"Origins"...what a joke!

[John317]

I agree with you but we have to admit that many of these scientists you listed would probably not be creationists if living today.

I believe God created the world as we know it in seven 24 hour days only because the Bible tells me so.

If we didn't have the Bible, I would no doubt join those who say the earth developed over a much longer period of time. I have no problem confessing that I have faith, or confidence, in the Bible's view of things.

My study of the Bible leads me to believe that the Bible can be trusted, not because science tells me it is correct but simply because I have found it to be God's inspired Word to me.

I don't place my faith in science, or in the scientific method, but in God and in His Word. Jim

[Dr. Shane]

"Evolutionary ideas were not invented by Darwin. Some of the ancient philosophers before Christ — such as Empedocles (d. 435), Democritus (d. 370), Epicurus (d. 270) and Lucretius (d. 55) — had evolutionary ideas that life arose spontaneously and that different life forms arose from one another. The ‘great chain of being’ idea pervaded English society well before Darwin came on the scene. In fact, Darwin’s grandfather, Erasmus, wrote about evolutionary notions of beginnings.

There were plenty of atheists before Darwin and they had to have some naturalistic notion of beginnings (or try not to think about it, which many do today). Darwin just gave atheism greater intellectual respectability by providing what seemed to many at the time, ignorant as they were of the incredible inner workings of even the simplest bacterium, to be a coherent framework for biological naturalism (nature is all there is). Darwin was seen as countering William Paley’s watchmaker argument — that an intricately integrated watch must have an intelligent designer, so, by analogy, must living things, which are even more complex."

[John317]

I seriously doubt anyone who is an evolutionist is a Sabbath-keeper and believes in Christ's High Priestly ministry and in His soon coming. Jim

[Robert]

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Bravus said:

...the only two available alternatives are literal seven day creationism with a short age of the earth on one hand and atheistic evolutionism on the other.

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Hmmm? I don't remember saying anything about "a short age of the earth"! Here's my understanding:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep....3 Then God said, “Let there be light”

When was "the beginning"? I don't know! The Bible doesn't say. Yet it says God created the heavens and the earth. The Hebrew word for "heavens" suggest many things such as the sky or the visible universe, etc.

I must rule out the sky because in verse 2 the earth was formless and void. Void of what? Everything except the earth's foundation.

Personally I believe Moses had in mind the planets in our solar system, including the moons when he used the word "heavens". Look at the state of our neighboring planets and their voidless forms! Perhaps this was the state of the earth before God started creating life.

So perhaps after zillions of years God decided to create life on this rock void of living matter. The first thing He created was "light"! That suggests the sun. How many days did it take God to do that?

Verse 5: "And the evening and the morning were the first day."

So the foundation of the earth might be very old, but that does not negate God furnishing our world with life. According to Moses, it took God six days. Then God rested -- meaning He was finished with His perfect creation.

No evolution here....

Rob

[John317]

There are probably tens of millions of people who would say they believe in both evolution and in a Creator God. But I doubt there are many, if any, Sabbath-keeping Adventists who believe in the evolutionary theory. If I am wrong, I would like to know.

I used to belong to a communist organization that was militantly evolutionistic and, therefore, atheistic. I never met anyone in that organization that believed in the Sabbath or in the Second Coming. On the contrary, everyone I met there ridiculed anyone who believed in the Bible, even though they themselves had almost never read the Bible except for the purpose of finding something to criticize. Their favorite saying was that there is as much reason to believe in God as there is to believe in Santa.

By the way, the Presidential candidate in that organization told me personally that if elected she would work to eventually eliminate religious freedom in the U.S.A. Thank God she was not elected.

[Robert]

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Clio said:

The obedience part comes in not judging another person's walk with Abba...and whether or not they...

or allowing their faith to "erode".

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"Judging another person's walk"? No, warning:

Titus 3:9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels over the law, for they are unprofitable and futile. 1o Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Evolution is a divisive tool!

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That's not your place to judge, and it's certainly not your place to compare anyone to Lucifer and the choices

he

made.

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I am warning [not judging]....Big difference. Lucifer doubted God....Evoltion creates doubt in God's Word. See the analogy?

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"Judge not, lest you be judged."

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Out of context!!! That phrase belongs to judging one's performance. So again, tangent....

I am concerned about those who might buy into believing this evolution [censored]! Once they question God's Word on creation, why not the resurrection? It happens....

Think about it! In creation "God said...and there was light". In the resurrection God will say, "Come forth" and there you will stand instantaneously. How many things will one question until there's nothing to believe in? Therefore this garbage called "evolution" is designed to ruin the faith of the believers. That's Satan's work!

And BTW, legalism is also a tool of the devil....

[John317]

Please explain, then, the basis for an evolutionist to keep the Sabbath. No doubt there are some who do as you say, but I would like to hear an explanation that makes sense and is consistent with the Bible. It would be good also to hear what these same SDAs have to say about what Ellen White said in regard to the Sabbath and evolutionary theory. Jim

[Robert]

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John317 said:

Please explain, then, the basis for an evolutionist to keep the Sabbath.

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There isn't one....But the Sabbath it really attacks is tied to the gospel.

You see when God finished His work on creation week He rested. Does that imply that He started working the 1st day of the week? NO....His rest was eternal! At the end of the 6th day God was finished because His work was perfect and it was complete.

Ah...but Satan, by getting Adam, ruined the meaning of God's rest. No longer can it be said that the Sabbath of creation symbolizes God's perfect creation. So keeping the Sabbath as it is tied to creation is meaningless this side of the fall.

That does not infer that God is not the creator or that He didn't create this world, although now fallen, in six days.

So what does evolution really attack? God's finished work of redemption. Go to Heb 4:4

• "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest [the gospel] still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” [Canaan was a type of rest] [:"red"]And yet his work [of redemption] has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.” [:"black"]

Please note that the Apostle Paul validates God's rest on the 7th-day of creation!

Let's skip to His conclusion:

9 There remains, therefore, a Sabbath-rest [a keeping Sabbath] for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest [accepts the gospel] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his [work of redemption in Christ Jesus].

You see if you destroy the creation Sabbath, through evolution, then you destroy the analogy between it and redemption Sabbath. The two are linked.

So unbelief in creation week, just as it reads, will eventually lead to unbelief in the gospel as linked to the Sabbath of redemption!

[John317]

I can't imagine that there is a direct connection between belief in evolutionary theory and Sabbath-keeping. I am certain that if someone keeps the Sabbath, he keeps it despite his evolutionary beliefs and not because of them. A Sabbath-keeping evolutionist is strong evidence that people's practices and beliefs are not always consistent or logical. Can anyone show that a person keeps the Sabbath because he is an evolutionist, in the same way that I can show a man keeps the keeps the Sabbath because he believes in the Bible's view of creation? Jim

[John317]

"9 There remains, therefore, a Sabbath-rest [a keeping Sabbath] for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest [accepts the gospel] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his [work of redemption in Christ Jesus]."

It seems to me that this verse is saying that those who truly accept the Gospel have an additional reason to keep the Sabbath this side of the cross in that their rest is a reminder of how God rested from his work of creation on the 7th day and of how that rest prefigured his work of redemption in Jesus Christ.

None of this, of course, can be harmonized with evolutionary theory, at least as far as I have been able make things out. Jim

[John317]

No doubt there are evolutionists who believe God made the universe. But what is at issue here is whether those people are Sabbath-keeping Adventists whose beliefs are tied directly to their understanding of how the world and human beings came into being through evolutionary processes. I would love to hear the argument made by an evolutionist for the Fall, the Atonement, Righteousness by faith, the Sabbath, the High Priesthood of Christ, the Second Coming, and the writings of Ellen White. Jim

[Bravus]

So, Rob, the people who believe the entire universe was created 6000-odd years ago, based on slightly different readings of the same texts you're using, are plain wrong?

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

those theories aren't mere flights of fancy. They are based upon demonstrable and verifiable facts.

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And such are the conclusions of the members of the body of Christ. One major difference between the unbelieving (in God) scientists and the believer in Christ is that unbelieving scientists let their faith lie in partial knowledge substantiated by those with conclusions based on partial knowledge, while the trusting believing Christian admits to a partial knowledge that will one day be completed and substantiated by the Person Who is not deficient in either wisdom or knowledge.

[:"red"] "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know...." [/] 1 Cor 13:12 KJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

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Bravus said:

So, Rob, the people who believe the entire universe was created 6000-odd years ago, based on slightly different readings of the same texts you're using, are plain wrong?

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I don't buy into a 6000-year-old earth, but I do buy into a literal 7-day creation. The first is speculative...the latter, Biblical.

[bevin]

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Those "so-called scientists" and the products of their thinking are the ones who are going to save your behind should you wind up in the hospital with cancer or heaven forbid, get into a terrible car accident and rip your bones to shreds. Seems you don't have any problem letting their "so-called" explanations of things prevail when it comes to medicine. Where do you think they developed those theories -- from being satisfied with "oh, God spoke and everything just magickally appeared!"

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Well written, Nico

I am a Christian who believes in both the basic outline of the theory of evolution, and the basic tenants of Christianity - specifically

• the honesty of my Lord
• the soon return of my Lord
• the value of God's gift of a day of rest
• the value of books written by other Christian's with whom God has interacted
• special divine protection and leading over a specific collection of such writings

Let us go through the basic tenets of christianity.

1 - Love your neighbor as yourself

This encapsulates many things including (a) don't misrepresent the truth, ( actively help them, and © allow them the same freedoms that you value

2 - Love God with all your heart

This encapsulates the existence of God, and the positive relationship between Him and us.

God gave us minds and eyes. These eyes and minds read books and see the world, think about the books and the think about the world.

When I do this, I find

(1) overwhelming physical evidence for a very old earth with life on it for millions of years,

(2) evidence - by no means overwhelming, but instead quiet and internal - of a God who wants to be involved with me

(3) overwhelming evidence for a very human impact on the activities and organizations that people form as a result of their dealings with God - the books that they write to describe God's interactions with them, the oral traditions, the communal activities and selection of leadership.

Some people need certainty and are fearful for their future and the future of others. They cling to their beliefs like a drowning man clinging to a life-jacket. They like simplicity - and it does not matter whether it corresponds to reality.

Others, including myself, believe that God would not create such a huge deception, and instead see the human impact as the cause of the disconnect between the natural world and the documents that have come down to us over the centuries.

We test those documents, and find that

(a) they speak of the same God we hear - loving, honest, powerful

( they also carry the misunderstandings of millenia

So we end up with a christianity that in all fundamentals is the same - including many of the lifestyle factors. But it is different in that we are prepared to fix the mistakes of earlier generations. The evidence that persuades me was not available to Paul or EGW - faced with difference evidence of course they reached different conclusions.

But beware of guessing what EGW might do faced with today's evidence. She let independent evidence and thinking take her a long way from her childhood beliefs. I think she would probably be an evolutionist. Paul, I am sure, would be. He also let evidence take him a long way from his childhood beliefs.

Maybe we should all be more like them - ready to change our minds based on evidence from the world around us, rather than like the pharisees and catholics and the protestants - clinging to our misunderstandings of generations long gone made with less knowlege.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

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Maybe we should all be more like them - ready to change our minds based on evidence from the world around us

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Sounds like the serpant talking to Eve. "Did God really tell you not to eat of this fruit? Look at me, I ate of it and now I can talk. Trust the world around you. Trust what you can see and touch. We cannot place too much trust in the Word of God."

Faith is trusting in what we cannot see and beliving is what we do not understand. (Hebrews 8:1)

[Robert]

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Maybe we should all be more like them - ready to change our minds....

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Nice work, Bevin. But I am not convinced because you are taking yourself outside the Bible to formulate your faith.

Rob

[bevin]

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you are taking yourself outside the Bible to formulate your faith.

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Where did Adam, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and Paul get their faith? Obviously not from the Bible because it did not exist then...

They got it from studying the evidence of their senses. That evidence included the writings of earlier and contemporary followers of the Living God. This evidence was included that of the natural world.

"Go to the ant, thou sluggard, consider her ways..."

"Consider the lilys of the field..."

/Bevin

[Robert]

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Robet said:

Quote:

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you are taking yourself outside the Bible to formulate your faith.

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[bevin:] Where did Adam, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and Paul get their faith? Obviously not from the Bible because it did not exist then...

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Directly from God!

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They got it from studying the evidence of their senses.

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No, they got it from God. Read the Bible [that's how I knew this]!

Now what did you say? "They got it [truth] from the evidence of their senses"?

Hmmm....I need more Bible: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

One of the paths to the heart/mind is through the senses....

Good try,

Rob

[bevin]

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Hmmm....I need more Bible:

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Indeed you do. There are numerous texts in the book that you follow that advise you to consider things other than are in that book. The Lord, and the authors of the Bible, apparently do not share your distrust of senses and mind.

A brief smattering of samples follows...

/Bevin

Judges 19:30. And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: [:"red"]consider of it, take advice[/], and speak your minds.

1 Samuel 12:24. Only fear the Lord, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for [:"red"]consider how great things he hath done for you[/].

Job 1:8. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou [:"red"]considered my servant Job[/], that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 23:15. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I [:"red"]consider[/], I am afraid of him.

Job 34:27. Because they turned back from him, and [:"red"]would not consider any of his ways[/]:

Job 37:14. Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.

Psalms 8:3. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psalms 48:13. Mark ye well her bulwarks, consider her palaces; that ye may tell it to the generation following.

Psalms 64:9. And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.

Psalms 77: 5. I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.

Proverbs 6: 6. Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:

Proverbs 21: 12. The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

Proverbs 23: 1. When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

Proverbs 24: 30. I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;

31. And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.

32. Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.

Eccl 4: 1. So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Isaiah 5: 12. And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Isaiah 41:20. That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the Lord hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Jeremiah 9: 17. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Consider ye, and call for the mourning women, that they may come; and send for cunning women, that they may come:

Ezekial 12:3. Therefore, thou son of man, prepare thee stuff for removing, and remove by day in their sight; and thou shalt remove from thy place to another place in their sight: it may be they will consider, though they be a rebellious house.

Ezekial 18:28. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Haggai 1:5. Now therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; Consider your ways.

Matt 7: 3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mark 6: 52. For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.

Luke 12:24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

Acts 12: 11. And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.

12. And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

2 Tim 2: 7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

[Robert]

Man...what a tangent you are off on....The flesh is crafty - it will even quote the Bible to maintain its lusts [i.e., it professes to be wise - see Romans 1:22]!

The issue is the mind controlled by the flesh....The flesh will tell the mind, don't believe in this creation stuff! It [the flesh] gets its data from the six senses....

The issue, though, is the flesh....The flesh wants to take God off his throne....The flesh wants you to be the measuring stick of truth, not the Bible. There's the problem!

[bevin]

Robert

I quoted scripture, LOTS of scripture, supporting my position that God intends us to use our minds and to study the world around us.

You quoted NO scripture that disagrees with that.

Then, using no basis except your own mind, you stated that all these scripture texts are wrong.

You are rejecting copious scriptural evidence.

/Bevin

[John317]

" The evidence that persuades me [to be an evolutionist] was not available to Paul or EGW - faced with difference evidence of course they reached different conclusions.

But beware of guessing what EGW might do faced with today's evidence. She let independent evidence and thinking take her a long way from her childhood beliefs. I think she would probably be an evolutionist. Paul, I am sure, would be. He also let evidence take him a long way from his childhood beliefs."

YOU NEED TO STUDY OR RESTUDY THE SUBJECT OF THE INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE AND OF THE WRITINGS OF ELLEN WHITE. Read 2 Sam 23:2; 2Tim 3:16. They were given dreams and visions and did not get their information from newspapers and books. For you to think that Ellen White or Paul would be evolutionists if alive today shows that you don't understand them or their writings. I suggest you ask the Ellen White Estate for any information that could shed light on this subject. Do you believe that Ellen White was a prophet of God?

[Bravus]

bevin - I'm actually coming to agree with the title of this thread. Rob's response throughout has been 'I know what I think, don't confuse the issue with evidence - even Biblical evidence'.

In the final analysis, origins discussions are a joke (albeit a sick one) because (a) the epistemological bases are just incommensurable: you can't get there from here, or vice versa and ( some participants will always default to name-calling and spirituality-questioning when their arguments are challenged (rather than simply acqiesced to instantly, which is apparently the only spiritually acceptable response).

Bravus out, again

[Robert]

Call it what you will, Bravus...but it is your flesh that has deceived your mind on this issue. I am not saying that you are lost...that's not my judgement, but we know that "a man’s pride will bring him low." Your pride is in your supposed intelligence.

When I say you are making your mind the measuring stick of truth, I mean that you are basing your faith outside the Bible. Instead of taking the Bible by faith you question it and formulate your positions outside of it.

While you are questioning the Biblical account of creation, why not question the "incarnation"! How can you accept this mystery scientifically? How can a woman conceive without a man's seed? Please explain this one, or do you reject this Biblical account too?

Rob