The man of Romans 7

[pnattmbtc]

Excellent question!  Let me quote Ellen White and then I'll expound latter:

What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

Those whom heaven recognizes as holy ones are the last to parade their own goodness. The apostle Peter became a faithful minister of Christ, and he was greatly honored with divine light and power; he had an active part in the upbuilding of Christ’s church; but Peter never forgot the fearful experience of his humiliation; his sin was forgiven; yet well he knew that for the weakness of character which had caused his fall only the grace of Christ could avail. He found in himself nothing in which to glory.

None of the apostles or prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God had honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their own nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ. So will it be with all who behold Christ.

The righteousness of Christ, as a pure white pearl, has no defect, no stain, no guilt. This righteousness may be ours. Salvation, with its blood-bought, inestimable treasures, is the pearl of great price.

The thought that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, not because of any merit on our part, but as a free gift from God, is a precious thought. The enemy of God and man is not willing that this truth should be clearly presented; for he knows that if the people receive it fully, his power will be broken.

  Ref: http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=FLB&lang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=111&QUERY=Jesus+Christ&resultId=3078

I'm very familiar with this quote.  It's in reference to the message of justification by faith that Jones and Waggoner were preaching.  That is, the message of justification by faith which Jones and Waggoner were presenting was a message which laid the glory of man in the dust; this is how Ellen White perceived their message.  So it could hardly have been a message of legalism or perfectionism, from her perspective.

Looking forward to your answer regarding the purpose of the law.  Also thank you for your compliment about it's being a good question.  I thought so too, once I thought of it (like, "Hey!  I should have thought of this one earlier")

[Robert]

What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ....The thought that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, not because of any merit on our part, but as a free gift from God, is a precious thought. The enemy of God and man is not willing that this truth should be clearly presented; for he knows that if the people receive it fully, his power will be broken.

Justification by faith is the opposite of salvation by "the works of the law".  Therefore the primary purpose for God giving the law on Mount Sinai was to expose mankind's total inability of obtaining eternal life through the keeping of the law. 

Why then did God enter the Old Covenant with Israel? Before I answer that we must define the Old Covenant.  I'll use EGW here because she states it well:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20: 11; Lev. 18: 5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" (Deut. 27: 26)

Did God know that Israel couldn't keep the law?  Yes.  Then why did He enter that covenant? 

Answer: They didn't know!

So the primary function of the giving of the law on Mount Sinai was to lay the glory of man in the dust. by exposing his total inability to keep the law and thus point the sinner to the imputed righteousness of Christ!  

 

 

[Robert]

Did God know that Israel couldn't keep the law?  Yes.  Then why did He enter that covenant? 

Answer: They didn't know!

 

Speaking to the Laodicean church Christ says,  17 "yousay, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 

18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 

19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. (Rev chapter 3)

Edited July 10, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the Old Covenant, we probably don't disagree on this, because in the Waggoner -> Weiland -> Sequeira -> Robert line, I don't think anyone has varied from what Waggoner taught.  At any rate, your answer isn't addressing the question I asked, which I'll repeat here for your convenience:

My question is, for what purpose would God make the law work the way you are suggesting?

For example, you assert that the law demands perfection and requires the second death if that perfection is not met.  Why would God want to do this?  What purpose does this serve?

I'm asking why God would design the law to require the second death if it isn't perfectly kept; what purpose does this serve? 

[Robert]

I'm asking why God would design the law to require the second death if it isn't perfectly kept; what purpose does this serve? 

The law demands the death of the sinner because the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. Hence "the soul that sins must die"

 

[pnattmbtc]

I'm asking why God would design the law to require the second death if it isn't perfectly kept; what purpose does this serve? 

The law demands the death of the sinner because the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. Hence "the soul that sins must die"

But this would happen anyway, right?  I mean, even without the law, the sinner, because of the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos.  Hence "the soul that sins must die."  This is all true without the law, isn't it?  For example, without the law, the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. 

[Robert]

But this would happen anyway, right?  I mean, even without the law, the sinner, because of the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos.  Hence "the soul that sins must die."  This is all true without the law, isn't it?  For example, without the law, the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. 

1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Sin results in death, but sin derives its power from the law.  Therefore it is the law that brings the curse.  That curse is God abandonment with no hope of a resurrection.

[pnattmbtc]

I think what you wrote here is well stated:

The law demands the death of the sinner because the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. Hence "the soul that sins must die"

Wouldn't this happen without the law? 

[Robert]

Wouldn't this happen without the law? 

Christ took our 2nd death, right?

[Robert]

Christ took our 2nd death, right?

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."  

The results of sin causes our first death, but the 2nd death is not the result of sin.  Therefore it must be something else.  The 2nd death, "the curse of the law", is God abandonment.  With that abandonment goes any hope of a resurrection. That's the curse of the law.

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

I suggest reading the following:  http://www.jacksequeira.org/cross2.htm

 

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

I think what you wrote here is well stated:

  Quote

The law demands the death of the sinner because the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. Hence "the soul that sins must die"

Me:Wouldn't this happen without the law? 

You: Christ took our 2nd death, right? 

It appears to me you're realizing the problem of your position, as you're refusing to answer a simply yes or no question.  Of course what you eloquently said would still be the case without the law.  As you put it, "the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos.  Hence "the soul that sins must die."  Why must it die?  Because "the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos."

Hence the problem is not the law, by your own logic.  The problem is "the love of self."

The law is the solution!  Not the problem.  This is what Paul explains in Romans 7.  The law is our friend, because it points out our need for Christ, like a mirror points out our need for soap.

As Isaiah puts it

 6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment...

¹⁶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

¹⁷ Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

¹⁸ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

¹⁹ If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

 

[LifeHiscost]

I think what you wrote here is well stated:

It appears to me you're realizing the problem of your position, as you're refusing to answer a simply yes or no question.  Of course what you eloquently said would still be the case without the law.  As you put it, "the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos.  Hence "the soul that sins must die."  Why must it die?  Because "the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos."

Hence the problem is not the law, by your own logic.  The problem is "the love of self."

The law is the solution!  Not the problem.  This is what Paul explains in Romans 7.  The law is our friend, because it points out our need for Christ, like a mirror points out our need for soap.

As Isaiah puts it

 

Every government has foundational rules of governing. If one does away with God's rules of governing and adopted the opposite of each of those rules, what is left is what the world is rapidly sliding into, for the umpteenth time, that which I'm of the opinion God's patience alone has kept running up to this point of time.

27And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out,

“Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore,

only a remnant will be saved.

28For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth

quickly and with finality.”^m

29And Isaiah said the same thing in another place:

“If the Lord of Heaven’s Armies

had not spared a few of our children,

we would have been wiped out like Sodom,

destroyed like Gomorrah.”^{.....Romans 9}

25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.....James 1

 

^{God is Love!  Jesus saves!} 

[Robert]

It appears to me you're realizing the problem of your position, as you're refusing to answer a simply yes or no question.

No, not at all. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us...."  Note:  Not the curse of sin, but "the curse of the law", which is God abandonment.

The law is our friend, because it points out our need for Christ, like a mirror points out our need for soap.

That's only if you have accepted your position "in Christ", but if you reject Christ then you remain under law. What happens under law?

 Rom 2:12 "all who sin under the law will be judged by the law..."  And please do not tell me you've never sinned because Romans 3:23 & 1 John 1:8 tells me differently. 

What will the law demand of you if you are "under the law"?  Answer: Death, the curse of the law, i.e., the 2nd death. Why?   Because you are a sinner and sin, left unchecked by the law, will eventually contaminate all of God's creation.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.....James 1

 

^{God is Love!  Jesus saves!} 

"The law of liberty" is not the law.  Once we have been delivered from under law the law can't touch us.  However, then the law is used as a mirror, but keep in mind it can't condemn because as far as the law is concerned "we died to the law in the body of Christ" (Rom 7:4).  The law can't condemn a dead man.  In fact the law's justice has been fulfilled "in Christ" because "our old life was crucified with Him" approximately 2000 years ago.

What then is ""The law of liberty"?  It is the same as "the law of the Spirit" or the power of the Spirit.  2 Cor 3:17-18 gives the best example:

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory (by beholding we become changed), are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory (i.e., more and more agape in our lives), which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

The law doesn't bring liberty because we are falling short of it's high and broad demands.  That's why Peter, in addressing the Judizers said, "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10)  The law, of itself, is a "yoke of bondage". Proof?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty where with Christ hath made us free (i.e., through the gospel), and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

It appears to me you're realizing the problem of your position, as you're refusing to answer a simply yes or no question.

Robert:No, not at all.

Well, then, please answer the question!

Robert: The law demands the death of the sinner because the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. Hence "the soul that sins must die"

  Quote

Me:Wouldn't this happen without the law? 

 The question is if what you eloquently stated would happen without the law.  It would, wouldn't it?

[Robert]

 

Well, then, please answer the question!

 The question is if what you eloquently stated would happen without the law.  It would, wouldn't it?

I've answered....

 

 if you reject Christ then you remain under law. What happens under law?

 Rom 2:12 "all who sin under the law will be judged by the law..."  And please do not tell me you've never sinned because Romans 3:23 & 1 John 1:8 tells me differently. 

What will the law demand of you if you are "under the law"?  Answer: Death, the curse of the law, i.e., the 2nd death. Why?   Because you are a sinner and sin, left unchecked by the law, will eventually contaminate all of God's creation.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Well, then, please answer the question!

 The question is if what you eloquently stated would happen without the law.  It would, wouldn't it?

Robert: I've answered....

I don't think you have.  I don't recall your answering this "yes" or "no."  If you did, and I somehow missed it, I apologize, but please be so kind as to repeatt your answer.  Until you do, I can only guess, as I don't know what your thinking is.  Based on what you wrote here, I don't see how you can answer anything other than "yes", but based on what you've written elsewhere, I'd think you'd say "no", so you look to be contradicting yourself (I know you're not in your own mind, but to an outsider), so I'd like clarification as to whether the answer is yes or no, as how I'd respond depends upon your answer. 

[pnattmbtc]

The "yoke of bondage" is the yoke of sin.  Jesus said, "take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy, and my burden light".

"Take My yoke upon you," Jesus says. The yoke is an instrument of service. Cattle are yoked for labor, and the yoke is essential that they may labor effectually. By this illustration Christ teaches us that we are called to service as long as life shall last. We are to take upon us His yoke, that we may be co-workers with Him.

The yoke that binds to service is the law of God. The great law of love revealed in Eden, proclaimed upon Sinai, and in the new covenant written in the heart, is that which binds the human worker to the will of God. If we were left to follow our own inclinations, to go just where our will would lead us, we should fall into Satan's ranks and become possessors of his attributes. Therefore God confines us to His will, which is high, and noble, and elevating. He desires that we shall patiently and wisely take up the duties of service. The yoke of service Christ Himself has borne in humanity. He said, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. "I came downfrom heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me." John 6:38. DA 329

Note that Christ's yoke, which is easy, the yoke that binds to service, is the law of God.

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus said, "It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life." John 6:63, KJV. The people of Antioch and Galatia had trusted in Christ for salvation; now there were some who sought to induce them to trust in the flesh. They did not tell them that they were at liberty to sin. Oh, no; they told them that they must keep the law! Yet they must do it themselves; they must make themselves righteous without Jesus Christ.

Circumcision stood for keeping the law. But the real circumcision was the law written in the heart by the Spirit; and these "false brethren" wished the believers to trust in the outward form of circumcision as a substitute for the Spirit's work. The thing, which was given as a sign of righteousness by faith, became only a sign of self-righteousness. The "false brethren" would have them circumcised for righteousness and salvation; but "man believes with his heart and so is justified." Romans 10:10. And "whatever does not proceed from faith [believing with the heart] is sin." Romans 14:23.

Therefore, all the efforts of men to keep the law of God by their own power, no matter how earnest and sincere they may be, can never result in anything but imperfection--sin. When the question came up in Jerusalem, Peter said to those who would have been justified by their own works instead of by faith in Christ, "Now therefore why tempt ye The Glad Tidings Ellet J. Waggoner 21 1888 Most Precious Message, Inc. God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10, KJV.

This yoke was a yoke of bondage, as is shown by Paul's words that the "false brethren" slipped in "to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage." Galatians 2:4. Christ gives freedom from sin. His life is "the perfect law of liberty." "Through the law comes knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20), but not freedom from sin. "The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good" (Romans 7:12) because it gives the knowledge of sin by condemning it. It is a signpost, which points out the way, but it does not carry us. It can tell us that we are out of the way, but Jesus Christ alone can make us walk in it, for He is the way. Sin is bondage. Only those who keep the commandments of God are at liberty (Psalm 119:45); and the commandments can be kept only by faith in Christ (Romans 8:3,4) Therefore whoever induces people to trust in the law for righteousness without Christ simply puts a yoke upon them and fastens them in bondage. When a man convicted by the law is cast into prison, he cannot be delivered from his chains by the law, which holds him there. But that is no fault of the law. Just because it is a good law, it cannot say that a guilty man is innocent. (Waggoner, The Glad Tidings)

[pnattmbtc]

Following is an explanation as to why Paul speaks so strongly against those who were
preaching a false gospel:

There is nothing in this world that can confer grace and righteousness upon men, and
there is nothing in the work that any man can do that will bring salvation. The gospel is
the power of God unto salvation, not the power of man. Any teaching that leads men to
trust in any object, whether it be an image, a picture, or anything else, or to trust for
salvation in any work or effort of their own, even though that effort be directed toward
the most praiseworthy object, is a perversion of the truth of the gospel--a false gospel.
There are in the church of Christ no "sacraments" that by some sort of magical working
confer special grace on the receiver; but there are deeds that a man who believes in the
Lord Jesus Christ, and who is thereby justified and saved, may do as an expression of
his faith. "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift
of god; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created
in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before prepared that we should walk
in them." Ephesians 2:8-10, KJV, margin. This is "the truth of the gospel," and it was
for this that Paul stood. It is the gospel for all time. (Waggoner, The Glad Tidings)

A false gospel is one which leads someone to put their trust upon something other than Christ.
It is not having a specific theological concept correct, but how one deals with Jesus Christ.

[LifeHiscost]

"The law of liberty" is not the law.

 

 

I would rather take the Word of the man called to be "after God's own heart".

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will....Acts 13
 

97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day....Psalm 119

 

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

 

[Robert]

 

I don't think you have.

Have it your way....

[Robert]

Note that Christ's yoke, which is easy, the yoke that binds to service, is the law of God.

You just make this stuff up as you go....

What you are teaching is a subtle form of works.  That's why you try to refute the idea that the man of Romans 7 is converted.  

Edited July 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

I would rather take the Word of the man called to be "after God's own heart".

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will....Acts 13
 

97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day....Psalm 119

 

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

 

That's not the context....James is the context of your quote.