are revealed in the word of God, and these are worthy of our deepest thought. But we are not to search into matters on which God has been silent. GW 314.3

When questions arise upon which we are uncertain, let us ask, What saith the Scripture? And if the Scripture is silent upon the question at issue, let it not be made the subject of discussion. Let those who wish for something new, seek for that newness of life resulting from the new birth. Let them
purify their souls by obeying the truth, and act in harmony with the instruction that Christ has given. GW 314.4

The only question asked in the judgment will be, “Have they been obedient to My commandments?” Petty strife and contention over questions of no importance has no part in God's great plan. Those who teach the truth should be men of solid minds, who will not lead their hearers into a field of thistles, as it were, and leave them there. GW 315.1

This is right before the paragraph quoted in the above post.

[Robert]

30 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Amen to this!  Here's some common ground.

Finally....

[Robert]

30 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

 Those who teach the truth should be men of solid minds, who will not lead their hearers into a field of thistles, as it were, and leave them there. GW 315.1

Oh, so are you suggesting that I am leading men into a field of thistles or was that not your intent?

 

[pnattmbtc]

22 minutes ago, Robert said:

Oh, so are you suggesting that I am leading men into a field of thistles or was that not your intent?

 

No, lol.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the cross, are you familiar with "the larger view"?  This refers to a theme that A. Graham Maxwell presented in regards to the cross.

[Robert]

25 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

No, lol.

That's good news for me....

[Robert]

25 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Regarding the cross, are you familiar with "the larger view"?  This refers to a theme that A. Graham Maxwell presented in regards to the cross.

No, not really....

[pnattmbtc]

©1982, Graham Maxwell –Page 1 of 5 JUSTIFICATION; SET RIGHT WITH GOD A Graham Maxwell

There once was peace throughout the universe. All the members of God’s vast family trusted each other, and all of them trusted their heavenly Father. He in turn could safely trust in them. And where there is such mutual trust and trustworthiness there is perfect peace, freedom and security.

But something went wrong in God’s universe. The Bible records a devastating breakdown of trust in His family, even to the extent of war in heaven. (Revelation 12:7-17) The brilliant leader of God’s angels – once called Lucifer, meaning ‘lightbearer’, but now called Satan or ‘the devil’, meaning ‘accuser’ or ‘adversary’ – succeeded in persuading many of his fellow angels that God was unworthy of their faith. How sin came in.

Thus sin entered the universe, for as Paul explains, sin is in essence a violation and breach of trust. (Romans 14:23) Or, as John defines it, sin is an attitude of lawlessness and rebellion. (John 3:4, NEB) All of God’s children – both loyal and disloyal – have been caught up in the consequences of this revolt. Particularly have His children on this planet been disastrously affected by this epidemic of disaffection and distrust.

Through it all God remains our gracious and grieving Father. He does not want to lose any of His children. (2 Peter 3:9) ‘How can I give you up, how can I let you go!’ is His cry in Hosea. (Hosea 11:8) If only He could win us back to trust Him, He as our Creator could readily heal the damage done. Setting things right. To set right what has gone wrong in His family, God must first persuade His deceived and hurting children to trust Him once again. All that He has done to make salvation possible, and all that He is willing to do for us is of no avail if we do not trust Him.

There is no substitute for trust. This explains Paul’s answer to the jailer in Philippi. When the earthquake broke open the doors of the prison, the terrified man desperately inquired, ‘What must I do to be saved?’ This was no time for lengthy explanation. All the jailer needed was Paul’s memorably brief reply, ‘ “Put your trust in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” ’ (Acts 16:25-34, NEB) Some Bible translations quote Paul as saying, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus.’ Others have, ‘Place your faith in the Lord Jesus.’

Actually, all three words, ‘faith’, ‘belief’, and ‘trust’ are translated from the same Greek word used by the apostle.  A question of trust. All God has ever asked of His people throughout the universe is trust. But this is no trivial request. The faith that God desires is more than the mere acknowledgement of His existence and power. The devils have a faith like that, and in their distrust of so powerful a God they ‘tremble with fear’. (James 2:19, GNB) Our heavenly Father desires our love, our reverence, our admiration for His wise and gracious ways, our willingness to listen and obey – all freely given because we have found Him to be so utterly worthy of such regard.

But is it safe to trust in God? Surely it would not be wise to trust someone we do not know – and know well? God’s enemies have charged that He cannot be trusted. Has God replied to these accusations? Do we find His answers a sufficient basis for our faith? The sixty-six books of the Bible are a record of the lengths to which God has been willing to go to convince us of His trustworthiness. There are no shortcuts to trust. Claims of trustworthiness prove nothing. The devil can make such claims. Hitler claimed he could be trusted, and history showed the folly of believing mere promises and claims without confirming evidence. Even though God has been falsely accused, there is only one way to meet the charge. Only by the demonstration of trustworthiness over a long period of time and under a great variety of circumstances – especially difficult ones – can trust be re-established and confirmed. When God came among us.

This is why God in so ‘many and various ways’ demonstrated the truth about Himself, ‘to our fathers’ through the long centuries of Old Testament history. (Hebrews 1:1, RSV) Finally He sent His Son to live among us. And the way Jesus lived, the way He treated people, the things He taught about His Father, and most of all the unique and awful way He died, were the clearest revelation of the truth about the trustworthiness of God the universe will ever see or need. What a price God has been willing to pay to restore and confirm trust in His family!

And the costly demonstration was not only for the benefit of us sinful mortals. The whole universe has been involved. Christ did not die for sinful men alone. He shed His blood for sinless angels too! For they, too, needed the faith-confirming message of the cross. Paul explained this to the believers in Colosse. ‘Through the Son, then, God decided to bring the whole universe back to himself.

God made peace through his Son’s death on the cross and so brought back to himself all things, both on earth and in heaven.’ (Colossians 1:19, 20, GNB)  Twice in his letter to the Ephesians Paul wrote of God’s purpose to bring His whole family back together again in unity and harmony. (Ephesians 1:10; 3:10) As Jesus said before His crucifixion, ‘ “When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me.” ’ (John 12:32, GNB)

The cross – a magnet. The 1611 first edition of the King James Version has Jesus saying that He will draw ‘every man’. But later editions of this most famous of all English Bibles carefully indicate, by placing it in italics, that the word ‘men’ has been supplied. Paul’s larger understanding of the involvement of the onlooking universe in the meaning of the cross indicates that the Good News Bible ‘ “I will draw everyone” ’ is to be preferred.

Just how Jesus’ death on the cross served to meet Satan’s charges and prove the trustworthiness of God’s character and government is too large a topic for this brief article. (See Romans 3:25, 26) But suffice it to say that ever since Christ cried out on Calvary, ‘It is finished’, the loyal angels have never tired of assuring God that He has won their everlasting love and trust. (Revelation 4:8; 5:11-14) Only here on this planet are there any remaining doubts about the truthfulness and trustworthiness of God!

But the Bible records that through the centuries God has succeeded in winning back many sinners to be His trusting friends. One of the most celebrated of these was Abraham, and the Old Testament stories of his experiences and conversations with God are most encouraging examples of the kind of relationship our heavenly Father desires to have with His children. Several times Abraham failed to keep faith with God. But finally he came to know and trust God well enough to be willing to sacrifice his son.

The Bible offers a most enlightening explanation of how heaven evaluated this demonstration of Abraham’s faith. ‘Was it not by his action, in offering his son Isaac upon the altar, that our father Abraham was justified? Surely you can see that faith was at work in his actions, and that by these actions the integrity of his faith was fully proved. Here was fulfillment of the words of Scripture: “Abraham put his faith in God, and that faith was counted to him as righteousness”; and elsewhere he is called “God’s friend”.’ (James 2:21-23, NEB)

This passage of Scripture, as translated in the New English Bible, contains the famous theological term ‘justified’. Through the centuries Christian theologians have developed a considerable vocabulary of Latin origin to describe the provisions of the plan of salvation – such terms as ‘justification’, ‘sanctification’, ‘propitiation’, ‘expiation’, ‘vicarious’, ‘substitution’, and many more. ‘Justify’ = set right. These are grand old words and part of our Christian heritage. Jesus and Paul, of course, never used them. Jesus spoke Aramaic.

Paul wrote in Greek. And, if you prefer, there are much simpler ways of translating the terms they used.  For example, the Greek word often rendered ‘justify’ may be understood more simply as ‘set right’, ‘put right’. God has been working to put right what went wrong in His universe, to resolve the conflict of distrust in His family. When a person has been won back to trust, it can be truly said of him that he has been set right once again with God. It is helpful to compare the Good News Bible translation of this passage in James about God’s regard for Abraham’s friendship and faith. ‘How was our ancestor Abraham put right with God?

It was through his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. Can’t you see? His faith and his actions worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions. And the scripture came true that said, “Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous.” And so Abraham was called God’s friend.’ (James 2:21-23, GNB)

Trusting friendship is the very essence of what God has always wanted of His children. He inspired Hosea to write to Israel, ‘It is true love that I have wanted, not sacrifice; the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings. But they, like Adam, have broken their agreement; again and again they have played me false.’ (Hosea 6:6, 7, Phillips)

For many years God pleaded with His erring people to come back and be faithful once again. Patiently He kept on calling, ‘Come home, Israel, come home to the Lord your God! For it is your sins which have been your downfall. Take words of repentance with you as you return to the Lord; say to him, Clear us from all our evil.’ And God promised, ‘I will love them with all my heart.’ (Hosea 14:1, 2, 4, Phillips) The prodigal son did just this. He came home with words of repentance. And his father was so glad to see him that he didn’t let him finish his confession. This is how our heavenly Father feels about every sinner who comes back, Jesus explained. (Luke 15:10-32) But Israel in Hosea’s day did not choose to come home. And God cried over them, ‘My people are bent on turning away from me. . . . How, oh how, can I give you up, Ephraim! How, oh how, can I hand you over, Israel!’ (Hosea 11:7, 8, Phillips) God will miss us if we’re lost. He will miss us if we don’t come home.

Think of the eternal void brilliant Lucifer will leave in the infinite memory of God. But for many of us the revelation of the truth about our God, the picture of God presented through all of Scripture, leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4) and to faith. (Romans 10:17) In trust and confidence we look forward to seeing God. Though our heavenly Father knows everything about us, we have no need to be afraid. God is forgiveness personified. He will cast all our sins behind His back. (Isaiah 38:17) He will ‘send them to the bottom of the sea!’ (Micah 7:19, GNB)  And He will not only forgive us but even treat us as if we had always been His loyal children. Remember how God spoke of sinful but repentant David as having always walked before Him, ‘ “with integrity of heart and uprightness” ’! (1 Kings 9:4, RSV) No wonder Paul could say that those who have been set right with God enjoy peace with their heavenly Father. (Romans 5:1) How can we be sure that we have been set right with God? Or, if you prefer, how can we be sure that we have been justified? Well . . . have we been won back to trust Him?

Are we willing to listen and accept His forgiveness? Do we trust Him enough to allow Him to correct and heal us? Have we, like David, welcomed the Holy Spirit to create new hearts and right spirits within us? Could we be trusted with the privileges of freedom and eternal life? Has all rebelliousness gone, and has love taken its place? As more light has come, do we always say yes to the truth? For we have much yet to learn about our infinite God. We may know as little theology as the thief on the cross. But if we love, admire, and trust in God’s Son as he did that crucifixion day, we are safe to admit to the kingdom. (Luke 23:39-43) Like Mary, it will be our greatest delight to sit at Jesus’ feet and hear Him tell us more about the Father. You see, to be set right with God, all He asks of us is unreserved, whole-hearted trust.

[LifeHiscost]

   Are we willing to listen and accept His forgiveness? Do we trust Him enough to allow Him to correct and heal us? Have we, like David, welcomed the Holy Spirit to create new hearts and right spirits within us? Could we be trusted with the privileges of freedom and eternal life? Has all rebelliousness gone, and has love taken its place? As more light has come, do we always say yes to the truth? For we have much yet to learn about our infinite God. We may know as little theology as the thief on the cross. But if we love, admire, and trust in God’s Son as he did that crucifixion day, we are safe to admit to the kingdom. (Luke 23:39-43) Like Mary, it will be our greatest delight to sit at Jesus’ feet and hear Him tell us more about the Father. You see, to be set right with God, all He asks of us is unreserved, whole-hearted trust.

A. Graham Maxwell

That sounds great. Just what I need in solving a difficult misunderstanding between a brother in the faith and myself.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

[pnattmbtc]

1 hour ago, LifeHiscost said:

 

A. Graham Maxwell

That sounds great. Just what I need in solving a difficult misunderstanding between a brother in the faith and myself.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

http://www.pineknoll.org/ has much of his material.  I've found his perspective to be very helpful.  Glad it was just what you need!