Robert Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 The problems which confront us, and God, are not chiefly legal ones. Legally, the law demands a righteous life, one without self-love. But for those who transgress it demands death, the 2nd death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Sometimes I am just posting my thoughts on the subject. I'm not stating conclusions. I regard this forum as sort of a think tank. We all share our thoughts, which helps me to formulate - in my own mind - some conclusions. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Sometimes I am just posting my thoughts on the subject. I'm not stating conclusions. I regard this forum as sort of a think tank. We all share our thoughts, which helps me to formulate - in my own mind - some conclusions. Me too. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Legally, the law demands a righteous life, one without self-love. But for those who transgress it demands death, the 2nd death. I don't think this is an especially helpful way of looking at the problem. Let's say for a moment, the law is not an issue. Would that allow the wicked to go to heaven? "God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes." (GC 542). "A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." (GC 543) The wicked don't love God, nor are they drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. They would be miserable in heaven; it would be torture to them. These are issues which need to be dealt with, regardless of any legal issues. How does one who hates God become transformed into one who loves God? This is a central issue of the Gospel. Edited May 9, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) The wicked don't love God, nor are they drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. They would be miserable in heaven; it would be torture to them. These are issues which need to be dealt with, regardless of any legal issues. How does one who hates God become transformed into one who loves God? This is a central issue of the Gospel. What does this have to do with being born justified? Are you suggesting that infants who died before experiencing Christian living would be unhappy in heaven? Edited May 9, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 So - God resurrects them, judges them, then horribly torments them with 7 plagues, then kills them, only to resurrect them again (after 1000 years) to execute them AGAIN. Is that about right? So - what is so wrong with the scenario I see in the Bible. 1. Before Christ returns, knowledge of HIM and of His law, will spread to all the world. 2. Jesus returns. He resurrects EVERYONE who has heard of God and understands His law must be obeyed. They stand with the living, to see Christ in glory. (Dan. 12:2-3) a. Those who rejected God and His Law, He leaves behind to die in the plagues. They burn up with the earth. They are NEVER raised again. b. Those who asked for forgiveness while trying (with God's help) to obey Him - these He takes with Him to The City which He has prepared. c. Those who could not choose, because they lacked maturity or mental capacity, or information - these are not resurrected on this day. They - along with all the animals, are simply left DEAD. They remain DEAD for 1000 years. Infants and children who are still living on that day, and those who lack the mental capacity to choose, DO DIE at the Second Coming, but their death is NOT judgment death. It is not the "wrath of God". They will simply "go to sleep". a. Those confirmed in wickedness. b. Those confirmed in love for God. c. The REST 3. At the end of 1000 years, Jesus resurrects "the rest". . 4. They are taught by the redeemed who have become "priests of God and of Christ", who now reign on the earth. Some come to love the LORD, and His ways. Some are deceived by Satan (who has been loosed) and are confirmed in hatred of God. By then, they will constitute "nations in the four corners of the earth". 5. Those confirmed in hatred, come up as a great army to overthrow Christ who is ruling from Jerusalem. 6. The fire of God consumes them. 7. Once the earth is cleansed of those confirmed in hatred, the Holy City descends. Adventists most often say that the final destiny of a child is determined by the destination of his parents. Young children of the LOST are lost, and of the REDEEMED are saved. The father of the home then decides the eternal destiny of every young child within his home. Is THAT just ??? In this scenario, we are saved as families, or clans. Robert and Samie solve the problem of children and those ignorant thru not fault of their own, by saying they are "justified" and "in Christ", and will be given eternal life. I call that a "free pass" into the Kingdom, without them having to believe or to choose whom they will serve. Is THAT just ??? In this scenario, EVERYONE is saved, but those who reach mental maturity can opt out, if they reach that maturity before the Second Coming. In my scenario, everyone must be allowed to reach mental maturity, and receive the information needed, AND everyone must choose whom he/she will serve - either God because they love HIM, or Satan (and themselves). Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Does anyone here have ANOTHER scenario to solve the "problem" of young children, and those lacking mental capacity or information upon which to base belief. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) I don't think this is an especially helpful way of looking at the problem. Let's say for a moment, the law is not an issue. No the law is the issue!. The law cannot legally allow sinners to go to heaven. BTW, no one answered my question: How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Keep in mind that no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one! Edited May 9, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Three promises of the Word give me confidence that my wife's and my future are in the the kingdom of Heaven. 19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."...Matt 18 5he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing....John 15 …29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."....Matthew 11 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 No the law is the issue!. The law cannot legally allow sinners to go to heaven. BTW, no one answered my question: How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Keep in mind that no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one! God can erase the record of their sin. That way - it is AS IF they never sinned. When Jesus WON ownership of all human beings (dominion), He could request His Father do this. I will remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:34 KJV) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (Heb 8:12 NKJ) Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. (Psa 51:9 NKJ) Either you sins are blotted out, or your name is "blotted out". Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 God can erase the record of their sin. That way - it is AS IF they never sinned. When Jesus WON ownership of all human beings (dominion), He could request His Father do this. I will remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:34 KJV) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (Heb 8:12 NKJ) Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. (Psa 51:9 NKJ) Either you sins are blotted out, or your name is "blotted out". God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 I will remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:34 KJV) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (Heb 8:12 NKJ) Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. (Psa 51:9 NKJ) Either you sins are blotted out, or your name is "blotted out". No, no, no.....If you blot out sin you must get rid of the law. According to Matt chapter 5:18 "....until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law...." Now, how can God take believing sinners to heaven when the law clearly demands their death. Christ's death instead of the sinners does not legally answer the law. The law demands the death of the sinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) God can erase the record of their sin. That way - it is AS IF they never sinned. Really? So God can lie and state that we never sinned (past tense) and continue to sin (present tense)? Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Keep in mind that no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one! Again, how can God legally, within the framework of His Holy law, justify sinners and at the same time maintain justice and integrity to His law? If you can't answer this question then you do not understand the everlasting gospel. That infers the gospel you present is "another gospel", which is a false gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 No, no, no.....If you blot out sin you must get rid of the law. According to Matt chapter 5:18 "....until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law...." Now, how can God take believing sinners to heaven when the law clearly demands their death. Christ's death instead of the sinners does not legally answer the law. The law demands the death of the sinner. Robert I'm SURE you have an answer all prepared for us. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Again, how can God legally, within the framework of His Holy law, justify sinners and at the same time maintain justice and integrity to His law? If you can't answer this question then you do not understand the everlasting gospel. That infers the gospel you present is "another gospel", which is a false gospel. How about, GOD - the one who made the law, is OUTSIDE of that Law. He can do what HE chooses. The Law is for humans - not for God Himself. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 How about, GOD - the one who made the law, is OUTSIDE of that Law. He can do what HE chooses. The Law is for humans - not for God Himself. Then the Evangelicals have it right: Jesus nailed the law to the cross and did away with it.....If that's the case why did Jesus die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) He can do what HE chooses. Yes, but He can't sin. Titus 1:2 states "God... cannot lie" Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. RH May 7, 1901, Art. A, par. 9 Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Robert I'm SURE you have an answer all prepared for us. Yes, and I learned the gospel from reading the Apostle Paul.... Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Yes, but He can't sin. Titus 1:2 states "God... cannot lie" Then the Evangelicals have it right: Jesus nailed the law to the cross and did away with it.....If that's the case why did Jesus die? Robert, why don't you quit arguing. When we asked Jesus to wash our sins away (the breaking of the Law) He did what He promised. He washed them away. Or don't you believe His promises? …8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us....1 John 1 19He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea. 20You will give truth to Jacob And unchanging love to Abraham, Which You swore to our forefathers From the days of old....Micah 7 18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. ...Isaiah 1 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him....2 Corinthians 5 Now if you can explain how God the Son became a human babe and eventually my Savior, I'll attempt to explain further how not one jot or tittle will ever pass from the Law. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 They say that's the reason why Yahushua (well, they say "Jesus") deliberately broke the Sabbath and encouraged his disciples to do likewise. - joe I'm satisfied this indicates no Law of God that He wrote with His finger was ever or ever will be broken. …11And He said to them, "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12"How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand!" He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other.…Matthew 12 14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need....Hebrews 4 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 What does this have to do with being born justified? Are you suggesting that infants who died before experiencing Christian living would be unhappy in heaven? I think we can infer on the basis of both logic and inspiration that some infants would be happy in heaven, and others not, and that God will take all the ones who would be happy in heaven to heaven. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Legally, the law demands a righteous life, one without self-love. But for those who transgress it demands death, the 2nd death. The law is descriptive. It describes reality. Reality is that death is inseparable from sin. Sin is predicated on the principle of living for self. God alone is the source of life. If one cuts oneself off from God, one dies. Things cannot be otherwise than this, otherwise there would be beings cut off from God who could live. The law helps us to understand what sin is, but it isn't creating the reality that apart from God we die. What needs to happen is that we be reconciled to God. Edited May 10, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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