What is your position on homosexuality?

[Bravus]

1. Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone (though I'm far from convinced homosexual actions and orientations are sinful, still those throwing rocks might be better occupied looking in the mirror).

2. As a generalisation, women's sexuality is more fluid than men's.

3. There is a lot of evidence that these 'conversion' therapies lead mainly to two things: backsliding and suicide.

[GayatfootofCross]

1. Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone (though I'm far from convinced homosexual actions and orientations are sinful, still those throwing rocks might be better occupied looking in the mirror).

2. As a generalisation, women's sexuality is more fluid than men's.

3. There is a lot of evidence that these 'conversion' therapies lead mainly to two things: backsliding and suicide.

There are too many cases.

GBU! Bravus.

[Dr. Shane]

There are a lot of problems with talk therapies involved with exit ministries.  I was closely associated with a couple of them while running my ministry during college.  The big danger sign is when these therapies try to change the sexual orientation of the subject.  They are successful with a few but that is likely because there are some homosexuals that have simply chosen the behavior.  They were not born that way nor developed it due to childhood circumstances.  That category of homosexual finds it much easier to leave the lifestyle.  The APA has issued statements for physiologists treating patients seeking to change their orientation.   

 

On the basis of the Task Force’s findings, the APA encourages mental health professionals to provide assistance to those who seek sexual orientation change by utilizing affirmative multiculturally competent and client-centered approaches that recognize the negative impact of social stigma on sexual minorities and balance ethical principles of beneficence and nonmaleficence, justice, and respect for people’s rights and dignity.

 

The APA has suggested that when an individual's sexual orientation collides with their sexual orientation the subject can be encouraged to live a life of celibacy and frame it as a sacrifice to God.  They do not encourage trying to change the person's orientation.  The Catholic church is filled with individuals who are chosen a life of celibacy as a sacrifice for God and live happy and fulfilled lives.

So talk therapy of itself is not bad or dangerous except when it promises a change in orientation.  Those I was associated with would not promise orientation change.  They would say that sometimes orientation change happens and sometimes it doesn't but it should never be the goal.  The goal is learning to live as God plans for us. 

[Dr. Shane]

I don't want to change the topic to alcoholism but do want to clarify the disorder.  Some do get confused because hard drinking is seen as alcoholism.  There are many hard drinkers that drink like alcoholics but they are not.  What distinguishes them is that when they have a good reason to quit drinking, they can.  These are the types of people using alcohol as an escape.  When alcohol causes them more trouble than it is worth, they walk away from it.  For alcoholics, drinking may have started out as an escape but it becomes a prison they cannot escape from.  They make promise after promise that they will stop but they never do.  The success rate of those seeking treatment is even low.  The success rate of AA has been shown to be the best at about 24%.  To me, a 24% success rate does not exactly sound like a lot of hope.  There is a sound consensus within the medical community that alcoholism is a mental disorder.  He is how the founders of AA described it.

Our behavior is as absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink as that of an individual with a passion, say, for jay-walking. He gets a thrill out of skipping in front of fast-moving vehicles. He enjoys himself for a few years in spite of friendly warnings. Up to this point you would label him as a foolish chap having queer ideas of fun. Luck then deserts him and he is slightly injured several times in succession. You would expect him, if he were normal, to cut it out. Presently he is hit again and this time has a fractured skull. Within a week after leaving the hospital a fast-moving trolley car breaks his arm. He tells you he has decided to stop jay-walking for good, but in a few weeks he breaks both legs.

On through the years this conduct continues, accompanied by his continual promises to be careful or to keep off the streets altogether. Finally, he can no longer work, his wife gets a divorce and he is held up to ridicule. He tries every known means to get the jaywalking idea out of his head. He shuts himself up in an asylum, hoping to mend his ways. But the day he comes out he races in front of a fire engine, which breaks his back. Such a man would be crazy, wouldn't he?

You may think our illustration is too ridiculous. But is it? We, who have been through the wringer, have to admit if we substituted alcoholism for jay-walking, the illustration would fit exactly. However intelligent we may have been in other respects, where alcohol has been involved, we have been strangely insane. It's strong language but isn't it true?

Gays that have no religious conflict may live wonderfully happy lives.  However those with a religious conflict seem to struggle to break away from the lifestyle in a very similar way that an alcoholic struggles to quit drinking.  The easy answer for some is to change their religious beliefs.  However the ancient words recorded in the Bible do not change and many of these gay individuals seeking change are too honest with themselves to simply change their religious belief.  They are caught in that struggle between their sexual orientation and religious beliefs.  The gay lifestyle holds them very much like the bottle holds the alcoholic.

Being an alcoholic myself, in addition to my work with gays in the past, helps me be very compassionate toward them.  I am a lucky one - if one believes in luck.  I am part of the 24%.  This year in September I will celebrate 30 years of sobriety.

[Robert]

1] When God created Adam He created the human race in him

2] Adam was made in the image and likeness of God.  He was made perfect in agape with no indwelling sin

3] After the fall Adam's life became perverted because of indwelling sin

4] The only life Adam could therefore pass onto us was a life that had sinned and a life that was perverted by sin.

5] Therefore to say "that God made me gay" is a lie.  One is gay because he received Adam's life after the fall.

6] As Christians we are not to condone and practice known sin as a lifestyle. Instead we are to repent and strive, through God's grace, to overcome besetting sins; not celebrate sin.  But always remember we are already perfect "in Christ". 

Edited June 28, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

They are caught in that struggle between their sexual orientation and religious beliefs.  The gay lifestyle holds them very much like the bottle holds the alcoholic.

Being an alcoholic myself, in addition to my work with gays in the past, helps me be very compassionate toward them.

I too have besetting sins....In fact I've struggled with a certain sin [that means I'm not telling ] ever since I accepted Christ.  I still do not have "victory" over it, although sometimes I think that I have.  

The thing that keeps me going (that is, not giving up Christ) is knowing that "in Christ" I have salvation full and complete.  I am complete in Him even though in my walk I am incomplete.  Nevertheless we should not say that sinning is okay.  Sin is a destroyer...it always hurts us.  Therefore we should not condone sin as a legitimate lifestyle.

 

Edited June 28, 2015 by Robert

[debbym]

i don't think the Holy Spirit leads us to deny our God born identity, or to deny that identity to another.  we can so readily assume a false identity, and fully make it our own.  

one false identity is that we are self sufficient and that the works of our flesh are good enough to stand before God.

When the Spirit speaks to us, it tells us the truth, that in us all there dwelleth no good thing.  Only Jesus could say the Devil comes and has nothing in me.

we can only stand before God clothed in the righteousness of Jesus, not clothed in any garment constructed of our flesh.

When i stand before God i do not hold up my sexual orientation  to God and trust i am accepted before God for that,  whatever that orientation is.

[Gail]

I think this says it best:

I will step out in faith and trust Him regardless cause of His great love and humble work in me. He is the most beautiful being in all the Universe. 

By beholding we will become changed. Whatever background one has, whatever struggles, our God is mighty to save. I hope in this everyday

Edited June 28, 2015 by Gail

[hch]

i don't think the Holy Spirit leads us to deny our God born identity...

God gives us ample instructions as to how to find our natural identity.

If obeyed, God's simple do's and don'ts will be a blessing that most will never experience.

[Naomi]

God gives us ample instructions as to how to find our natural identity.

If obeyed, God's simple do's and don'ts will be a blessing that most will never experience.

The operative word is If Obeyed ... there is a learning curve that can be difficult to achieve but so worth the effort (for lack of a better word)

[Bravus]

1] When God created Adam He created the human race in him

2] Adam was made in the image and likeness of God.  He was made perfect in agape with no indwelling sin

3] After the fall Adam's life became perverted because of indwelling sin

4] The only life Adam could therefore pass onto us was a life that had sinned and a life that was perverted by sin.

5] Therefore to say "that God made me gay" is a lie.  One is gay because he received Adam's life after the fall.

6] As Christians we are not to condone and practice known sin as a lifestyle. Instead we are to repent and strive, through God's grace, to overcome besetting sins; not celebrate sin.  But always remember we are already perfect "in Christ". 

You have simply *assumed* that the homosexual orientation is part of the Fall, not part of the original Creation, in this sequence. No evidence has been brought to support that assumption.

[Robert]

 Like this

 

You have simply *assumed* that the homosexual orientation is part of the Fall, not part of the original Creation, in this sequence. No evidence has been brought to support that assumption.

Come on, Bravus, read your Bible.  Dust it off.... 

Edited June 28, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

This software has problems....

[jbal7]

My 2 cents, -> Love the sinner, hate the sin. I love homosexual people. I have some friends that are. However, I don't like the lifestyle. I try not to be hateful of it, rather just love and hopefully project Christ through my actions.

Recently I came to an epiphany of it all and now I look at it this way...

1. I don't believe their are levels of sin. That one is worse than another. We as humans would say that well yeah, murder is worse than stealing. But does God see it that way? Doesn't the Bible say the wages of sin are death? If you break it down, cut and dry, sin is sin -> Transgression of the Law. 

2. I've often wondered, why all the debate of homosexuality? Yea I see the flaws in it but shouldn't we be focused on murder or something else. Then I had this epiphany.

3. Homosexuality is a sin. We need forgiveness of our sins. But! most people arguing for it don't see it as a sin. That's the issue! I think the problem is that people don't see it as a sin therefore they keep living in sin, and thus, preventing a more deeper relationship with Jesus and are neglecting His sacrifice of forgiveness for this sin. I mean, we all live in sin everyday but most of are actively trying to overcome our sins, addictions, and what have you. They don't see it as a sin and they're not trying to overcome therefore they're allowing the "mark" to be on them. Does Jesus forgive sins we don't ask to be forgiven? Can we get to Heaven with sins still bound to us? We need to let Jesus wipe us clean of ALL sin. 

A man having sex with a man is wack. But is the actual action any worse that taking a life? I don't think so. i'm not concered with the phyical part of it. Its the spiritual part I think that matters. Homosexuality, murder, stealing, lies, its all the same to me. I think it boils down to if we don't ask forgiveness for our sins Jesus can't wipe the slate clean. I hope my thoughts make sense. I know I'm a little wordy. Also, I don't mean to offend anyone. I believe the Bible says its a sin, an abomination. I can't imagine going through that problem, trying to re orientate my sexuality. But, I believe its all possible if we allow Jesus to take charge. 

Edited June 29, 2015 by jballew7

[B/W Photodude]

This is an interesting passage in consideration of the gay movement and WO and the claim that WO will bring the homosexual movement into acceptance within the church. While the text is not specifically about Sodom, it is comparing the wickedness of the people and the flaunting of their sins like the people of Sodom and to make matters worse, in judgment, women will become their rulers!

Isaiah 3:9-12New International Version (NIV)

9 The look on their faces testifies against them;
    they parade their sin like Sodom;
    they do not hide it.
Woe to them!
    They have brought disaster upon themselves.

10 Tell the righteous it will be well with them,
    for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.
11 Woe to the wicked!
    Disaster is upon them!
They will be paid back
    for what their hands have done.

12 Youths oppress my people,
    women rule over them.
My people, your guides lead you astray;
    they turn you from the path.

[Bravus]

One more time: the sins of Sodom were primarily (as stated in the Bible) in their treatment of the vulnerable and poor, not homosexuality. Certainly America has much to fear if it is to be called to account for those particular sins.

[LifeHiscost]

Found this on my FB posted their by a Christian Friend.

A Catholic Priest wrote this

Unexpected to see.

.............

No issue brings out so much hatred from so many Catholics as homosexuality. Even after over 25 years as a Jesuit, the level of hatred around homosexuality is nearly unbelievable to me, especially when I think of all of the wonderful LGBT friends I have.

The Catholic church must do a much better job of teaching what the Catechism says: that we should treat our LGBT brothers and sisters with "respect, sensitivity and compassion."

But God wants more. God wants us to love. And not a twisted, crabbed, narrow tolerance, which often comes in the guise of condemnations, instructions and admonitions that try to masquerade as love, but actual love.

Love means: getting to know LGBT men and women, spending time with them, listening to them, being challenged by them, hoping the best for them, and wanting them to be a part of your lives, every bit as much as straight friends are part of your lives.

Love first. Everything else later. In fact, everything else is meaningless without love.

...................................................

 

Its all in the Bible!

 

God bless you all!

Great topical thread.. considering News of the Century (or more)!

 

When it comes time to accept the command that is prefaced by "remember", while all our neighboring professors are calling for our death penalty, then will be clearly seen those who are the friends of Jesus.

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

[hch]

You have simply *assumed* that the homosexual orientation is part of the Fall, not part of the original Creation, in this sequence. No evidence has been brought to support that assumption.

Was there there any homosexuality in the original creation prior to the fall? If that had been a part of God's plan why did He make Adam and Eve, wouldn't Adam and Steve have been more appropriate to address your musing? Or Eve and Arlene? But in either scenario neither couple would have raised Caine, because they would not have been Able.

Lately common sense just isn't as common as it used to be.

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

Eve and Arlene!

No No..

Eve and Barbie!!!

Was there there any homosexuality in the original creation prior to the fall? If that had been a part of God's plan why did He make Adam and Eve, wouldn't Adam and Steve have been more appropriate to address your musing? Or Eve and Arlene? But in either scenario neither couple would have raised Caine, because they would not have been Able.

Lately common sense just isn't as common as it used to be.

 

 

Salutations, hch!

[GayatfootofCross]

 

 8 minute video going in one direction and coming out another

 

 

Otis Moss, III Challenges Fellow Black Clergy On Marriage Equality For Gays And Lesbians

 

Posted: 05/28/2012 11:00 am EDT Updated: 06/01/2012 7:00 pm EDT

 

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The Rev. Dr. Otis Moss, III is the Pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, Illinois. During an address to his church on May 13th, Pastor Moss read a letter he had sent to a fellow clergyman who took issue with the President’s recent support of Gay marriage.

Find the transcript below:

My Brother:

Tell your brethren who are part of your ministerial coalition to “live their faith and not legislate their faith” for the Constitution is designed to protect the rights of all. We must learn to be more than a one-issue community and seek the beloved community where we may not all agree, but we all recognize the fingerprint of the Divine upon all of humanity.

 

There is no doubt people who are same-gender-loving who occupy prominent places in the body of Christ. For the clergy to hide from true dialogue with quick dismissive claims devised from poor biblical scholarship is as sinful as unthoughtful acceptance of a theological position. When we make biblical claims without sound interpretation we run the risk of adopting a doctrinal position of deep conviction but devoid of love. Deep faith may resonate in our position, but it is the ethic of love that forces us to prayerfully reexamine our position.

The question I believe we should pose to our congregations is, “Should all Americans have the same civil rights?” This is a radically different question than the one you raised with the ministers, “Does the church have the right to perform or not perform certain religious rites.” There is difference between rights and rites. We should never misconstrue rights designed to protect diverse individuals in a pluralistic society versus religious rites designed by faith communities to communicate a theological or doctrinal perspective. These two questions are answered in two fundamentally different arenas. One is answered in the arena of civic debate where the Constitution is the document of authority. The other is answered in the realm of ecclesiastical councils where theology, conscience and biblical mandates are the guiding ethos. I do not believe ecclesiastical councils are equipped to shape civic legislation nor are civic representatives equipped to shape religious rituals and doctrine.

The institution of marriage is not under attack as a result of the President’s words. Marriage was under attack years ago by men who viewed women as property and children as trophies of sexual prowess. Marriage is under attack by low wages, high incarceration, unfair tax policy, unemployment, and lack of education. Marriage is under attack by clergy who proclaim monogamy yet think nothing of stepping outside the bonds of marriage to have multiple affairs with “preaching groupies.” Same-gender couples did not cause the high divorce rate, but our adolescent views of relationships and our inability as a community to come to grips with the ethic of love and commitment did. We still confuse sex with love and romance with commitment.

My father, who is a veteran of the civil rights movement and retired pastor, eloquently stated the critical nature of this election when speaking to ministers this past week who claim they will pull support from the President as a result of his position. He stated, “Our Ancestors prayed for 389 years to place a person of color in the White House. They led over 200 slave revolts, fought in 11 wars, one being a civil war where over 600,000 people died. Our mothers fought and were killed for women’s suffrage, our grandparents were lynched for the civil rights bill of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965…my father never had the opportunity to vote and I believe it is my sacred duty to pull the lever for every member of my family who was denied the right to vote. I will not allow narrow-minded ministers or regressive politicians the satisfaction of keeping me from my sacred right to vote to shape the future for my grandchildren.”

“The institution of marriage is not under attack as a result of the President’s words.”

Gay and lesbian citizens did not cause the economic crash, foreclosures, and attack upon health care. Poor underfunded schools were not created because people desire equal protection under the law. We have much work to do as a community, and to claim the President of the United States must hold your theological position is absurd. He is President of the United States of America not the President of the Baptist convention or Bishop of the Sanctified or Holiness Church. He is called to protect the rights of Jew and Gentile, male and female, young and old, Gay and straight, black and white, Atheist and Agnostic. It should be noted the President offered no legislation, or executive order, or present an argument before the Supreme Court. He simply stated his personal conviction.

If we dare steal away from the noise of this debate, we will realize as a church we are called to “Do justice, live mercy and walk humbly with God.” Gay people have never been the enemy; and when we use rhetoric to suggest they are the source of our problems we lie on God and cause tears to flow from the eyes of Christ.

I am not asking you to change your position, but I am stating we must stay in dialogue and not allow our own personal emotional prejudices or doctrines to prevent us from seeing the possibilities of a beloved community.

November is fast approaching, and the spirits of Ella Baker, Septima Clarke, Fannie Lou Hammer, Rosa Parks, A. Phillip Randolph, James Orange, Medgar Evers and Martin Luther, King Jr. stand in the balcony of heaven raising the question, “Will you do justice, live mercy and walk humbly with our God?” Emmitt Till and the four little girls who were assassinated in Alabama during worship did not die for a Sunday sermonic sound bite to show disdain for one group of God’s people. They were killed by an evil act enacted by men who believed in doctrine over love. We serve in ministry this day because of a man who believed in love over doctrine and died on a hill called Calvary in a dusty Palestinian community 2,000 years ago. Do not let the rhetoric of this debate keep you from the polls, my friend.

Asking you to imagine a beloved community, your brother and friend,

Otis Moss, III
Senior Pastor
Trinity UCC

Edited June 29, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[GayatfootofCross]

another Christian  Coming to his senses!

God's heart shown here.

 

An Evangelical Pastor At His First Pride Parade

Posted: 06/24/2015 2:58 pm EDT Updated: 06/24/2015 3:59 pm EDT

 

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This year, I was invited to attend my first ever Pride parade. Our friend Robin invited us to join her church on their "float" and march the hour-long parade route together. Robin's church has been nothing but inclusive of us these past four months. You see, our 1-year-old new church plant was kicked out of our parent denomination because of our convictions regarding including the LGBTQ community.

I have long affirmed an inclusive theology, believing that our gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and queer friends, their families and allies should be fully welcomed in our churches. I affirmed their role in leadership, whether it was volunteering at events, teaching Bible study, staffing our children's ministry or helping to serve communion. I have affirmed the LGBTQ community at the highest levels and most mundane levels of church participation, for two reasons: 1) I am convinced beyond a doubt God loves each and every part of us as we are created, including our sexual identities, and 2) we're a new church  -- it requires all hands on deck. You want to come out on an incredible summer day and help make lemonade and stack chairs? You're in.

What I did not realize, however, was the overwhelming sense of inclusion I would experience along Portland's downtown streets and waterfront.

My friend and ministry colleague, Rev. Amy Piatt, handed me a poster right before we joined Robin and First Christian Church in the parade staging area on the North Park Blocks. The poster read:

"As a Christian I AM SORRY for the narrow-minded, judgmental, deceptive, manipulative actions of those who denied rights & equality to so many in the name of God."

I had long since admired that poster, seeing it in Amy's office. But I couldn't believe I was actually going to parade around with it.

You see, for the longest time, I would not be allowed to communicate such sentiment, for fear of the picture being posted on social media. That's how intense the fear was for me in my former denomination, and for so many of my friends and colleagues who remain. "Better to let these things lie unsaid," church leaders would tell us. We were not allowed to preside over same-sex weddings, for one, even though many of us either affirmed or secretly presided over them for years. You wouldn't want a photo of you attending such a gay-affirming event to pop up on Facebook for fear of losing your job. Marching around with an apology on my chest at the Pride Parade? Well, that was the most unfathomable thing of all.

But those fears were meaningless to me now. We had already lost everything: two years of funding, friends, our 'faith family' support system. Best to move forward, step by step, and see what this brave new world had to offer.

It's so incredible to take those steps.

Walking down Burnside Avenue, I realized this was not your typical Sunday stroll. I wore my red church pastoral stole (symbolizing the season of Pentecost) and carried that poster in front of me for everyone to see.

And I meant it: I am sorry for the legions of people who have said, done and prayed unimaginable, exclusionary and degrading things in the name of God. I am. Were these hateful (and not so hateful -- some good folks are just stuck in outdated, callous theologies) people my responsibility? I believe, in some ways, yes. As a pastor, I am incredibly concerned with the flourishing and full potential of everyone. And when someone speaks or does things to denigrate others in the name of God, we must try harder. No matter one's professed faith or disinterest in faith. Because, as a Christian pastor, I believe the good news of Jesus is that everyone is fearfully and wonderfully made, and that we are invited to join in a life of love for the common good.

Heady ideas, I know. But I think that in these days of division, derision and despair, people are looking for better ways and better possibilities.

Anyways, I walked down Burnside and the first parade on-lookers squinted and began to read my placard. I did not know what to expect at first. Did they think I was protesting Pride? Would they accept my apology?

I was overwhelmed by the response. People began to cheer. Many asked me to slow down so they could take a picture. Some wiped away tears and simply mouthed "thank you," or "I accept [your apology]." For the next few miles, cheers and cameras and tears greeted us everywhere we went. I was grateful I was wearing sunglasses, because there were a few moments when I simply welled up with tears and couldn't handle it anymore.

I couldn't handle the acceptance. I couldn't handle the forgiveness. I couldn't handle the small glimpses I witnessed of healing unfathomably deep hurts.

There was only one feeling I had: Pride.

And I think that is the point of Pride, at least for me. People joining together in solidarity to say that "love wins," to quote Rob Bell. Love has the final and enduring word.

Our little float was one of only a handful of church groups out to march for Pride this past Sunday. We were far outnumbered by non-profit groups and corporations. Companies like Nike, Intel, Adidas, Comcast and Chipotle spoke much louder than us. The church is following the lead of others, unfortunately. But I was proud to walk with fellow Christians, apologizing to my fellow citizens, for the ways in which people of God have fallen far too short.

As I shared above, for years, I have affirmed the full inclusion of LGBTQ folks at all levels of the church. But what I did not realize is the full potential of what might happen if LGBTQ folks were not just included (as they are beginning to be in so many churches), but helping us co-create better communities of faith and practice.

For one, there is better music. But jokes aside, inclusion is not enough. What I learned yesterday is that if we truly welcome and include, we will be changed. We will be transformed. Because that's what happens when people are vulnerable enough to step out in faith, show up and share with one another. And have conversations. And take photos with each other. And ask for forgiveness. And build bridges. And seek healing.

Our little 1-year old new church continues to press forward in faith. We're growing bit by bit and rolling up our sleeves for faith and justice. I'm so grateful for the hospitality of established, faithful congregations like First Christian Church, who have included us in their physical space and much of their life together. I hope some of my sisters and brothers in church leadership who remain silent or on the sidelines can muster up the courage to step forward and join the growing communities of faith for inclusion.

But most importantly, I hope to meet some of the folks we encountered along the parade route for a cup of coffee and further conversation. I cannot wait to see what might be in store for all of us, yes, everyone one of us, between now and Pride 2016.

[bonnie]

It just can't get much plainer,no matter how many"christians" twist and turn the words.

(2) HOW DOES THE BIBLE DEFINE HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR?

 

Let's read what the Bible says about homosexual behavior and see how God feels when we turn our backs on His laws and embrace an "anything goes" attitude:

Romans 1:24-28, "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves, who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly (shameful), and receiving in themselves the recompense of theirerror which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient."

Here the Bible shows us that homosexuality is defined as something that is unclean, a dishonoring of the body, a vile passion, something that is against nature and unnatural, shameful, something that occurs when you have a mind that has sunken to a place away from God. It is an act that people engage in when they do not retain God in their knowledge and when they have changed the truth of God for a lie.

[phkrause]

Was there there any homosexuality in the original creation prior to the fall? If that had been a part of God's plan why did He make Adam and Eve, wouldn't Adam and Steve have been more appropriate to address your musing? Or Eve and Arlene? But in either scenario neither couple would have raised Caine, because they would not have been Able.

Lately common sense just isn't as common as it used to be.

 

 

As I mentioned before, obviously not!! Because then, how could God then have asked us to multiple??

[hch]

As I mentioned before, obviously not!! Because then, how could God then have asked us to multiple??

As an RN (now retired), I have cared for HIV patients and held their hand while they were dying in their 20's.

One young man lived with "friends" that were often sitting around in drag (socializing) when I would arrive at the home to care for him. [The female nurses were not comfortable in that setting so I was asked to take the assignment.] I like to think that I gave him high quality care and never went judgmental on him, his roommates, or any of my other HIV patients. But choices have consequences, and they are not always pretty.

I'd like to be settled in the knowledge that everyone was on solid footing, following God's revealed will, and that no one would wake up too late to see that the consequences of their lifestyle choices were but the hurtful thorns rather than the beautiful flowers gracing the garden.

[Dr. Shane]

I think gay marriage is a separate although related topic. I can easily separate the spiritual aspects of a topic from the political but not everyone can.  Two believers may agree on homosexuality not being part of God's plan which is a spiritual belief.  Those two same people may disagree on whether or not the civil government should recognize gay marriage which is a political belief.  As much as I love discussing politics with level-headed people, I like to be very clear if I am talking spirituality or politics.  My comments in this thread have been spiritual as have been most of the people participating in it.  However I do see some going political.