The man of Romans 7

[Robert]

A false gospel is one which leads someone to put their trust upon something other than Christ.
It is not having a specific theological concept correct, but how one deals with Jesus Christ.

Trusting in what Christ does in you for salvation (that's what you teach) is still legalism.  Why?  Because Christ doesn't work in you to save you!  Christ has already saved us in Himself.  Any fruit we experience serves as a witnesses to our faith.  The fruit is never, never the means of salvation.

Mat 13:8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 

[Robert]

Trusting in what Christ does in you for salvation (that's what you teach) is still legalism.  Why?  Because Christ doesn't work in you to save you!  Christ has already saved us in Himself.  Any fruit we experience serves as a witnesses to our faith.  The fruit is never, never the means of salvation.

Mat 13:8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 

Perfect example:

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [P&K 588]

 

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary; but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (Manuscript 50, 1900).

[pnattmbtc]

I don't think you have.

Robert:Have it your way....

Have it your way....

Ok, you recognize you're stuck, so you refuse to answer.  I'll consider both possibilities then.

You wrote, "The law demands the death of the sinner because the love of self, left to its own devises, brings chaos. Hence "the soul that sins must die"

I asked if this would happen without the law.  If you answer "yes", which make sense, then there is no need for the law in order
for death to occur.  This would prove my point, that the law is a good thing (as Paul says!), which points out our need for Christ.
The evil which occurs by living apart from Christ happens with or without the law.  The law doesn't cause death, but disobedience
to it does, and it would still cause death regardless of whether the law existed is some specific form, like a written form,
because the law is but a transcipt of God's character, and to live contrary to agape is to die; again, with or without the law.

Sin is predicated on the principle of living for self, which is not a principle which could ever lead to anything but death.

If you answer "no", this wouldn't happen without the law, you would need to explain why not.  You'd have to explain how
living for self could result in life.

. 

[pnattmbtc]

Trusting in what Christ does in you for salvation (that's what you teach) is still legalism.  Why?  Because Christ doesn't work in you to save you!  Christ has already saved us in Himself.  Any fruit we experience serves as a witnesses to our faith.  The fruit is never, never the means of salvation.

Mat 13:8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 

This answer is clarifying the confusion.  You're speaking about trusting in what Christ does in you or outside of you, but either
of these is incorrect.  One doesn't trust in what Christ does, but in Christ, the actual Person.  Not in a theory, or in the
actions of a Person, but in the Person. 

[Robert]

 

Ok, you recognize you're stuck, so you refuse to answer. . 

I answered.  Are you calling me a liar?

[pnattmbtc]

Note that Christ's yoke, which is easy, the yoke that binds to service, is the law of God.

Robert:You just make this stuff up as you go....

What a strange remark!  I quoted this
 

The yoke that binds to service is the law of God. (DA 329) 

which is where I got the idea from.  How could I possibly have made this up? 

[pnattmbtc]

Ok, you recognize you're stuck, so you refuse to answer. . 

Robert: I answered.  Are you calling me a liar?

Not a liar, because a liar is one who intentionally states something which is false for the purpose of deceiving another, which is not what I think you are trying to do.  I think you are mistaken.  You can prove I'm wrong by showing me where you answered the yes or no question I asked 5 or 6 times either affirmatively or negatively, and I'll beg your pardon. 

Edited July 14, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Robert]

"The law brings wrath"

Do you understand?

So to sinners the law is not "nice"!

Edited July 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

"The law brings wrath"

 Ex 31:15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on theSabbath day must be put to death. 

Numbers 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 

33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 

34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 

35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 

36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. 

 

 

 

Wow...God is cruel, no?  No, He is not!!!

 

The Jews chose to be "under law" (it's called the Old Covenant) instead of under grace as was Abraham their Father.

 

That's why this man was stoned to death because the law, which he was under, said if you work you die.  SIn didn't kill him, the justice of the law had him executed!

 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death .

Why, because sin (adultery) killed them?  No!!!!  Because stones crushed their lives out.  Why?  The law demanded justice.....

Edited July 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Ex 20:12 

"Honor your father and your mother" (the moral law)

 

 

 

Deut 21:18 "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 

19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.....21 "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death....

 

 

 

Again, this rebellious son didn't die because sin killed him.  The law, which he was under, demanded his death.  Shall I continue or do you now understand that I am not in error; you are!

Edited July 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death .

Why, because sin (adultery) killed them?  No!!!!  Because stones crushed their lives out.  Why?  The law demanded justice.....

BTW, that is based on the 7th commandment, you shall not commit adultery.

[Robert]

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM"

 

Under law you sin you die....The law brings the 2nd death, not the 1st.  The 1st is the result of sin.  Here you are correct.  But the 2nd death, the one Christ came to save us from, is what the justice of the broken law demands.

[pnattmbtc]

 Ex 31:15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on theSabbath day must be put to death. 

Numbers 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 

33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 

34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 

35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 

36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. 

 

 

 

Wow...God is cruel, no?  No, He is not!!!

 

The Jews chose to be "under law" (it's called the Old Covenant) instead of under grace as was Abraham their Father.

 

That's why this man was stoned to death because the law, which he was under, said if you work you die.  SIn didn't kill him, the justice of the law had him executed!

 

This is totally off point, unless it is your position that the curse of the law is the first death, and similarly for all the other posts up to Gal. 3:10

Edited July 15, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM"

 

Under law you sin you die....The law brings the 2nd death, not the 1st.  The 1st is the result of sin.  Here you are correct.  But the 2nd death, the one Christ came to save us from, is what the justice of the broken law demands.

Without the law, one would still die the second death.  This has been my point all along.

Yes, Christ came to save us from the second death, but we need to understand what the cause of that death is.  It's not the law, but sin, which causes this death.  

But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. Romans 7;13 NLT

The problem is sin, not the law.  We need to be saved from sin, not saved from the law.

[Robert]

This is totally off point....

No, it is not!  The point is if you sinned, you died...not from sin, but because the justice of the law demanded it.

These OC Israelites died their first death. It was a foreshadowing of the 2nd death which occurs after the 2nd resurrection.  Got it?

Edited July 15, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

No, it is not!  The point under the OC is if you sin, you die...not from sin, but because the justice of the law demands it.  These died their first death.  The 2nd death occurs after the 2nd resurrection.  Got it?

It's still off point for the same reason I stated, which is that unless you wish to assert that the curse of the law is the second death, none of these verses is dealing with the curse of the law.  Also, there's some confusion regarding the Old Covenant.  I would think we would be on the same page regarding the Old Covenant.

[pnattmbtc]

As you understand things, the law demands righteousness, perfect obedience, and if that doesn't happen, then it demands death, the second death   Surely you would agree that the law of God isn't self-existent; it only exists because God created it.  Why would God create the law to function in the way you think it functions?  What would have been the logic in so doing?

I asked you this previously, and you answered well, by stating something like those who live for self bring chaos or disorder, hence "the soul that sins must die."  Clearly the problem here, using your own words, is not the law; the law doesn't have anything to do with the chaos which comes as a result of the self-love, nor the death which results.

Your position has a problem at its very foundation unless you can explain why God would create a law that functions the way you think it does.

[LifeHiscost]

That's not the context....James is the context of your quote.

Why don't you admit, you teach the gospel according to Robert according to Jack S.

20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.....Isaiah 8

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

 

Without the law, one would still die the second death.  This has been my point all along.

No, that's heresy.....That's error on steroids. The 2nd death is plainly "the curse of the law".  The only person who has experienced the curse is the God/man Christ.

[Robert]

Why don't you admit, you teach the gospel according to Robert according to Jack S.

20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.....Isaiah 8

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

Right, and you teach subtle legalism also....

[Robert]

.... there's some confusion regarding the Old Covenant.  

The Old Covenant is system of salvation by works that Israel entered with God at Mount Sinai. Anyone who pretends to gain heaven partially or fully by "the works of the law" is under that same covenant.  That's because the OC is still alive and well today.  Where you have legalism you have the OC.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

As you understand things, the law demands righteousness, perfect obedience, and if that doesn't happen, then it demands death, the second death   Surely you would agree that the law of God isn't self-existent; it only exists because God created it.

There you go with that argument, again.  Look, Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles.  He uses the phrases "under law"; "the law brings wrath"; "the curse of the law", etc.  He doesn't go out in left field with arguments like you are presenting.  So why try to add something that Paul isn't discussing?  

[Robert]

I asked you this previously, and you answered well, by stating something like those who live for self bring chaos or disorder, hence "the soul that sins must die."  Clearly the problem here, using your own words, is not the law; the law doesn't have anything to do with the chaos which comes as a result of the self-love, nor the death which results.

Your position has a problem at its very foundation unless you can explain why God would create a law that functions the way you think it does.

 

Again,

1] The first death is the result of sin.  All men experience this first death.

2] The second death is "the curse of the law".  Those who have rejected their obedience, death and resurrection "in Christ" are "held prisoners by the law" (see Gal 3:23) awaiting execution, i.e., the judgment. 

 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully (i.e, apostatize) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (the truth as it is "in Christ" - the gospel), there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 

27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire (see Rev 20:14) which shall devour the adversaries. 

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law (the OC) dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 

29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God (i.e., reject or give up Christ), and hath counted the blood of the covenant where with he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 

30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

 

In the Judgment God uses His law.  Either you stand complete "in Christ" through faith (hence justification by faith) or you remain "under the law" and therefore you stand before God's law incomplete based on your own righteousness, which is self-righteousness. The latter brings the curse - the 2nd death.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Robert