The man of Romans 7

[pnattmbtc]

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev. 21:7,8)

Being written in the lamb's book of life is parallel to verse 7 above. 

[Robert]

"The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

So then, sin doesn't destroy, God's glory does..

[Robert]

he first death is not a problem; it's referred to as sleep, emphasizing its temporary nature.  The second death is the problem.  When it says, "O Death, where is thy victory?" 

Every man, saved & unsaved, die the first death. Therefore it's a sleep to all men.  

The 2nd death, which is God abandonment, is for those who have rejected the righteousness of Christ.  These remain "under law"!  

" Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

What does the above mean? 

Edited June 23, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

"The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

Robert: So then, sin doesn't destroy, God's glory does..

No, think about it. God's glory is His character, as we see revealed in Christ.  Why should that destroy anybody?  There's no reason.  It is sin which so destroys the beholder that he cannot behold the glory of God, but that inability is only because of sin, which is the anomaly.  The normal case is that anyone should be able to behold God's glory, because that's how God created all His creatures, so that beholding Him would be life eternal.  

[pnattmbtc]

he first death is not a problem; it's referred to as sleep, emphasizing its temporary nature.  The second death is the problem.  When it says, "O Death, where is thy victory?" 

Every man, saved & unsaved, die the first death. Therefore it's a sleep to all men.  

The 2nd death, which is God abandonment, is for those who have rejected the righteousness of Christ.  These remain "under law"!  

The problem doesn't have to do with the law!  The problem is sin, or, "self-love" as you described it earlier.  Unless you want to define "under law" as "self-love", in which case we can agree. 

  Quote

" Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

Robert:What does the above mean? 

Redemption From the Curse

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law." Some who superficially read this rush off frantically exclaiming, "We don't need to keep the law, because Christ has redeemed us from the curse of it," as though the text said that Christ redeemed us from the curse of obedience. Such read the Scriptures to no profit. The curse, as we have seen is disobedience: "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." Therefore Christ has redeemed us from disobedience to the law. God sent forth His Son "in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, . . . in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." Romans 8:3, 4 Someone may lightly say, "Then we are all right; whatever we do is right so far as the law is concerned, since we are redeemed." It is true that all are redeemed, but not all have accepted redemption.

Many say of Christ, "We will not have this Man to reign over us," and thrust the blessing of God from them. But redemption is for all. All have been purchased with the precious blood--the life-- of Christ, and all may be, if they will, free from sin and death. By that blood we are redeemed from "the futile ways inherited from your fathers." 1 Peter 1:18 Stop and think what this means. Let the full force of the announcement impress itself upon your consciousness. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" -- from our failure to continue in all its righteous requirements. We need not sin anymore! He has cut the cords of sin that bound us so that we have but to accept His salvation in order to be free from every besetting sin. It is not necessary for us any longer to spend our lives in earnest longings for a better life and in vain regrets for desires unrealized. Christ raises no false hopes, but He comes to the captives of sin and cries to them, "Liberty! Your prison doors are open. Go forth." What more can be said? Christ has gained the complete victory over this present evil world, over "the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16), and our faith in Him makes His victory ours. We have but to accept it. (The Glad Tidings) 

[pnattmbtc]

 

Every man, saved & unsaved, die the first death. Therefore it's a sleep to all men.  

The 2nd death, which is God abandonment, is for those who have rejected the righteousness of Christ.  These remain "under law"!  

What does the above mean? 

Christ Made a Curse for Us  That "Christ died for the ungodly" (Romans 5:6) is evident to all who read the Bible. He "was delivered for our offenses." Romans 4:25, KJV. The Innocent suffered for the guilty, the Just for the unjust. "He was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:5, 6, KJV. But death came by sin. Death is the curse that has passed upon all men simply because "all have sinned." So, as Christ was "made a curse for us," it follows that Christ was "made to be sin for us." 2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV. He "bore our sins in His body" to the tree. 1 Peter 2:24.

Note that our sins were "in His body." It was no superficial work that He undertook. Our sins were not merely figuratively laid on Him, but were "in His body." He was "made a curse" for us, "made to be sin" for us, and consequently suffered death for us.   That "Christ died for the ungodly" (Romans 5:6) is evident to all who read the Bible. He "was delivered for our offenses." Romans 4:25, KJV. The Innocent suffered for the guilty, the Just for the unjust. "He was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:5, 6, KJV. But death came by sin. Death is the curse that has passed upon all men simply because "all have sinned." So, as Christ was "made a curse for us," it follows that Christ was "made to be sin for us." 2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV. He "bore our sins in His body" to the tree. 1 Peter 2:24. Note that our sins were "in His body." It was no superficial work that He undertook. Our sins were not merely figuratively laid on Him, but were "in His body." He was "made a curse" for us, "made to be sin" for us, and consequently suffered death for us....

 Whose sin was it that thus oppressed Him, and from which He was delivered? Not His own, for He had none. It was your sin and mine. Our sins have already been overcome--vanquished. We have to fight only with an already defeated foe. When you come to God in the name of Jesus, having surrendered yourself to His death and life so that you do not bear His name in vain because Christ lives in you, you have only to remember that every sin was on Him, and is still on Him, and that He is the conqueror, and straightway you will say, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 15:57, KJV. "Now thanks be unto God, which always causes us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savor of His knowledge by us in every place." 2 Corinthians 2:14, KJV (Ibid.)

[Robert]

The curse, as we have seen is disobedience: "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." Therefore Christ has redeemed us from disobedience to the law. God sent forth His Son "in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, . . . in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." 

 

Cursed is the one who does not abide by "all things" written in the book of the law, the Pentateuch.  The Paul goes on to say, 

Gal 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just, by faith shall live." 

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 

 

In other words the law demands perfection.  Failure in one point is grounds for condemnation. 

 

Edited June 24, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

The problem doesn't have to do with the law!  The problem is sin....

Sin is the problem, but a sinner under law is yet another problem.  The latter brings the 2nd death.

[Robert]

We need not sin anymore!

1 John 1:8  If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

[8thdaypriest]

MARRIAGE AND THE LAW

Robert says that Israel was "married to the law".  I disagree.

Israel was not married to the LAW. She was betrothed to the "the LORD" who made a betrothal covenant with her and led her thru the wilderness to the “promised land”. 

The Law was the marriage covenant, which is why idolatry was termed adultery.  The LORD was the "husband".

    Jeremiah 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,’ says the LORD; ‘for I am married to you.”

    Jeremiah 2:1-3 “Go and cry in the hearing of Jerusalem, saying,`Thus says the LORD: I remember you, the kindness of your youth, the love of your betrothal, when you went after Me in the wilderness . . .”

    “The House of Jacob” would be His “special treasure” (Exo. 19:3-5).  He bore her “on eagles wings” and brought her to Himself.  The people accepted His covenant (Exo. 19:8).  

    Jeremiah 31:32 “‘the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.’”

Ezekiel 16:32  “You (idolatrous Israel) are an adulterous wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband.”

WHEN the "husband" died, Israel was freed from that marriage covenant.  And I mean - absolutely, truly FREE.  Now they were free to enter into a NEW Covenant - a NEW marriage covenant.  The risen Christ is the "new" husband.  He is the "another" in Romans 7.  'He TAKES AWAY the first, that He may establish the second" (Hebrews)

The question concerns just what was expected under this NEW MARRIAGE COVENANT.   The LORD promised to "write My law on her heart".  OK - but what law?  The priesthood was changed, but Sabbath remains. 

To me this part is VERY confusing. 

When Paul says, "you died to the law, through the body of Christ" - so you could marry another,  WHO is "you" ?  He just finished saying that the "wife" is free to marry another.  So YOU is the bride - not the groom.   Legally, a groom COULD marry another woman, whether or not his first wife was still living.   The OLD/FIRST marriage covenant was the law.  THAT marriage covenant DIED (became obsolete) when the husband DIED.  But the woman did not physically DIE.  She lived on.  She could marry again.

 

[Robert]

When Paul says, "you died to the law, through the body of Christ" - so you could marry another,  WHO is "you" ?

When did Christ die "the wages of sin" - i.e., the 2nd death? Answer: 2000 plus years ago!  You the individual didn't exist, but your substance, your corporate life was "in Christ". So the "you" is all men because all men share Adam's fallen life.  Therefore "our old self was crucified with him" (Rom 6:6) because "when One died, all died" (2 Cor 5:15)

 

[Robert]

"The death of Christ proclaimed the justice of His Father's law in punishing the transgressor, in that He consented to suffer the penalty of the law Himself in order to save fallen man from its curse. The death of God's beloved Son on the cross shows the immutability of the law of God." Ellen White

Edited June 24, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

1 John 1:8  If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that he can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God. RH March 10, 1904, par. 26

[pnattmbtc]

"The death of Christ proclaimed the justice of His Father's law in punishing the transgressor, in that He consented to suffer the penalty of the law Himself in order to save fallen man from its curse. The death of God's beloved Son on the cross shows the immutability of the law of God." Ellen White

(M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.

Through Jesus, God's mercy was manifested to men; but mercy does not set aside justice. The law reveals the attributes of God's character, and not a jot or tittle of it could be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. God did not change His law, but He sacrificed Himself, in Christ, for man's redemption. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Cor. 5:19.

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. (DA 762)

[Robert]

But no one is measuring up to Christ's righteousness and therefore they are failing to keep the law as did Christ.  As John states, "if we say we have no sin" we are self-deceived.

Since all "have sinned" and continue to "fall short" of God's agape then heaven becomes unattainable because "the very righteousness of the law" isn't in actuality "fulfilled in the believer".

[Robert]

 

Ellen White instructed SDA to go to their Bibles, ultimately,  as the measuring stick of truth. 

As to her other statements read the following: 

AA 560-562 : "So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained (i.e., I am holy...I am sinless). Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the (imputed) righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

But no one is measuring up to Christ's righteousness and therefore they are failing to keep the law as did Christ.  As John states, "if we say we have no sin" we are self-deceived.

Since all "have sinned" and continue to "fall short" of God's agape then heaven becomes unattainable because "the very righteousness of the law" isn't in actuality "fulfilled in the believer".

 

 For we must always remember that it was our sins that He bore, and that the fact that He conquered is proof that we may also. To believe that Christ conquered in the flesh 1800 years ago, is to believe that He can conquer in us now in spite of our sins and weaknesses, since the sins that we have to contend with are the very same that He bears. But in spite of them, He declared the name of the Lord. Waggoner  PTUK September 16, 1897, p. 578.3

[pnattmbtc]

Ellen White instructed SDA to go to their Bibles, ultimately,  as the measuring stick of truth. 

As to her other statements read the following: 

AA 560-562 : "So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained (i.e., I am holy...I am sinless). Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the (imputed) righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

I don't know why you would quote this, as there is no disagreement over this point.  She also wrote what I quoted earlier:

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26.

Do you agree with this? 

[Robert]

 

Do you agree with this? 

Well, we are branching off the subject of Romans chapter 7....The man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirituality of the law, yet "there's no condemnation".  Did you realize this?

But, to answer your question concerning your EGW quote:

"The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

I agree with the above, but I would say it differently.

"More than this, Christ imbues (i.e., imparts) men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty."

I agree, but again I would phrase it differently....

"Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26."

If I understand her correctly, then I disagree here for 3 reasons:

1]   Believers aren't fulfilling the law.  Believers are falling short of God's agape as expressed in the spirit of the law.  That doesn't mean they are practicing sin, but rather that they are failing to live Christ's completely selfless life .  They are not perfect, as God is perfect.

2] God doesn't justify us by our performance (i.e., what the Spirit does through us), but by Christ's imputed righteousness alone.  Keep in mind EGW:  "We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone".  Here she means imputed righteousness.  We are complete in Him + nothing else.

3] Christ imparted righteousness doesn't prove our righteousness (again, we fall short of His agape)!  Instead our faith gives Christ the legal right to present us in Himself without fault before God's law.  Keep in mind that Rahab was justified even though she was still a harlot.  Her faith was in the God of Israel and she put her life on the line in order to help the spies.  That's a faith that works....That act proved her faith was in Christ even though she wasn't in harmony with the law.  

Edited June 24, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Hi 8th day.  Regarding what you wrote that is very confusing, it appears to me you may be looking at what happened in terms of a time period, as if the New Covenant were something established at a certain point in time in history, as opposed to established for each believer when they believe, regardless of when they lived (or live).  Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you wrote.

[Robert]

 

For we must always remember that it was our sins that He bore, and that the fact that He conquered is proof that we may also. To believe that Christ conquered in the flesh 1800 years ago, is to believe that He can conquer in us now in spite of our sins and weaknesses, since the sins that we have to contend with are the very same that He bears. But in spite of them, He declared the name of the Lord. Waggoner  PTUK September 16, 1897, p. 578.3

 

Yes, but that is not what saves.  Christ saved us.  That's past tense.  Saved from what?  The law!  

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law....

Christ was born under law.  He was born under the jurisdiction of the law.  And by His doing & dying He fulfilled the law. This is what saves.  Any other gospel is "another gospel".  Those who preach "another gospel", according to Paul,  are to "be eternally condemned!" (see Gal 1:6-8)

Ellen White: "The point which has been urged upon my mind for years is the imputed righteousness of Christ. I have wondered that this matter was not made the subject of discourses in our churches throughout the land, when the matter has been kept constantly urged upon me, and I have made it the subject of nearly every discourse and talk that I have given to the people. FW 18 (MS 36 1890)

Edited June 25, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Well, we are branching off the subject of Romans chapter 7....The man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirituality of the law, yet "there's no condemnation".  Did you realize this?

But, to answer your question concerning your EGW quote:

"The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

I agree with the above, but I would say it differently.

"More than this, Christ imbues (i.e., imparts) men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty."

I agree, but again I would phrase it differently....

"Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26."

If I understand her correctly, then I disagree here for 3 reasons:

1]   Believers aren't fulfilling the law.  Believers are falling short of God's agape as expressed in the spirit of the law.  That doesn't mean they are practicing sin, but rather that they are failing to live Christ's completely selfless life .  They are not perfect, as God is perfect.

2] God doesn't justify us by our performance (i.e., what the Spirit does through us), but by Christ's imputed righteousness alone.  Keep in mind EGW:  "We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone".  Here she means imputed righteousness.  We are complete in Him + nothing else.

3] Christ imparted righteousness doesn't prove our righteousness (again, we fall short of His agape)!  Instead our faith gives Christ the legal right to present us in Himself without fault before God's law.  Keep in mind that Rahab was justified even though she was still a harlot.  Her faith was in the God of Israel and she put her life on the line in order to help the spies.  That's a faith that works....That act proved her faith was in Christ even though she wasn't in harmony with the law.  

Thank you for you response.  I think if you quote Ellen White, it should be fair for me to quote her back, and I do appreciate your answering my question because it helps clarify out differences.

Regarding 1, this is a big difference between us.  SDAism comes from a Wesleyan tradition, not a Calvinist one.  The disagreement regarding 1 has gone on for centuries, and what originally triggered it was the doctrine of original sin.  The idea was that because we are all tainted by original sin, nothing we can do is free from sin, therefore righteousness by faith can only involve imputed righteousness.  Your doing a twist on this, but the same basic argument.  This is not what we have believed as Seventh-day Adventists, so there will be scores upon scores of quotes which will disagree with this, whether by Ellen White, or Waggoner, or any other SDA who was living at that time.  Our history has been that we have believed that it is possible, and indeed necessary, for believers to obey the law.  Our denomination was predicated upon this belief.

Regarding 2, I think all agree on this point, that God does not justify us by our performance.  As Ellen White puts it,

There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (FW 19)

Regarding 3, we disagree on this point, well, in part.  The part we disagree our righteousness is not proven by our experience (which looks to me to be what you're asserting; if not, please clarify)  John writes, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)".

Regarding Rahab, truth is progressive.  She was following the light she had at the time she was righteous, and the same thing is true for any believer, which makes perfect sense.  Why would anyone expect someone else in a relationship to do something that they had no idea they should be doing? (provided they were being purposefully ignorant).  You can only expect people to do things which they know they should do, or refrain from things they know they shouldn't do.  James tells us, "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them." and this is perfectly reasonable.

If we go back to the idea that God will take us to heaven if we would be happy there, what would make us happy in heaven?  Doing God's will.  If we have God now, and hate His will, we would hate it in heaven as well, and be miserable there, and long to flee from that holy place.  It would be torture for us, and we would long to die, and God, in His mercy, would accede to our request.

It's if we view out problem as being only legal that we can get into unreasonable scenarios, where God would either:

1.Take a person to heaven who wouldn't be happy there.

2.Not take a person to heaven who would be happy there.

God is all about saving us, and wants to spend eternity with us.  For this to happen, we need to be brought into harmony with Him, not in a legal fiction sort of way, but in a real way, where our hearts our transformed, like this:

By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God’s commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. FLB 113.4

The way that God transforms us is by revealing Himself in Christ.  This revelation has the power to lead us to repentance, to motivate us to live for Christ, as it did for Paul, and for countless martyrs, and anyone who loves Christ.

 

 

[Robert]

Are you, pnattmbtc, as perfect as God is perfect?  I am bring this to your door and so I'm asking you a serious question.

a] If you say "yes", then John would call you deceived.  Let's look at this:  

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth (Christ) is not in us (through His Spirit). 

 

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness (in other words Christ our High Priest forgives and presents us in Himself, perfect.  See Col 1:21-23).

 

10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

b] If you say "no", they you agree with Paul when he states that "all have sinned" (past tense) "and fall short" (present continuous tense)  of God's agape love. See Rom 3:23

John writes, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)".

John  will not contradict John.  Therefore the above cannot mean if we do good, through Christ, we are just as righteous as He is righteous.  John has already stated that none of us are totally free of our bent-to-self (sin).  So, what John must mean is if good works are seen from us this proves our faith is real and allows Christ to represent us positively righteous in Himself in the heavenly places. 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 Our history has been that we have believed that it is possible, and indeed necessary, for believers to obey the law.  Our denomination was predicated upon this belief.

That is a historic, traditional view of Adventism.   It's in harmony with folks like Shepard's Rod and Firm Foundation.  It's the essence of Laodecian pride and blindness.  May I remind you of what Paul, the Apostle Paul, stated:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law (i.e., apart from our law works) is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. (Why?) For there is no difference; 

23 for all have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love), 

24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...

 

[Robert]

Well, we are branching off the subject of Romans chapter 7....The man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirituality of the law, yet "there's no condemnation".  Did you realize this?

I ended at Romans 7:13....Let's skip verses 14 through 21 for now and get to the heart of Paul's message:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 

 

 

The unconverted do not "delight" in God's law:  "The carnal mind (the unconverted mind) is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be..." Rom 8:7 The "inward man" always refers to a converted believer. I've already given you two texts using this phrase.   So the man of Romans 7 delights in God's law.  His mind and heart are in harmony with the law.

 

 

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (where the law is written), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 

4 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 

25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

 

As a Pharisee Paul regarded himself as righteous according to the law.  See Phil 3:6.  But now, after learning that the law is spiritual, Paul saw himself as a sinner.  This is what converted him.  Now, in verses 14 through 23, we see him struggling and failing to keep the spirituality of God's law.

 

The question is, is there any condemnation to the one who "delights" in God's law, but when the rubber meets the road is failing to live a perfectly righteous life?

 

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Robert