Supreme Court will hear Arguments: Gay Marriage= Sep. of Church N State

[Gregory Matthews]

Brotherly love, I have a real problem with statements that you make such as the following:

 

Were my compassion turns into pity for you would stem from you misleading yourself that you are fine with God without repentance. Instead of following God, you are tring to make God follow you by changing His wisdom into your own wisdom.

 

Yes, I could write you privately and express my concerns. However, as others have quoted you and responded, I believe that I need to make a public statement.

 

Such is judgmental.  It is not a problem for people to come to this forum and pass judgment on the validity of doctrinal statements and comment as to whether or not those statements are Biblical.  By coming here and publicly posting information about himself and his beliefs, Gay has opened himself up to that. 

 

However, statements such as I have quoted above pass judgment on his motive.  They pass judgment on his standing before God.  I do not believe that God has given you that role.  You may disagree.  In any case, I am concerned about you doing it here in this  forum.

 

I could remove all of those comments.  Up to now, I have not chosen to do so.  In part due to the fact that others have quoted and responded to them.

 

However, I may   come to the place where I will feel a need to monitor your post more closely.  In the meantime, I ask you to please be more careful in attacking the person, rather than the thought.

 

As this is a public comment, this goes for everyone else also.

[JoeMo]

Re: Coming out ministries -

There is a non-denominational ministry here in Denver called "Where Grace Abounds".  They comes alongside the church to help it minister to people with sexual and relational conflicts. They do not require that participants share its beliefs or belong to any religious organization.

From their website:

"Where Grace Abounds (WGA) exists to guide and support men and women who seek to understand sexuality and relationship, and to inspire all people to know and personally appropriate God’s plan for their sexuality and relationships.

WGA was born out of the need to fill the vacuum created between blanket acceptance and approval of sexual behavior of any kind and total condemnation of the sexual sinner as worse than any other.

In the breach between these two extremes; people are in conflict:

• In the Church, they are struggling silently with intense feelings of isolation–alone in their pain.
• In our culture, many are disillusioned or consider the Church irrelevant as a resource and help; yet, there is much disinformation and confusion surrounding the truth about what God (and the Church) might have to offer.
• In families, parents, siblings, spouses, and children, in pain look for a way to help their loved one.
• In the workplace, friends and co-workers are challenged in living out their faith amongst conflicting messages about sexuality from the culture and the church.
• In the professional community, counselors, educators and pastors are plagued by complex questions and find few resources that provide practical answers.

WGA bridges the gap for these people by providing an environment that they have not found elsewhere: safe places to explore their options, discuss their questions, and receive support in their process of healing."

 

I went there one night to here a man named Cyd or Sid (can't remember his last name); who was a national leader for ministries like WGA.  He was an amazing encouragement to those in the audience who were suffering from guilt and condemnation. 

[GayatfootofCross]

Brotherly love, I have a real problem with statements that you make such as the following:

 

"Were my compassion turns into pity for you would stem from you misleading yourself that you are fine with God without repentance. Instead of following God, you are tring to make God follow you by changing His wisdom into your own wisdom." - brotherly love

 

 

Yes, I could write you privately and express my concerns. However, as others have quoted you and responded, I believe that I need to make a public statement.

 

Such is judgmental.  It is not a problem for people to come to this forum and pass judgment on the validity of doctrinal statements and comment as to whether or not those statements are Biblical.  By coming here and publicly posting information about himself and his beliefs, Gay has opened himself up to that. 

 

However, statements such as I have quoted above pass judgment on his motive.  They pass judgment on his standing before God.  I do not believe that God has given you that role.  You may disagree.  In any case, I am concerned about you doing it here in this  forum.

 

I could remove all of those comments.  Up to now, I have not chosen to do so.  In part due to the fact that others have quoted and responded to them.

 

However, I may   come to the place where I will feel a need to monitor your post more closely.  In the meantime, I ask you to please be more careful in attacking the person, rather than the thought.

 

As this is a public comment, this goes for everyone else also.

 

 

 

 

 

 Gregory Mathews

 

I must say what brotherly love has done is what I and LGBTIQQAA have gotten THE whole life sanctioned in the Christian Culture, Jesus told me to Follow The Fruit.And when others see this from Christians you can be sure they think LGBTIQQAA as sub human not deserving of Dignity and Respect in their own life choices. What it really does is block The Kingdom. And to me that is what the Case before the Supreme Court is really addressing ( besides the Constitutionality of it).

 A more heinous sin than what two men do in the privacy of their own home. WE are not called to lord over anyone but to  love like Jesus on the CROSS! Show them Tthe Kingdom! Some would love to go if they see it in you!

 

And brotherly love I have two words regarding what Gregory Matthews shared .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

Re: Coming out ministries -

There is a non-denominational ministry here in Denver called "Where Grace Abounds".  They comes alongside the church to help it minister to people with sexual and relational conflicts. They do not require that participants share its beliefs or belong to any religious organization.

From their website:

"Where Grace Abounds (WGA) exists to guide and support men and women who seek to understand sexuality and relationship, and to inspire all people to know and personally appropriate God’s plan for their sexuality and relationships.

WGA was born out of the need to fill the vacuum created between blanket acceptance and approval of sexual behavior of any kind and total condemnation of the sexual sinner as worse than any other.

In the breach between these two extremes; people are in conflict:

• In the Church, they are struggling silently with intense feelings of isolation–alone in their pain.
• In our culture, many are disillusioned or consider the Church irrelevant as a resource and help; yet, there is much disinformation and confusion surrounding the truth about what God (and the Church) might have to offer.
• In families, parents, siblings, spouses, and children, in pain look for a way to help their loved one.
• In the workplace, friends and co-workers are challenged in living out their faith amongst conflicting messages about sexuality from the culture and the church.
• In the professional community, counselors, educators and pastors are plagued by complex questions and find few resources that provide practical answers.

WGA bridges the gap for these people by providing an environment that they have not found elsewhere: safe places to explore their options, discuss their questions, and receive support in their process of healing."

 

I went there one night to here a man named Cyd or Sid (can't remember his last name); who was a national leader for ministries like WGA.  He was an amazing encouragement to those in the audience who were suffering from guilt and condemnation. 

 

After decades of guilt, condemnation,isolation, and self loathing(to the point of committing suicide as a teen.. uhhh it didnt work) from within and the Church... A young Minister came into my life

and Spoke Words of Life in my soul. Has anyone ever known the worst things you ever did and looked into your eyes without condemnation? That is what JESUS does! It starts the healing!

The details take time and it doesn't always look like the way we think it should and definitely not in the Timing we with folded arms we think it should take. But it begins there!

 

What would it be like if every time LGBTIQQAA comes along and see all your faces with Non Condemnation on it?

[Gregory Matthews]

Gay said:

I must say what brotherly love has done is what I and LGBTIQQAA have gotten THE whole life. . .

 

I am aware of the truth to what you said above.  I cannot change the entire world.   But, I do have the power to make changes in this   small section of Club Adventist.  I will consider doing so, if I feel that it is needed.

[brotherly love]

Brotherly love, I have a real problem with statements that you make such as the following:

 

 

 

 

Yes, I could write you privately and express my concerns. However, as others have quoted you and responded, I believe that I need to make a public statement.

 

Such is judgmental.  It is not a problem for people to come to this forum and pass judgment on the validity of doctrinal statements and comment as to whether or not those statements are Biblical.  By coming here and publicly posting information about himself and his beliefs, Gay has opened himself up to that. 

 

However, statements such as I have quoted above pass judgment on his motive.  They pass judgment on his standing before God.  I do not believe that God has given you that role.  You may disagree.  In any case, I am concerned about you doing it here in this  forum.

 

I could remove all of those comments.  Up to now, I have not chosen to do so.  In part due to the fact that others have quoted and responded to them.

 

However, I may   come to the place where I will feel a need to monitor your post more closely.  In the meantime, I ask you to please be more careful in attacking the person, rather than the thought.

 

As this is a public comment, this goes for everyone else also.

 

I am somewhat involved with this topic, my wife is more directly involved though. In being involved with this issue, the first thing that I can correctly identify is the rainbow cross. This is the symbol of the gay agenda to validate the gay lifestyle with the cross. It is about gay pride and the cross. It is an agenda.

I would urge you to do the research before responding please.

You also let the poster claim I see a person who practices the gay lifestyle as sub-human, not deserving of dignity and respect for their life choices

-Could you quote me as claiming this or even believing this?

 

I must say what brotherly love has done is what I and LGBTIQQAA have gotten THE whole life sanctioned in the Christian Culture, Jesus told me to Follow The Fruit.And when others see this from Christians you can be sure they think LGBTIQQAA as sub human not deserving of Dignity and Respect in their own life choices.

 

Yet you have publically supported his words towards me

 

I am aware of the truth to what you said above.  I cannot change the entire world.   But, I do have the power to make changes in this   small section of Club Adventist.  I will consider doing so, if I feel that it is needed.

 

The responses of this poster have been emotive and follows the gay agenda to a tee. It is not about persecuting them-nobody on here is persecuting him-it is about re-writing the Bible to accept their lifestyle as othrodox. What I mean about "Orthodox" is that it is an acceptable lifestyle. I assure you Mr. Matthews, this topic will get switched and strawman argument if you dont look closely.

 

It is very similar to Christian Zionism-if a person criticises Israel at any time-they are deemed anti-Semites. This method does work, because it stirs emotions even though they are false accusations.

In the same fashion, if I say anything about a person promoting a gay agenda-it will switch to judgment or not loving a person. This is not the case at all. I am allowed to discern and then judge based upon the facts. The facts in this thread lead me to believe that this poster is pushing a gay agenda, this is much different than judging and condemning a gay person who is struggling with this.

We can proclaim our sins, and we should not be sharpening our knices when a person opens themselves up this way. This is not the case in this instance, this person is promoting his sin, and then telling the faithful that we have to accept this about him, or be unloving or bigots.

If you read closely, this is what is happening.

 

I have to give you the benefit of a doubt, maybe you have not had much experience with this agenda, and that would explain your responses.

 

You can support a person who is gay, but you cant support someone who is trying to validate a gay lifestyle that is in harmony with the teachings of the Bible.

 

There is a list of sins that we all have done in the New Testament, and the promise is that these things will hinder us from eternity. This is if we identify with them.

[Gregory Matthews]

^{My issue is that you have personalized your content well beyond what is appropriate.} 

 

^{Let me  give you an example:}

 

 

 

^{At the same time, imagine someone created a banner with "swingers at the cross" or "pornographers at the cross" and decorated the cross with symbols of those lifestyle choices.A person struggling with wrong choices would not create a banner with the title of "gay at the cross" and then create a rainbow cross that symbolizes a compatability with the cross and willful and ongoing practicing of this lifestyle.}

^{A person choosing to follow the Master Teacher Jesus Christ would be inspired to make a banner with "repentant gay at the cross" or "repentant swinger at the cross".}

^{You can mock me with emoticons with a hell and brimstone type preacher, but you are only condemning yourself. I assure you from the authority of scripture, you will experience eternal shame for your choices-not for struggling with your problems, but in justifying your problems as an acceptable lifesyle to honor God and trying to persuade others to accept your lifesyle as glory to God.}

 

^{You stated the above.  I took it out of public view as it was entirely inappropriate.  You were attacking the person and not debating the issues.  You made assumptions with not basis of fact.  This is the type of personalization that  I will remove.}

 

^{Since I have quoted it, in fairness to your I have brought your post back into public view.  That way people can see your entire statement in context.  I felt that In needed to do that in order to be fair to you.}

 

 

 

 

 

[bonnie]

For those that consider gay marriage a constitutional right and something that many SDA's seem to favor as showing christian behavior would you

1. Be in favor of having a legally married gay person openly living a gay lifestyle as elder in your church?

2. A teacher in our schools?

3 Perhaps as a pastor?

4 Legally married gay pathfinder leader?

5.Lesbian married  head deconness ?

Anyone that has held the above positions is guilty of sin yet they hold those positions,so is it unfair and unloving christians that say no to the above.

 

To be a true christian are you required to accept the gay agenda or at the very least keep your opinion to yourself?

[GayatfootofCross]

Dear brotherly love

 

you still don't know what your talking about  in regards about my life and how i live it nor how I stand before The LORD

that is the Judgement  Gregory Mathews is referring to.

I could copy and paste alot from you to show you.the 'ferinstances'.

 

But I wont.

God calls me to forgive.

and I do.

 

 

 

 

 

And my posts is not about homosexual acts not being a sin. I will never say that.

 

Its about Christians looking at LGBTIQQAA as JESUS does.

and that will bring healing and growth to the community.

Wow!

Your way is not working here to that end .

Try God's way.

 

GBU! more

[Gregory Matthews]

Bonnie:  There are two issues that relate to rights:

 

1)  Churches, under our Constitution and the law, have the right to determine who they will allow in as members, whom they will remove from membership and whom they will place in positions of leadership.  I support that right to include establishing whatever standards they wish to have.

 

2) The right of citizens of this country to be treated equally.  On that basis, I support the right of the homosexual citizens of this country to the equality of treatment that other citizens are given.

 

AS a nation, our Constitution and system of laws is based in part that the State should not govern its citizens in respect to religious matters and therefore should not impose any set of religious beliefs on its  citizens.  The teaching of religious values should be left to the churches.

[bonnie]

Bonnie:  There are two issues that relate to rights:

 

1)  Churches, under our Constitution and the law, have the right to determine who they will allow in as members, whom they will remove from membership and whom they will place in positions of leadership.  I support that right to include establishing whatever standards they wish to have.

 

2) The right of citizens of this country to be treated equally.  On that basis, I support the right of the homosexual citizens of this country to the equality of treatment that other citizens are given.

 

AS a nation, our Constitution and system of laws is based in part that the State should not govern its citizens in respect to religious matters and therefore should not impose any set of religious beliefs on its  citizens.  The teaching of religious values should be left to the churches.

I am well aware of the above. Did learn that in school.

However that is not what I asked. The OP has made some statements that clearly indicate his condemnation of "those Christians" that don't accept that gay marriage should be placed on the same level as traditional marriage.

.

 

If our church studied into the matter more deeply like our Church forefathers/mothers regarding the State of the Dead or The Sabbath ..Many may come a way with a new understanding.

Hey!

like they did after 1844!

 

The above indicates that if we only study more we will come to realize we are wrong as to our belief in homosexuality being an abomination in God's eyes.

It is also plain that if you do not agree with the OP that means homosexuals are viewed as subhumans and those that maintain this lifestyle is wrong they are less than they should be. After all what about all the other sins? If you oppose gay marriage does that mean that all other sins are immaterial and that is the only one that counts?

How is denying the same rights and privileges to gay SDA  members as we do others being fair? I know we as a denomination have that right, so far, but having a right does not necessarily make right. We willingly grant membership to other sinners so what right do we have to deny gay sinners?

 that should never have been allowed to become pastors, I have no doubt that there is a gay man out there that could do a wonderful job as pastor for most part. Better than some we have. Why approve one sinner and deny another?

 

AS a nation, our Constitution and system of laws is based in part that the State should not govern its citizens in respect to religious matters and therefore should not impose any set of religious beliefs on its  citizens.  The teaching of religious values should be left to the churches.

Until someone of the gay community wants me to provide something that is against my religious belief and then the state is right there to step on my right to what I believe.

But aside from civil law the gay community is not willing to accept the belief of others without trying to ruin a business or hold them up for ridicule. Any business that makes the mistake of believing they have a right to a religious belief that differs from the gay community finds itself boycotted or worse.

All thru this topic the meaning is quite clear and it is something you and others accept willingly. Those that do not bend to the will of gay demands is somehow less than they should be.

It is  possible to hold a view against legalizing gay marriage and treat gays as we should. As you know I am good friends with a lesbian couple and have been for many years. They don't demand I agree with gay marriage as a condition of our friendship. Nor would they insult me or place me in a difficult situation by inviting me to their wedding or providing anything for the celebration. We have celebrated birthdays together etc. No problem, I don't cross the line by berating them or condemning them. Nor do they by demanding that I accept as right something they know I can't. However they know if they ask if I believe it is right what the answer will be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

th

[bonnie]

Just to make sure it is plain.

As long as all sin, pastors, teachers, straight, gay how do you justify a straight pastor that we know has sinned and deny a gay pastor we know has sinned?

Do you believe homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes as well as other sins?  I agree they have a right to live their lives as anyone else.  Their religious right ends when they have to trample on mine to get what they want.

[GayatfootofCross]

"If our church studied into the matter more deeply like our Church forefathers/mothers regarding the State of the Dead or The Sabbath ..Many may come a way with a new understanding.

Hey!

like they did after 1844!"  - me

 

 Here ^    ..I am not talking about accepting sin. Sin misses  the Mark (at least on definition). God showed us the Ideal in the Garden of Eden.

The Sabbath and the Marriage of Man and Woman. Husband to love one Woman for life as Christ loves the church (to spell it out more).

Everything  else tragically misses the mark

 

What I am saying  ,in the above quote, is to look deeply into the matter beyond  the cultural lenses of antiquity,context and understood biases. It looks cut and dry all these years just like Sunday keeping and hell or heaven right after death.

But God bid 'look closer'! ...  and our Church did! And I see that finally  happening now on this issue.

It is so exciting!,,, and BTW , I said .. some may come to different conclusions which implies some may not and that is very understandable.

 

But still the Sep. of Church and State is very much part of our own church history.

Forcing others religious views/theology on us!

To lord over.

It is like that saying that went around awhile back "I may not like what you say but I will defend your right to say it"

 

 

Please forgive my  poor wordsmithing Bonnie.

I hope it is clear now.

[bonnie]

"If our church studied into the matter more deeply like our Church forefathers/mothers regarding the State of the Dead or The Sabbath ..Many may come a way with a new understanding.

Hey!

like they did after 1844!"  - me

 

 Here ^    ..I am not talking about accepting sin. Sin misses  the Mark (at least on definition). God showed us the Ideal in the Garden of Eden.

The Sabbath and the Marriage of Man and Woman. Husband to love one Woman for life as Christ loves the church (to spell it out more).

Everything  else tragically misses the mark

 

What I am saying  ,in the above quote, is to look deeply into the matter beyond  the cultural lenses of antiquity,context and understood biases. It looks cut and dry all these years just like Sunday keeping and hell or heaven right after death.

But God bid 'look closer'! ...  and our Church did! And I see that finally  happening now on this issue.

It is so exciting!,,, and BTW , I said .. some may come to different conclusions which implies some may not and that is very understandable.

 

But still the Sep. of Church and State is very much part of our own church history.

Forcing others religious views/theology on us!

To lord over.

It is like that saying that went around awhile back "I may not like what you say but I will defend your right to say it"

 

 

Please forgive my  poor wordsmithing Bonnie.

I hope it is clear now.

Personally I think you should be complimented on your word smithing talent. The best I have seen for awhile

 

No need to explain this...What I am saying  ,in the above quote, is to look deeply into the matter beyond  the cultural lenses of antiquity, context and understood biases. It looks cut and dry all these years just like Sunday keeping and hell or heaven right after death. It is perfectly clear.

I don't anticipate my antiquated, biased belief on Sunday keeping and homosexuality will change anytime soon

[GayatfootofCross]

Personally I think you should be complimented on your word smithing talent. The best I have seen for awhile

 

No need to explain this...What I am saying  ,in the above quote, is to look deeply into the matter beyond  the cultural lenses of antiquity, context and understood biases. It looks cut and dry all these years just like Sunday keeping and hell or heaven right after death. It is perfectly clear.

I don't anticipate my antiquated, biased belief on Sunday keeping and homosexuality will change anytime soon

 

Thank you for saying that. I flunked English grammar. I must drive some crazy.

But I was good in Drama class

 BTW ..Looking at all your posts (that I saw)I know  I like you already.

 

God has taught me that we cannot compel  conscience.

Just to look closer in the WORD to enlarge the Wonderful Wonderful Picture of God!

 

He sends sunshine and the rain to both the Righteous and the Wicked!

Man! What a GOD!

[brotherly love]

^{My issue is that you have personalized your content well beyond what is appropriate.} 

 

^{Let me  give you an example:}

 

 

 

 

 

^{You stated the above.  I took it out of public view as it was entirely inappropriate.  You were attacking the person and not debating the issues.  You made assumptions with not basis of fact.  This is the type of personalization that  I will remove.}

 

^{Since I have quoted it, in fairness to your I have brought your post back into public view.  That way people can see your entire statement in context.  I felt that In needed to do that in order to be fair to you.}

 

 

 

 

 

 

This was not inappropriate given the context of the poster "gayatthecross" comments to many other posts. I will supply a few:

 

teach us here to believe that practicing homosexuals are not sinning?

oh heavens no

everyone is sinning including practicing homosexuals ? 1 John 1:8

so u wont see me say anything like that

 

The above statement is faulty, as a practicing homosexual who professes Christ is not following Him. You can't tbe a practicing murderer,adulterer,pedophile or a host of other things and be right with God.

 

Here is the switch....

 

heterosexuality is not sainthood

purity of heart is

 

Lets keep purusing. If this is about seperation of church and state-there sure is much in reference to the churches and bibles view of gay marriage. The topic swings from seperation of church and state then to the Bible. This is a bait and switch tactic.

 

Well for me this gay marriage is about Sep. of Church n State, in America anyways.

 

Then it switches to church

 

We SDAs  don't want a Sunday keeping church brand of theology forced on us

just like gays don't want the Christian/Judeo form  of theology about God and marriage (albeit since antiquity) forced on them.

 

its OK if the mainline Christianity comes a huntin for the others as long as they dont come a huntin for us (Sabbath Keepers) is not reflecting Jesus

 

Now the Bible (not in context to the topic)

 

and one more thing

in Matt 20:25 it calls us all Christians not to lord over people

we cannot win souls by Lording overs others most personal decisions

 

-You cant win souls by accepting behavior and choices by those who are trying to normalize them against the Bibles teachings on how to follow God

-It then goes to separation of church and state

 

Uhhh ..whats the Name of this Thread?

Supreme Court will hear Arguments: Gay Marriage= Sep. of Church N State

 

That is the end of page one. This continues in page two.

 

the bottom line is there are people who don't believe in the Bible's instructions

or at least the way most churches teaches

That is to be Respected and Honored.

by our Society and Nation.

 

Notice the bait and switch. Above is the state, then the same stance switches to the church

 

If our church studied into the matter more deeply like our Church forefathers/mothers regarding the State of the Dead or The Sabbath ..Many may come a way with a new understanding.

Hey!

like they did after 1844!

 

The same bait and switch in his next comments

 

and many churches in Christianity is finally looking closer into the matter and coming up with different conclusions finally.

and amen to loving GOD and following HIM wherever He leads ..not others prehistoric lenses.

 

GOD bless you!

this thread is still about Separation of Church N State

not about us being made comfortable

 

 

I am not asking for compassion or emotions.

I am asking for a decision on how on Christians look upon LGBTIQQAA ..at least in this thread for now.

JESUS does fit the calling .. we must too if we wanna go home.

 

-If he is not asking for compassion-then what is he asking for? He is asking that this lifestyle be accepted.

 

I must say what brotherly love has done is what I and LGBTIQQAA have gotten THE whole life sanctioned in the Christian Culture, Jesus told me to Follow The Fruit.And when others see this from Christians you can be sure they think LGBTIQQAA as sub human not deserving of Dignity and Respect in their own life choices. What it really does is block The Kingdom. And to me that is what the Case before the Supreme Court is really addressing ( besides the Constitutionality of it).

 A more heinous sin than what two men do in the privacy of their own home. WE are not called to lord over anyone but to  love like Jesus on the CROSS! Show them Tthe Kingdom! Some would love to go if they see it in you!

 

If you want to discuss inappropriate personal content-this would be a good place to start. I did not in any way claim,state or believe that a person who is a homosexual is subhuman. Yet he claims that this is what I would have to believe. These are his own words.

 

Yet again he baits and switches back and forth from church sand state

 

What it really does is block The Kingdom. And to me that is what the Case before the Supreme Court is really addressing ( besides the Constitutionality of it).

 

Can you or anyone else back up with scripture that any of my words are equal to or greater (more heinous) than a person who is active in a homosexual lifestyle, and is pushing a secular humanist agenda into the church?

 

 A more heinous sin than what two men do in the privacy of their own home. WE are not called to lord over anyone but to  love like Jesus on the CROSS! Show them Tthe Kingdom! Some would love to go if they see it in you!

 

If you are to research the colors in the rainbow flag of the gay agenda, each color has a meaning, and it is to normalize the gay lifestyle in the Christian community. The bait and switch is to make us look as hatemongers if we dont accept it as a part of a progressive lifesyle in a church. The common theme is that everyone sins, and this is just another sin to accept. Again, i will have to repeat myself, I am not against gays-they can do as they please. The issue here is a gay agenda. This is a big difference than a person who is struggling with it.

 

Are you familiar with the tactics of this agenda?

[CoAspen]

We are familiar with your tactics.....spin...spin...spin...castigate...castigate.

 

PS Don't be afraid, you can't catch 'gayness'.

[GayatfootofCross]

We are familiar with your tactics.....spin...spin...spin...castigate...castigate.

 

PS Don't be afraid, you can't catch 'gayness'.

 

brotherly love

Thank you for quoting me in an intensive exhaustive manner. My Buddy is detail oriented and I see the bigger picture. So it was quite a post for me.

Repeating my words is ok by me.

 

 

And what you see as a bait and switch theory is simply addressing two things here that people post

The Sep. of Church N State for LGBTIQQAA and Christians and rights

and Christians responding to LGBTIQQAA acts and or relationships

 Forgive me ... My mind goes back and forth as I share.

I tried to stay on topic but a few kind people were throwing other things in the arena now.

Imagine that!

So it was Three topics now here!

 

And I was trying to appeal to a Spiritual Law reflected in God's heart. (I am talking to Christians after all)

The cruelest trick!

 

So much to respond to.

 

And really whatever you think about all this and all I say

and how offended you are

has nothing to do with my intent.

I am sorry you take it all that way.

 

 The way you held a magnifying glass to my  my posts are on par with  A Catcher in the Rye paperback in a suspects back pocket.

 

well... some will get the reference here.

 

GBU brotherly love

do stick around and share more..

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

Mr Love, I'm not sure of the reason for the vehement dissection of Gay's posts....I think you're misrepresenting him.  You don't know if he is a practicing homosexual person, or not.  I don't think he has some sort of "gay agenda," unless it's "Gay's agenda".....  What I get out of Gay's writing is that the LGBT et al group of individuals would like to be treated as Christ treated all sinners... with compassion and respect.  He's not asking everyone to abandon their beliefs and give their personal blessings on gay marriage.

 

Because of the beliefs of many Christians get juxtaposed with sexuality and concurrently with marriage, the related topic of separation of Church and State is very apropos.  Should someone be legally denied marriage based on sexual preferences?  Should surgically altered transgender individuals be refused marriage?  What about the hermaphrodites who are born with both sets of genitalia?

 

There are so many variables.  I don't know how the legal system could be fair to one and all, unless all legal "rituals" (such as marriage) were available to one and all..

 

Or maybe I'm just whistling in the wind...  

[Gregory Matthews]

Brotherly Love said in post # 67:

 

 

 

This was not inappropriate given the context of the poster "gayatthecross" comments to many other posts. I will supply a few.

 

I am not here to debate you.  I informed you that in this  section such statements on your part, as I cited, are inappropriate and that if you continue to post such, I will have to deal with that.  That is the bottom line.  I have cut you slack.  I have attempted to be fair to you.  You may disagree with that.  That is your choice.   I am not here to debate you on that.

 

Your choice is whether or not  to comply.

[brotherly love]

We are familiar with your tactics.....spin...spin...spin...castigate...castigate.

 

PS Don't be afraid, you can't catch 'gayness'.

 

Can you substantiate both of these claims against me with facts?

What you have posted here is an emotive comment designed to stir up peoples emotions

[brotherly love]

Mr Love, I'm not sure of the reason for the vehement dissection of Gay's posts....I think you're misrepresenting him.  You don't know if he is a practicing homosexual person, or not.  I don't think he has some sort of "gay agenda," unless it's "Gay's agenda".....  What I get out of Gay's writing is that the LGBT et al group of individuals would like to be treated as Christ treated all sinners... with compassion and respect.  He's not asking everyone to abandon their beliefs and give their personal blessings on gay marriage.

 

Because of the beliefs of many Christians get juxtaposed with sexuality and concurrently with marriage, the related topic of separation of Church and State is very apropos.  Should someone be legally denied marriage based on sexual preferences?  Should surgically altered transgender individuals be refused marriage?  What about the hermaphrodites who are born with both sets of genitalia?

 

There are so many variables.  I don't know how the legal system could be fair to one and all, unless all legal "rituals" (such as marriage) were available to one and all..

 

Or maybe I'm just whistling in the wind...  

 

I wont comment on my so called misrepresentation until someone gives proof-not accusations or strawman theories. I supplied proof of an agenda, the onus is on you to also supply proof.

 The lines you are blurring is one of toleration and acceptance. Same sex sexuality is already tolerated, and those in the minority that would physically assault them would fall under hate crime legislation of many countries.

 

Should someone be legally denied marriage based on sexual preferences?  Should surgically altered transgender individuals be refused marriage?  What about the hermaphrodites who are born with both sets of genitalia?

 

I don't think you understand the issue. You have bought into personal relativism-you cant run a society this way.

 

Yes, you can deny marriage based on sexual preference. Should marriage be denied in cases of incest? If you buy into individual relativism, then this has to go also. What about bisexual multiple partner marriages? What about polygamy? All these prohibitions would have to be done away with also. It may not create the fire storm as same sex marriages, but the courts would have to accept every consenting marriage based on case law.

 

As for your hermaphrodites who are born with both genders. This is very simple. you have blurred a physical trait. This one being a medical problem. we are born with physical traits and the most distinct and sacred of these traits is being born male or female. The next physical trait is what our skin and hair color is.

a hermaphrodite is born with a mixture of these physical traits, and it is a medical problem. Just like siamese twins. This would be a horrid situation, but a hermaphrodite is not a behavior-it is a physical trait that is an abnormality.

The birth of a few hermaphrodites does not redefine our traits as male and female as a whole.

What you have done is blurred the lines of a physical trait and a behavior.

[Gregory Matthews]

Deleted.  I changed my mind.  

[JoeMo]

Brotherly says:

"In being involved with this issue, the first thing that I can correctly identify is the rainbow cross. This is the symbol of the gay agenda to validate the gay lifestyle with the cross. It is about gay pride and the cross. It is an agenda."

Hmmm. I thought it was an attempt by LGBT believers to reconcile themselves to Christ; and break off the judgement and condemnation heaped upon them by the evil one and many of the "saints".  It doesn't matter whether or not they are accepted by man-made religion; what matters is whether or not they are accepted by Christ.  He died for my sins and theirs; and I see no reason why God should forgive my sins and give me the grace to overcome if he doesn't do the same for all people.  In condemning an LGBT lifestyle, we risk condemning ourselves.  Although some of our sins may be more socially acceptable (at least in religious circles), they are nonetheless sins; making us just as liable to condemnation as anyone else.  I don't buy the theory that Christian gays are celebrating their life style.  They are celebrating the fact that that - just like heterosexuals - they have access to a Savior who loves them.  If a congregation exists to exclude the LGBT community rather than nurture them in the love and grace of the Savior,  they shouldn't call themselves Christian.

 

GAY - please advise me if I am off base here.

[brotherly love]

Brotherly says:

"In being involved with this issue, the first thing that I can correctly identify is the rainbow cross. This is the symbol of the gay agenda to validate the gay lifestyle with the cross. It is about gay pride and the cross. It is an agenda."

Hmmm. I thought it was an attempt by LGBT believers to reconcile themselves to Christ; and break off the judgement and condemnation heaped upon them by the evil one and many of the "saints".  It doesn't matter whether or not they are accepted by man-made religion; what matters is whether or not they are accepted by Christ.  He died for my sins and theirs; and I see no reason why God should forgive my sins and give me the grace to overcome if he doesn't do the same for all people.  In condemning an LGBT lifestyle, we risk condemning ourselves.  Although some of our sins may be more socially acceptable (at least in religious circles), they are nonetheless sins; making us just as liable to condemnation as anyone else.  I don't buy the theory that Christian gays are celebrating their life style.  They are celebrating the fact that that - just like heterosexuals - they have access to a Savior who loves them.  If a congregation exists to exclude the LGBT community rather than nurture them in the love and grace of the Savior,  they shouldn't call themselves Christian.

 

GAY - please advise me if I am off base here.

​First of all, religion is how we relate to God. As long as it can be substantiated from the bible reasonably-this is how we relate to God. Morality is how we relate to each other. A gayhater-Christian is an oxymoron in the same sense as a gay-Christian. Both are incompatible as an identity with God

A church that won't allow a practicing gay person access to them should not call themselves christian.This is true. In the same light, a person who wraps themselves up in a symbol of being gay also should not call themselves Christian. Their new identity is with Jesus-not with their sin.

The poster "gay" supplied a website called "coming out ministries" and I agree with their ministry as they speak of their relationship with Jesus and how He brought them out of their lifestyle. This is commendable!

 Have you done any research on the rainbow cross or rainbow fish? It may contain most of the language you use, but it is a symbol of being gay affirmative. This is celebrating for being gay and thanking Him for it.