"Origins"...what a joke!

[Robert]

Quote:

---

bevin said:

Robert

I quoted scripture, LOTS of scripture, supporting my position

---

Yes, you supported your position by misusing certain verses while ignoring other passages that clearly state that God created this world in 7 literal days. Come on, you can do better than that!

Rob

[Bravus]

I don't reject anything: I think it's quite possible that God created the world in 7 literal days, and I firmly believe he had an important and miraculous role in the creation of the world. Don't label me as an evolutionist when I'm not. I simply believe we need to be willing to read the Bible carefully and with respect, and to read the natural world the same way. I don't think you're in a position to judge whether I'm proud of my intelligence - I do know there are lots and lots of people smarter than me, and that humility is a virtue I work very hard to live in all facets of my life.

You didn't deal seriously with my question about the short age of the earth and the recent creation of the universe, yet it's crucial. Other people with pretty much exactly the same set of beliefs as you, reading exactly the same texts, believe something quite different. How do you determine who is right, and how can you be so certain in your position in the face of that? If you can't answer that question, then there's honestly no point talking further, since, as I said above, you have gone beyond the place where Scriptural evidence is relevant.

Sure, there is danger in too much thinking, questioning and reasoning, in the flesh and the senses. But there is equally danger in a certainty that goes *beyond* what the texts say and chooses to ignore them. It might be pride that tempts us to try to understand the Bible in the context of science, but is it not also pride that leads us to claim our own reading of the Bible is completely incorrigible, even in the light of Scripture.

Can you answer the question? You claim the universe is millions or billions of years old, but the creation of life on earth is recent. Others read the same texts differently, and would consider you to be insufficiently creationist...

[Dr. Shane]

"Orgins" is a major part of the culture war taking place in the world today. The culture war can by summed up in a few issues:

• Orgins
• Sexuality
• Abortion
• Seperation of church & state

The Bible is crystal clear on orgins. We know what the Bible teaches. There are various explanations that can explain the observations of science that do not contradict the Bible. HOWEVER those explanations are not scientific because they assume (1) God has creative abilities (2) there was a world-wide flood (3) the earth was much different prior to the flood. Science cannot confirm or falsify any of those three points. In order for something to be scientific it must be subject to testing and observation which could either confirm or falsify it.

We cannot trust in man's wisdom. "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Prb. 14:12)

Creation scientists do not seek to prove creation. They seek to show that the world around us does not contradict the Biblial account of creation. So while creation scientists are scienctists in that they study and understand science, they do not come to their conclusions about orgins in a scientifically acceptable way. Intelligent-designers and evolutionists observe the world around us and examine its scientific evidence without taking into account the Biblical record.

The Adventist church was called forth in 1844. The name Seventh-day Adventist was choosen in 1860 and the church was officially organized in 1863. The Origin of Species was published in 1859. God called forth His remnant church to preach the Three Angels Message. The first angel's message is "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (Rev. 14:7)

The message of the Adventist church then is exactly the opposite of the message of evolution. We disagree with many other Christian denominations on the issue of Seperation of Church and State but not on the issue of Orgins. Quite the contary. Adventists understand that the Sabbath is God's sign and a memorial of His creation. Adventists understand that this sign which points to Him as Creator and Redeemer will be the ultimate test. Adventists are way ahead of other denominations in understanding the importance of orgins in the final days of Earth's history.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Bravus said:

Can you answer the question? You claim the universe is millions or billions of years old, but the creation of life on earth is recent. Others read the same texts differently, and would consider you to be insufficiently creationist...

---

First of all, I thought you were a die-hard evolutionist...I've learned different. I apologize.

Look...I am not out to judge your walk, however I am trying to get you to realize that your faith in God is the most important thing you have. As to your intelligence, I said that with respect to evolution. So don't take it too personally.

Now to your question: You said that I claim that the universe is millions/billions of years old. I don't think I made such a claim. I think I said it is possible.

Also, I don't believe that I said that the creation of life on earth was recent, although I traditionally believe it to be so.

Does it matter if "the creation" is very old? Even if Adam was created 1 million years ago it doesn't change the Biblical fact that "in Adam all die." Nor does it negate the fact that Christ, through the incarnation, assumed our corporate life from Adam and reversed all that was ruined in that first man. What difference does it make if the time between Adam and Christ was 500,000 years? Just asking....

Robert

[Robert]

Quote:

---

We cannot trust in man's wisdom. "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Prb. 14:12)

---

Here's another one:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes...."

[Dr. Shane]

The only way I could see that life on earth is old is if the geneolgy between Adam and Noah is incorrect or the genology between Noah and Abraham. However the Bible teaches that Man is as old as the rest of earth's creation. Could have millions of years passed between Gen. 1:2 and 1:3? Perhaps but that would only explain old minerals not old life.

[Robert]

The foundation of the earth could be very old. Once God started creating "life" on this foundation it took Him 7 days, that is, according to the Bible. After that I'm not sure....Does it matter?

[bevin]

Quote:

---

The Bible is crystal clear on orgins.

---

This is why Bravus says that the fundamental assumptions are different.

You assume that (a) the authors were shown the real events, ( that they correctly recorded them, and © that the details were correctly transmitted for thousands of years.

These are all assumptions. They can be tested. But you ASSUME they are true, because when they fail the tests you ASSUME the tests are wrong.

I don't. I know the origins of the OT books are obscure. There is NO evidence of the existence of these books prior to the Babylonian captivity. We KNOW that at that time scholar/scribes were assembling and creating oral and literary traditions and ascribing to them ages that were not valid.

To you, the creation story is central. You think all Christianity falls if the Creation Story falls.

To me, the center of Christianity is a loving Savior and a way of life. The exact time and details of creation are not important - they do not change the need to love my neighbor, nor do they change the need for a Savior.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The arguement that the Bible cannot be trusted because it was handed down orally and copied by hand for centuries is one that has been made by athiests of all time.

Belief in the Bible requires faith. The Dead Sea Scrolls do give us some strong evidence to believe in the Bible. Written before Christ, these Old Testement books continued being copied by hand and passed along orally for over 1,500 years before the invention of the printing press. Yet there is no significant difference between them and the Bible we have today. Yet, even with that incredible evidence, it still takes faith to believe in the Bible.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "The only way I could see that life on earth is old is if the geneolgy between Adam and Noah is incorrect or the genology between Noah and Abraham."

Shane, you need to be very careful.

There are those who have as as a fundamental tenent of their belief that those early Biblical chronologies do not present an accurate time line. Thsoe who hold such a belief believe that the ancient Biblical writers who recorded such did not intend to record an actual time-line, and that we today have a misunderstanding of those chronologies that is rooted in the differences in our cultures.

One of the reasons for what I have stated above in the reality that there are other ancient textual traditions that present those chronologies with different ennumerations of years, as well as some differences in the people listed.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "There is NO evidence of the existence of these books prior to the Babylonian captivity."

I am not prepared to debate you on the facts, at this time.

However, I do not believe that you are totally accurate in your statement. That does not mean that we have all of the answers. We do not. But, we probably have a few more today than we did 150 years ago.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

The exact time and details of creation are not important - they do not change the need to love my neighbor, nor do they change the need for a Savior.

---

When did sin enter the human race? The Bible says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses...." [Rom 5:12-14]

Apparently Paul viewed Adam as the head of the human race. Please remember Paul's credentials:

"Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father....I [Paul] did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." [Gal 1:1,12]

1] Where did sin originate?

2] Through what man did sin enter the world?

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

---

Shane, you need to be very careful.

---

I did not say the genelogies are correct or incorrect. I was just pointing out there is a possibility of error in them which may make the earth older. Would it make the earth millions of years older? I don't know. I do not believe evolutionists believe humans have been here for millions of years.

[bevin]

Quote:

---

Written before Christ, these Old Testement books continued being copied by hand and passed along orally for over 1,500 years before the invention of the printing press.

---

My point is NOT the transmission from AD1 to AD2000 -

Actually this only required a few iterations of copying, and no oral transmission. Furthermore you would be amazed how heated the supporters of the KJV get about the other versions being bad because they are based on bad old manuscripts - so obviously they believe there are bad ones.

My point is the lack of solid evidence of the Pentateuch books existing in the form we know them today preceding the Babylonian captivity. It strongly appears that Jewish scribes and scholars assembled these books out of a range of no-longer-existing oral and maybe some written tradition during the captivity. This gives 2000y from Eden to the Flood and 1500y from the Flood to the Captivity where the method of transmission can not be solidly established.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have little to say about this period.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deadsea.html

Quote:

---

Today scholarly opinion regarding the time span and background of the Dead Sea Scrolls is anchored in historical, paleographic, and linguistic evidence, corroborated firmly by carbon 14-datings. Some manuscripts were written and copied in the third century B.C.E., but the bulk of the material, particularly the texts that reflect on a sectarian community, are originals or copies from the first century B.C.E.; a number of texts date from as late as the years preceding the destruction of the site in 68 C.E. at the hands of the Roman legions.

---

/Bevin

[bevin]

Quote:

---

Please remember Paul's credentials

---

Yes, let us. Paul was a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee educated in the knowledge of the day. He recorded his VERY few visions fairly exactly. They were NOT about the origins of life on earth.

If you would read your Bible and understand it, rather than simply quote tiny fragments out of context, you might have a better chance of understanding what it says.

Quote:

---

Gal 1:11. But I certify you, brethren, that [:"red"]the gospel which was preached of me[/] is not after man.

12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

---

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

---

this only required a few iterations of copying, and no oral transmission.

---

The Dead Sea Scrolls do date around the first and second century before Christ and the printing press was invented in in 1436 and the Bible was first printed in mass in 1456. Prior to this the Bible was produced by copying it by hand. We had manuscripts from the 9th century so the Dead Sea Scrolls are most often compared to them rather than the Bibles printed in mass starting in the 15th century.

When the Dead Seas Scrolls were first discovered, many thought they would reveal a Bible much different than those currently in circulation. Many believed that no book could be copied by hand, hundreds of times, for centuries and not have any significant errors. The Dead Sea Scrolls themselves contain 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms. So many copies of the Bible were being made by every generation from that time until the printing press starting making them in mass production.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

bevin said:

Gal 1:11. But I certify you, brethren, that [:"red"]the gospel which was preached of me[/] is not after man.

---

Yes...and Paul explains the gospel well because he was trained by God Himself. He used "the two Adams", Christ & Adam, to explain the gospel. If Adam were a myth then why did Paul use him in his explanation of the gospel?

Rob

[Robert]

If you do away with Adam then you do away with your need of Christ - the 2nd Adam! So in my eye's evolution destroys one's need of Christ. It destroys the atonement! How so?

If Adam never existed then sin didn't enter the human race through him. That leads to the question, "When and where did sin enter the human race?"

If you do away with Adam you do away with the source of our sin problem. If sin is not an inherited issue, passed on through procreation, then when does one become a sinner?

[John317]

I think you better go back to the Bible and study the people you referred to. Do you mean to say that Jesus and Paul did not have the Bible available to them? They had the Old Testment, didn't they? As for the others-- Adam, Moses-- they had something better: God Himself. Jim

[Aliensanctuary]

Mantra for Magic Creation

Magic God

Magic Words

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Magic Universe

Magic Planet

Magic Man

Good Fruit

Big Sin

Bad Fall

Bad Sickness

Bad Mutations

Bad Death

Big Bad Bad

Big Boat

Big Rain

Big Flood

Big Mud

Really Big Death

Big Fossils

Little Fossils

Big Time Evidence

Mantra for Magic Evolution

Magic Soup

Magic Juice

Really Big Time

Millions Millions Millions

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Really Big Magic

Life from Non-Life

Magic Self-Creation

Millions Millions Millions

More Big Magic

Many Different Creatures

All from One

Millions Millions Millions

Magical Mutations

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Fish Walk

Lizards Fly

Millions Millions Millions

More Magical Mutations

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Big Disaster

Really Big Death

Many Little Floods

Big Fossils

Little Fossils

Big Up Here

Little Down There

Big Comes from Little

Millions Millions Millions

More Big Magic

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Men and Apes are Brothers

[bevin]

Quote:

---

"When and where did sin enter the human race?"

---

Why does the origin matter? Why does it have to be simple?

Clearly we are living in a sinful state - you don't need the Bible to tell you that. Clearly we can't fix the problem ourselves. Clearly we would like the problem solved.

The problem is much more fundamental than you realize - you can not write an objective measureable definition of sin. A test that can be applied to a device to decide if the device is sinning. If you can't write such a test, then obviously the question of "when did it start" is undefined - since we can't determine precisely what "it" is.

/Bevin

[bevin]

Quote:

---

They had the Old Testment, didn't they?

---

No, they didn't.

Go and research the history of the selection of the material that makes up the OT. It was done hundreds of years later.

It is absolutely absurd how little most Christian's know about the origin of their sacred books.

/Bevin

[Clio]

Paul and Jesus had the Pentateuch, the Historical Books, Psalms, and the Major Prophets.

Plenty to call it the OT.

Clio

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

bevin said:

Go and research the history of the selection of the material that makes up the OT. It was done hundreds of years later.

---

Actually, some of us have. But, since you are making an assertion here, then you need to provide specifics--a cite or two. Otherwise, all you are doing is making an assertion.

You will also need to address the statements Jesus made about the Scriptures--that is, assuming that you accept that Jesus was the Messiah, "God with us," and that He spoke the truth. Or, do you suggest that Jesus spoke in error, or that His knowledge of the OT scriptures was incorrect?

[Nicodema]

Quote:

---

Aliensanctuary said:

Mantra for Magic Creation

Magic God

Magic Words

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Magic Universe

Magic Planet

Magic Man

Good Fruit

Big Sin

Bad Fall

Bad Sickness

Bad Mutations

Bad Death

Big Bad Bad

Big Boat

Big Rain

Big Flood

Big Mud

Really Big Death

Big Fossils

Little Fossils

Big Time Evidence

Mantra for Magic Evolution

Magic Soup

Magic Juice

Really Big Time

Millions Millions Millions

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Really Big Magic

Life from Non-Life

Magic Self-Creation

Millions Millions Millions

More Big Magic

Many Different Creatures

All from One

Millions Millions Millions

Magical Mutations

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Fish Walk

Lizards Fly

Millions Millions Millions

More Magical Mutations

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Big Disaster

Really Big Death

Many Little Floods

Big Fossils

Little Fossils

Big Up Here

Little Down There

Big Comes from Little

Millions Millions Millions

More Big Magic

Poof! Poof! Poof!

Men and Apes are Brothers

---

Aliensanctuary, you rock!!!