The man of Romans 7

[pnattmbtc]

Without the law, one would still die the second death.  This has been my point all along.

Robert: No, that's heresy.....That's error on steroids. The 2nd death is plainly "the curse of the law".  The only person who has experienced the curse is the God/man Christ.

You yourself said that when a person lives for self, chaos and death is the result.  What about the law is making this happen?

Consider any of the commandments, like "Thou shalt not steal."  If there was no law against stealing, would it be OK?  Or would the result be chaos?  To ask this question is to answer it.

You hit the nail on the head with your remark.  All that's necessary is to follow your own statement to its logical conclusion.

[pnattmbtc]

.... there's some confusion regarding the Old Covenant.  

Robert: The Old Covenant is system of salvation by works that Israel entered with God at Mount Sinai. Anyone who pretends to gain heaven partially or fully by "the works of the law" is under that same covenant.  That's because the OC is still alive and well today.  Where you have legalism you have the OC.

Yes, I thought we were on the same page.  The confusion was in regards to your statement about death being the penalty for disobedience having to do with the Old Covenant. 

[pnattmbtc]

As you understand things, the law demands righteousness, perfect obedience, and if that doesn't happen, then it demands death, the second death   Surely you would agree that the law of God isn't self-existent; it only exists because God created it.

Robert: There you go with that argument, again.  Look, Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles.  He uses the phrases "under law"; "the law brings wrath"; "the curse of the law", etc.  He doesn't go out in left field with arguments like you are presenting.  So why try to add something that Paul isn't discussing?  

I'm using the same argument because it is sound.  We have should have a reason for the things we believe.  I can give you reasonable explanations for everything I'm saying.  If your interpretation of Paul were correct, you should be able to back up your ideas with reason, not just by reasserting your position.  This has been the same problem throughout history. 

Paul uses phrases for which people have different ideas in regards to the meaning.  For example, "under the law" ("hupo nomos").  Waggoner taught that this phrase means "under the condemnation of the law", and has convincing arguments for his case.  I haven't seen you present any argument at all for what you think Paul meant by this.

Regarding the "curse of the law", as I've noted several times, this is taken from Deuteronomy, where it is presented not as an arbitrary (i.e. disconnected or forced) result, but as a natural consequence.  Again, this is the focal point of our disagreement.  You are seeing the pronouncements of the law as arbitrary penalties as opposed to the consequence of ones own actions.  There is no evidence that Paul thought of the law in these terms.  Indeed, Romans 1 is a clear case where Paul shows his belief in disobedience to the law resulting in the curse as a natural consequence (note how Paul discusses the wrath of God).

[pnattmbtc]

Again,

1] The first death is the result of sin.  All men experience this first death.

2] The second death is "the curse of the law".  Those who have rejected their obedience, death and resurrection "in Christ" are "held prisoners by the law" (see Gal 3:23) awaiting execution, i.e., the judgment.

I don't think anyone disagrees regarding point 1.  Regarding 2, from Waggoner:

That death is the curse is evident from the last part of verse 13, “Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” Christ was made a curse for us, in that He hung on a tree, that is, was crucified. But sin is the cause of death. “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” Rom.5:12. “The sting of death is sin.” 1Cor.15:56.

So we have the substance of verse 10 thus, that those who do not continue in the things written in the law are dead. That is, disobedience is death. And this is what the Scripture says: “When lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” Sin contains death, and men out of Christ are “dead in trespasses and sins.” It matters not that they walk about seemingly full of life, the words of Christ are, “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” John 6:53. “She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.” 1Tim.5:6. It is a living death—a body of death—that is endured. Rom.7:24.

Sin is the transgression of the law; the wages of sin is death. The curse, therefore, is the death that is carried about concealed even in the most attractive sin. “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” 

This is sound, easy to follow, and supported by Scripture.  The curse of the law is death (the second death) which is caused by sin.  The law is a transcript of God's law, which is based on agape.  Sin is based on love of self.  To live for self can only lead to death; how could it be otherwise?  Even if there were no written law, this would still be the case; how could it not be?  What would be the alternative? 

[pnattmbtc]

In the Judgment God uses His law.  Either you stand complete "in Christ" through faith (hence justification by faith) or you remain "under the law" and therefore you stand before God's law incomplete based on your own righteousness, which is self-righteousness. The latter brings the curse - the 2nd death.

God uses the law in judgment because it is an object, open standard which is reasonable and anyone can see.  God has made this standard well known, so that no one has any excuse of ignorance.  Justification by faith, or being born again, brings one into harmony with the law by converting the unbeliever. For example:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)

Not the last three sentences.  This is what happens when one is converted.

To stand before God in ones own righteousness is to stand before God apart from Christ, which is to be unconverted.  "Ye must be born again."  We cannot stand before God without being converted because if we are converted we will be out of harmony with God, "in the flesh" (at enmity with God, not subject to His law) as opposed to "in the spirit", as Paul puts it. 

[LifeHiscost]

Right, and you teach subtle legalism also....

I'm in good company. Everything Jesus did was legal according to the Word, and He asks us to do the same thing.

15 If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands....John 14 parenthesis theirs'  LHC
 

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God....Hebrews 12
 

15 For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.....John 13

 

17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”....Matthew 19 old emphasis theirs' LHC

 

And what's the end of all this effort?

 

17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.....Revelation 12   Bold emphasis theirs'  LHC
 

It just depends on who you wish to serve.

 

God is Love!   Jesus saves!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Robert]

17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”....Matthew 19 old emphasis theirs' LHC

 

You've done it again...you've lifted a verse out of context to give the impression Jesus taught salvation by law.

BTW, Jesus told this man, "if you wish to be perfect, sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor".  He said to deny self and follow Him in his denial of self.  Have you gave up everything to walk as Christ? There was no self-seeking, no love of self in Christ's life.  That's keeping the law.....If you aren't doing that then you are falling short and failing to keep the very law you claim to keep.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

You hit the nail on the head with your remark.  All that's necessary is to follow your own statement to its logical conclusion.

No, I must follow what the Bible, especially what Paul teaches.  And he says that we had to be delivered from under law because we are sinners.  To be sinners and under law means death, the 2nd death.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Regarding the "curse of the law", as I've noted several times, this is taken from Deuteronomy, where it is presented not as an arbitrary (i.e. disconnected or forced) result, but as a natural consequence. 

There's nothing natural about being resurrected at the 2nd resurrection and then dying again, only this time it's the 2nd death.  The first one was based on natural consequences, the 2nd one is based on the curse of the law.

[Samie]

NKJ John 8:51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

NKJ John 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

In the Savior's eyes, the death with which people now die, is but a sleep.

NKJ John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."

NKJ Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death

[Robert]

NKJ John 8:51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

The 2nd death, not the 1st death.

NKJ John 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Again, never experience the 2nd death.

 

In the Savior's eyes, the death with which people now die, is but a sleep.

NKJ John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."

NKJ Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death

Right, our first death is called a sleep because there's a resurrection.  This is true of both the lost and the saved.  

Dan 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.  

[pnattmbtc]

You hit the nail on the head with your remark.  All that's necessary is to follow your own statement to its logical conclusion.

Robert: No, I must follow what the Bible, especially what Paul teaches. 

This means you believe if you follow your own statement to its logical conclusion, then you won't be following the Bible!  Interesting!  You hold a position which you yourself believe can't logically be followed with contradicting the Bible, especially Paul. 

[Samie]

 

The 2nd death, not the 1st death.

Again, never experience the 2nd death.

 

Right, our first death is called a sleep because there's a resurrection.  This is true of both the lost and the saved.  

Dan 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.  

So the death from the 7 last plagues is also a sleep because the wicked will also be resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire - the 2nd death? Are you saying the wicked will experience 3 deaths? 1. what you call the first death; 2. death from the 7 last plagues; and 3. the 2nd death, the lake of fire.  If so, why is death in the lake of fire the 2nd death and not the 3rd? I believe, the current death sleep is not to be counted.

What death did Jesus die? Which death is referred to in Rom 6:23 as the wages of sin?

[Robert]

So the death from the 7 last plagues is also a sleep because the wicked will also be resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire - the 2nd death? Are you saying the wicked will experience 3 deaths?

This is their 1st death....

What death did Jesus die? 

The 2nd death.  If the 1st, we have a problem because folks are dying... 

[Robert]

 

What does it mean to be "under law"?  Christ is clear:

Matt 5:18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.....48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

How perfect?  Just as God is perfect.  If not, the law will condemn you and you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

Matt 5:18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.....48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

How perfect?  Just as God is perfect.  If not, the law will condemn you and you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Where is there anything in either the immediate context or anywhere whatsoever in Christ's ministry as a whole that would suggest that Christ looked at the law in this way?  You look to be superimposing how the Pharisees looked at the law upon what Christ said, but to understand what Christ meant, we need to understand how *Christ* viewed the law.

Consider what Christ side earlier in this very sermon, and we get an idea of what he meant.  Consider Christ's work as a whole, and in this sermon, and it is clear that Christ could only have been speaking of the law in terms of love.

Surely you't not going to get the meaning of vs 48 by snipping 3 verses 30 verses earlier and cutting out everything in the immediate context both before and after. 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Regarding the "curse of the law", as I've noted several times, this is taken from Deuteronomy, where it is presented not as an arbitrary (i.e. disconnected or forced) result, but as a natural consequence. 

Robert:There's nothing natural about being resurrected at the 2nd resurrection and then dying again, only this time it's the 2nd death.  The first one was based on natural consequences, the 2nd one is based on the curse of the law.

The 2nd one is based on natural consequences as well.  This is easy to see.  The root of sin is the love of self, which is a principle which can only lead to death, because it separates one from God, who alone is the source of life.

Only a being who had life in himself could live for self and live; but God is agape, so there are no beings who can live for self and not die.

The curse of the law is just another name for the second death, so to say that the 2nd one is based on the curse of the law isn't just saying that the 2nd one is based on itself; i.e., it's not saying anything useful, as they are just sysnomns for each other.  What's the mechanism involved?  That's the question.

Why does a person die?  A person dies because he chooses not to live with God.

[Robert]

 A person dies because he chooses not to live with God.

1] Is that why you will die?

2] Lucifer, turned Satan (the adversary), isn't dead.  It has lived thousands of years.  Sin hasn't killed him. Why?

[Robert]

The 2nd one is based on natural consequences as well.  This is easy to see.

Really?  

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them....14 they (the lost) were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 15And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Natural?  No, this group is still under law and the law will be their judge based on their works.  Since they are sinners the law will demand their eternal death.  That's the 2nd death.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Where is there anything in either the immediate context or anywhere whatsoever in Christ's ministry as a whole that would suggest that Christ looked at the law in this way?  

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven."

The Pharisees were men, who set themselves apart for the keeping of the law, in order to gain heaven.  So outwardly they kept the rules, but the law requires not only perfect outward performance, but perfect thoughts.  The law demands only agape and not one ounce of self-love.  If you fail, you die.   Sin doesn't directly demand your death; the justice of the law is what demands your death. 

Edited July 16, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Surely you't not going to get the meaning of vs 48 by snipping 3 verses 30 verses earlier and cutting out everything in the immediate context both before and after. 

Q: Who is Christ addressing?

A:  "the multitudes" (Matt 5:1)

Q: Who made up the "multitudes"?

A: We have to go where Christ ends his sermon and that's found in Matt 7:28 

When Jesus finished saying these things, the people were amazed at his teaching, (why?) 29 because he did not teach like their teachers of the law. He taught like a person who had authority. 

So Christ was addressing Jews who had been taught, by their teachers of the law (Scribes and Pharisees), that heaven could only be gained by the keeping of the law.

In order to counter this teaching Christ expanded upon the law.  He did this to show the impossibility of gaining heaven by "the works of the law". 

Edited July 16, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

So Christ was addressing Jews who had been taught, by their teachers of the law (Scribes and Pharisees), that heaven could only be gained by the keeping of the law.

In order to counter this teaching Christ expanded upon the law.  He did this to show the impossibility of gaining heaven by "the works of the law". 

For example:

21 “You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ 22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! 

Murder is an outward, physical act.

Anger is a thought, not an act. So the law demands your thoughts to be perfect (sinless).

So if you want to be perfect, not only must you be selfless (no self-seeking, no self-interest, just agape), your thoughts must be perfect.

Now do you see why Christ had to delivered us from under the law?  If not, you need your eyes opened and I can't help you there....

 

 

Edited July 16, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Now do you see why Christ had to delivered us from under the law?  If not, you need your eyes opened and I can't help you there....

Isn't that the message to the Laodicean people

Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see.

See what?  That you aren't righteousness....that you aren't a commandment keeper.  That instead you are "falling short" of God's agape love and your only chance at heaven is through the imputed righteousness of Christ (what He did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity).

[LifeHiscost]

Isn't that the message to the Laodicean people

Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see.

See what?  That you aren't righteousness....that you aren't a commandment keeper.  That instead you are "falling short" of God's agape love and your only chance at heaven is through the imputed righteousness of Christ (what He did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

What is your biblical explanation of this text? Do I understand correctly that you don't see the words of Jesus as being for promise?

23 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things ^{are possible} to him who believes."....Mark 9

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”....Matthew 19

^{God is Love!  Jesus saves!} 

 

[pnattmbtc]

A person dies because he chooses not to live with God.

1] Is that why you will die?

2] Lucifer, turned Satan (the adversary), isn't dead.  It has lived thousands of years.  Sin hasn't killed him. Why?

The best explanation to this question I know of is here:

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)