Our Churches and our Schools

[Stan]

Too many of our Schools are grossly underfunded and yet at the same time are draining the local Church's budget so much that the Church can not do outreach..

[Neil D]

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Stan Jensen said:

Too many of our Schools are grossly underfunded and yet at the same time are draining the local Church's budget so much that the Church can not do outreach..

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The need to win the lottery is great as long as it is used to fund our schools....

[cricket]

It is not expensive to do outreach. In fact, anyone can do it in their spare time--just go to your neighbors and reach!

Also, schools don't have to be costly. Reduce the number of teachers in the church school down to one--one effective teacher. If that doesn't work, try homeschooling. The tuition is free!

[Dr. Shane]

Adventist education is an impotant part of raising children in the Lord - which is what parents promise to do when they dedicate their children. Unfortunatly many parents cannot afford to send their children to Adventist schools.

I don't know what the answer is. My wife plans to start working when our children go off to school to help pay for the tuition. That is less than an ideal solution but is quite prectical. The cost of academies is so expensive we will probbally have to consider sending them to one in Mexico or one that isn't Advenstist.

[Neil D]

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It is not expensive to do outreach. In fact, anyone can do it in their spare time--just go to your neighbors and reach!

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True...Just getting to know your neighbors would be a start.

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Also, schools don't have to be costly. Reduce the number of teachers in the church school down to one--one effective teacher. If that doesn't work, try homeschooling. The tuition is free!

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Several thoughts on this....

First, I heard a couple of years ago, that our denomination, costs less to educate thier children [thru highschool] than most public schools.

Second, suggesting that we reduce the number of teachers down in our schools is not taking into account of the amount of work that teachers are currently doing to fulfill the number of regulations required by local and state and federal agencies and still allow the children to hear the gospel. IMHO, to suggest this is to speak from an uninformed point of view.

Third, as Lyndell can attest to, the amount of work a teacher does, if paid minimum wage, would not cover the salary that we current pay our teachers. Historically, public school teachers are paid more...unless our teachers have children in school where the subsidy for the teachers children have to be calculated into the pay of the teachers. A thrifty conference would prefer to hire teachers who are without children, or have children already out of school.

Fourth, homeschooling is NOT free. Most regulated homeschool have tutition costs, most higher than current SDA school costs. If you are teaching your children from a curriculum, you paid something for it. If you are not teaching your children from a curriculem, chances are that your child is behind in thier learning and are not well rounded in thier learning abilities.

[Dr. Shane]

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Fourth, homeschooling is NOT free.

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The other cost to homeschooling is what economists call "opportunity cost". That is the cost of lost wages. The parent doing the homeschooling could be working and earning money. The problem is some of our schools are so expensive it is cheaper to homeschool the children.

Consider a family with 3 children and tuition of $300/month. That would mean $900/month to send the children to school. If an unskilled mother gets a job at a local retailer or resturant making $5.50/hour and works fulltime she will only make $880 gross.

One of the big reasons my wife and I decided to only have two children was so we could afford to send them to Adventist school.

[Clio]

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Neil D said:

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It is not expensive to do outreach. In fact, anyone can do it in their spare time--just go to your neighbors and reach!

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True...Just getting to know your neighbors would be a start.

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Also, schools don't have to be costly. Reduce the number of teachers in the church school down to one--one effective teacher. If that doesn't work, try homeschooling. The tuition is free!

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Several thoughts on this....

First, I heard a couple of years ago, that our denomination, costs less to educate thier children [thru highschool] than most public schools.

Second, suggesting that we reduce the number of teachers down in our schools is not taking into account of the amount of work that teachers are currently doing to fulfill the number of regulations required by local and state and federal agencies and still allow the children to hear the gospel. IMHO, to suggest this is to speak from an uninformed point of view.

Third, as Lyndell can attest to, the amount of work a teacher does, if paid minimum wage, would not cover the salary that we current pay our teachers. Historically, public school teachers are paid more...unless our teachers have children in school where the subsidy for the teachers children have to be calculated into the pay of the teachers. A thrifty conference would prefer to hire teachers who are without children, or have children already out of school.

Fourth, homeschooling is NOT free. Most regulated homeschool have tutition costs, most higher than current SDA school costs. If you are teaching your children from a curriculum, you paid something for it. If you are not teaching your children from a curriculem, chances are that your child is behind in thier learning and are not well rounded in thier learning abilities.

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Over generalizations there Neil. We live in an area where my kids receive homeschooling curriculum from the state, have their coursework overseen by a licensed and credentialed teacher in addition to myself, and the curriculum is funded by monies that would have gone to the high school if my child attended.

She takes standardized national tests every year to make sure her education is up to par. My eldest graduated high school two years early. My son will graduate right on track and my youngest will most likely graduate two years early.

We couldn't afford church school, but all three of mine are strong believers in Jesus and model their lives after His. Not the artificial hothouse variety of SDA ghetto living that so often accompanies a solely SDA education.

When we dedicate our children to Jesus, we are NOT promising to send them to SDA schools, and support only SDA institutions. We are promising to raise them to have a relationship with Jesus. Not a religion.

Jesus didn't attend the church schools of His day, and He turned out pretty ok! Mary did an awesome job. We have the same abilities she had. All it takes is focus and attention.

Clio

[Neil D]

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Over generalizations there Neil. We live in an area where my kids receive homeschooling curriculum from the state, have their coursework overseen by a licensed and credentialed teacher in addition to myself, and the curriculum is funded by monies that would have gone to the high school if my child attended.

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We looked at homeschooling our children while we were in Idaho. Depending upon the county, homeschooling was generally frowned upon and there was NO public school teacher to supervise the curriculem.

Our experience in Washington was that since our children were already in the educational system [either private or public] there was NO reason for homeschooling, even though my wife has her Master's in teaching. Same with Oregon. It depends upon the local county, and local state requirments. And some officials will take a "let's experiment and see if it works" attitude. Just depends upon the local superitendant of schools. That has been our experience.

I have not gone to Alaska...so don't know the requirements.

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Jesus didn't attend the church schools of His day, and He turned out pretty ok! Mary did an awesome job. We have the same abilities she had. All it takes is focus and attention.

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My wife evaluates kids at the SDA schools. She has a few homeschoolers that she works with. Most people who homeschool their kids, the first few years, have not taught thier kids to optimise thier learning abilities, according to her experience. In most cases, she finds them sub grade level for thier age. IOWs, a child, who by age, would be in the 3rd grade, will read at second grade level and a few months and be first grade level in math. Or that same child could be a 4th grade reader, but a 2nd grade math student and his maturaty could be that of a 2nd grader. And usually, the parent who brings thier child to see my wife, has a child who is tired of thier parents being teachers and knows how to play the parents to avoid school work. And the parent is exhausted in attempting to keep up with the child.

[Clio]

Yikes... what a difference from state to state.

Homeschooling is an accepted way for children to get their educations here. There are significant distance learning issues in this state due to the lack of road systems, the isolated rural villages, and the high numbers of people who live off the beaten path. There are about 100 children who travel to Fairbanks every April for 4 days of state mandated testing.

There are huge numbers of people who live in town who choose to homeschool because this state makes it so easy, simple, and a positive education choice.

I know of 4 people besides myself, who work where I do, who homeschool.

I'm sorry where you've looked into it, it's been such a difficult choice. I know many, many people who homeschool in the lower 48 as well. And though it can be difficult, all of them say they would do it no other way.

I'm part of a homeschooling network with various fora, resource websites, organizations, and even "real-life" get togethers in different areas. We have homeschoolers who participate from all 50 states.

Clio

[Taylor]

I have worked at SDA schools in my career and it is true, that most teachers are dedicated and work hard long hours. I am not sure there is an easy solution to this problem. Sometimes enrollment is down as people just can't seem to figure out how to afford Adventist Education so their kids attend public schools. It used to be possible, such as when my parents were in school, to literally work your way through school. Now-a-days if you don't have some incredible skill, you can work all you want and help your school bill but you won't make the needed $10-$20,000 per year for Academy or College education.

At one school where I worked they came up with what I thought was a rather neat idea. They kids worked on campus (it was a boarding Academy), but before they came to school, they would get sponsors who would sponsor them for so much per every hour that the student worked on campus. Let's say that the student was given a minimum wage job (which ends up being a write-off on their bill), on campus which paid, lets say $5.00 per hour (or whatever the rate was then). They could effectively raise their wage by getting sponsors. Some would sponsor them just 10 cents per hour that they worked, others were able to sponsor them $2-3.00 for every hour that they worked. So we had students who were making $10-$12.00 per hour. This was rewarding them for working and helped them pay off their school bill. I think more schools should adopt this program.

[cricket]

Neil,

It has been my experience that my homeschooled children are above grade level and that the schooling the same children received in Adventist, public and Lutheran schools was insufficient.

It is pure ignorance on your part to assume that I have developed an uninformed opinion. (I have seen greater results in a one-room school than I have in a school with more than three teachers--both Adventist settings.) It is an ignorant and uninformed opinion that cannot see that there are certain situations in which the Adventist system is far from ideal.

Also, in reference to your comment about there being NO reason to homeschool might have been true from your standpoint. Even so, there are always good reasons to homeschool children--even when the public and private schools are above the par of the rest of the nation.

As parents, it is our job to see to it that our children receive the best education possible. If, for any reason, we find that the other options are insufficient, homeschooling is not an unreasonable way to go.

QB

[bonnie]

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QBJFN said:

Neil,

It has been my experience that my homeschooled children are above grade level and that the schooling the same children received in Adventist, public and Lutheran schools was insufficient.

It is pure ignorance on your part to assume that I have developed an uninformed opinion. (I have seen greater results in a one-room school than I have in a school with more than three teachers--both Adventist settings.) It is an ignorant and uninformed opinion that cannot see that there are certain situations in which the Adventist system is far from ideal.

Also, in reference to your comment about there being NO reason to homeschool might have been true from your standpoint. Even so, there are always good reasons to homeschool children--even when the public and private schools are above the par of the rest of the nation.

As parents, it is our job to see to it that our children receive the best education possible. If, for any reason, we find that the other options are insufficient, homeschooling is not an unreasonable way to go.

QB

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You are right on the money. Most any information that is out there supports the premise that homeschooled children do as well or better scholastically than those that attend public or private schools.

If a parent has the patience and the focus it is economical, not costing anywhere near the amount even a public school can for the different activities you end up paying for. Almost without fail a student taught by a dedicated parent scores at least a grade level higher if not two or three grades more.

Not all parents can do the job, but then not all teachers can either, they are paid and by the time you find they can't you usually have lost a year.

[Neil D]

QB,

I replied to this post, but found that it was very lengthy. So I deleted it. Here is the shorten verson of what I intended to say.

Never meant to imply that you were not informed.

Agree that we need to give the best education available to our children.

My wife's experience and my observation are not the standard and never were ment to impy that they were. We deal with childen, and parents and see all sorts of anadoctal evidence that will make anyone think twice about thier values and goals.

[CyberGuy]

To learn more Adventist Homeschooling goto

http://www.adventisthomeducator.org/

It is a great program.

[cricket]

<==== Thanks, Neil, for making me feel better about this thread!!!

[cricket]

CG,

I've seen that website before and have been in contact with Mrs. Shewmake. It's been a while--it was before the GC Session (I'd hoped to get her to St. Louis and help out with some information for Session attendees). Are you any more familiar with her program? Is she still thriving in the homeschooling industry?

QB

[Gail]

This subject always piques my interest. I also would like to attest that homeschooling works a lot better than any classroom when it works. My boys were both promoted a grade when they entered an SDA school from where they were at home

And that was with me making up their curriculum myself, using a chart of concepts from World Book as my guide

As far as SDA schools go, one solution is to have a work program on the campus using kidpower as young as the child can do the work. Work was one of the most practical aspects of our homeschooling experience

[CyberGuy]

One conference The Nevada Utah Conference does not have any senior SDA academies within its borders. It supports the home schooling entirely. It has one room schools with one teacher with many grades in various places throughout the conference with materials coming from home schooling. It seems to work. That way a senior academy with the large subsidies is not neccessary.

[CyberGuy]

When I was in the mission field with my parents We were homeschooled. We had one teacher with 12 students in seven grades from Grade 1 to 8. Our materials came from the GC supported Home schooling. I was in grade 3 to 7 in that mission school. When I came home I had a reading and comprehension of grade 13. I was in Grade 8. Reading was our entertainment. No TV there.

[Planey]

As a teacher I would like to thnk you all for your vote of confidence. It is reassuring to realise that the large number of years I spent studying to become an educator was just time wasted.

Perhaps it shows how misguided the Israelites were when they instituted the schools of the prophets. Surely inspiration should have revealed to them how much more efficacious it would be to homeschool instead.

Graeme

PS

And how humiliated and chagrined Bravus must feel - after all, he trains even more teachers!

[Clio]

Well Planey, I'm sorry for that. I really am. But, I don't know what the answer is. I do know this. The schools of the prophets had for students young adults. Not little children.

There is a difference.

Now... as far as a Christian education goes? I'm sure there are many excellent teachers in SDA schools. I haven't met any since 1975 though.

But I've only attended SDA schools in the US except for Collonges. And that doesn't really count because as a young adult, I was responsible for my own learning, and how I interacted with the teachers was totally different than how I interacted with teachers as a child.

Is it a terrible thing to point out that children learn better in a one on one situation where the parent can filter what the child is exposed to before their judgement and capacity to determine right from wrong is fully developed? I don't think so.

Group schooling for young children came about because there were so many illiterate parents who spent most of their time trying to put food on the table and clothes on their child's back. At least in this country for most people. Up until the 1800's, school was a rich man's game.

I don't think group schooling left to public educators or even the educators I've seen in the SDA church is how I would choose to educate my kids at all, if I had it to do over again. I yanked them from the classrooms in favor of homeschooling waaaaaay too late.

Should I "shet mah mouth" and sit down quietly for fear of offending the teachers in the group? I don't think that's a good idea either. The truth is, there are problems with the educational system, and homeschooling is a good way around them.

Clio

[Gail]

I don't think that your training is for naught, Graeme. The homeschooling option is not for everyone. At the academy where my husband teaches there are many kids from dysfunctional homes and they are a challenge even for the professionals. I know many teachers and I wouldn't want to knock any of their abilities and qualifications

Having said that, we who home educated received our share of disdain because others thought we could not do it properly. I could see the value of not only the church school but the public school option for some, and had friends who were educated in all these spheres

There are many factors which contribute to the success of a child's experience.

[bevin]

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As a teacher I would like to thnk you all for your vote of confidence. It is reassuring to realise that the large number of years I spent studying to become an educator was just time wasted.

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Perhaps if you had home-schooled rather than going to a university

I have noticed that good students from good homes do well regardless of how they are schooled - provided they have access to good books.

A good teacher, on the other hand, can cause poor students from poor homes to do well. This is an extremely valuable contribution to the individual and society because it breaks the cycle of poverty.

/Bevin

[Clio]

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Gail said:

I don't think that your training is for naught, Graeme. The homeschooling option is not for everyone. At the academy where my husband teaches there are many kids from dysfunctional homes and they are a challenge even for the professionals. I know many teachers and I wouldn't want to knock any of their abilities and qualifications

Having said that, we who home educated received our share of disdain because others thought we could not do it properly. I could see the value of not only the church school but the public school option for some, and had friends who were educated in all these spheres

There are many factors which contribute to the success of a child's experience.

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Gail, your point regarding kids from dysfunctional families and the challenges they represent is well taken. And you are right that homeschooling is not for everyone.

It requires a level of committment that some parents just can't give, through no fault of their own. It may be due to dysfunctional family issues, it may be due to catastrophic health issues, it may be simply due to a lack of education, training, and development in their own lives.

Teachers DO fill an important role in many children's lives and they are necessary. We need to pay them better, we need to support them more, we as a society need to raise the standard in the area of our children's educations.

Unfortunately, most often the way this is accomplished is to throw money at the problem. Not in a way that promotes improvement, but rather indiscriminately, where the thinking seems to be more money = improved education.

Alaska allots $4100 per child per school year for homeschooling. It is deposited in an account with whatever homeschool program the child is enrolled in through the state education system. With expert guidance from one of the on staff licensed teachers, my child and I developed the curriculum she would pursue this year. We purchased the supplies and books from her allotment account through the homeschooling program. We selected a program where she does the book work, then submits her work for instant grading to the University of Missouri over the internet.

She must go in to the homeschooling program office for the proctoring of her mid-terms and finals, turn in sample portfolios of work to be evaluated by the local teachers, and log her time with regard to her PE and Health classes.

However, since we are homeschooling, in addition to the "standard" curriculum, she is doing the following.

PE is not just the physical exercise received at school. She has several textbooks, a program of physical activities, as well as term papers due in each semester on different physical health related topics from which she must choose a sub-topic for her paper.

Health is not limited to the standard health class taught in high school or academy. She has her text book and the usual, but she also has structured, custom designed course work that includes for credit, volunteer efforts at the local hospital and personal care attendant training through the state of Alaska's Access Alaska program.

Her business and economics elective includes some coursework, but also includes hands on experience working in the business office of an automotive shop. There are certain skills and activities which she must master, and the owner had to agree to be in "teaching mode" at least 10 hours a week in order for this to qualify.

Part of her science credit will come from 8 hours of science lectures in the evening at the University. She's studying biology this year, and one of the topics will be "Bear Safety in Alaska". It's a two hour lecture, but I expect she will really enjoy it. She's a fisherman, berry-picker, and gold-dredger in the summertime, which puts her smack in the middle of bear habitat all summer long. Not only will she get credit for her schoolwork, but she will be a better bush resident, and safer for knowing how to move, live, and harvest safely in ALaskan bear country.

Last year part of her course work included regular visits to places like the Poker Flats Rocket Range, Fort Knox Gold Mine, and the Prospecting shop, since her science last year was Earth Science. At the prospecting shop, the owner is also a professor at the University. She learned about grading gemstones, identifying gemstones, geological formations, plate tectonics, and the joys of rock-hounding from someone truly passionate about it, with in-depth, university level academic and field knowledge.

By the time she graduates from highscool, she will have references and experience in the health care field, with the appropriate credentials to earn a livable wage as either a Certified Nurse's Assistant or a Personal Care Attendant. She will also have the education, experience, and references to make a liveable wage in an office environment or as an auto mechanic.

She has discovered a love of painting cars. And is busily trying to convince me that as a further part of her automotive industry education she should be allowed to develop a course that includes two semesters of apprenticeship at the best custom auto paint shop in town. We know the lead artist there, and he made the mistake of telling her he would be glad to teach her..... But, she DOES get her driver's license in 9 months, and with her own wheels, such an arrangement would definitely be possible, since I wouldn't have to "take" her anywhere. She's also interested in Sports Medicine, and is contemplating asking my orthopedic surgeon if there's some way she could work hands on learning through his office into her course work her junior or senior year.

Homeschooling teaches something NO traditional school can. It teaches the child that learning can be fun, AND how to be a learner in whatever situation one finds oneself in. It teaches them that it is NOT necessary to sit in a classroom to learn. It teaches them to try new things, to face new challenges, to think critically, quickly and on their feet. It teaches them real world skills and knowledge that far exceed what is available in the artificial environment of a classroom, no matter the excellence of their teacher.

When my girls were in middle school, home economics was one of their courses. We designed the course together and had it approved by their teacher/counselor with the homeschooling program. During those two years both my girls learned how to crochet, knit, quilt, and tat. They both learned nutrition basics, meal-planning, and cooking. Part of their final that year was to plan a meal, identify the nutritional content of the meal, shop for the meal, cook it, and serve it. Pictures of the meal along with the menu, nutritional planning, grocery receipt and reviews by those eating what they had prepared were submitted in their work portfolio.

I don't know what the answers are for the entire system, but I do know that my kids are better prepared for living life, supporting themselves, and contributing to both society and to Abba's work than had they been left in traditional schools.

Clio

[cricket]

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Perhaps it shows how misguided the Israelites were when they instituted the schools of the prophets. Surely inspiration should have revealed to them how much more efficacious it would be to homeschool instead.

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Graeme,

There are good teachers, and bad teachers. There are good homeschooling parents, and bad ones. There are good classrooms, and there are bad ones.

Homeschooling has its advantages and disadvantages; as does a typical classroom setting. Homeschooling is not right for everyone, but then again, education in a typical classroom setting is not right for everyone.

When I first addressed the issue of homeschooling, Neil came down pretty hard on the concept. Just as it is wrong to say that homeschooling is "usually" bad, it is wrong to say that a typical classroom setting is "usually" bad.

Each and every case is different.

I have seen only two instances where a typical classroom setting worked in favor for my own children. When those settings were available to my children, we used them. There is no viable option for schooling our (mine, specifically) children at this time other than homeschooling.

I am fairly certain, that if you, Graeme, were to move to St. Louis and teach in our Adventist system, I would likely have my children back "in the classroom."

Truly, it is not a lack of confidence in all educators--it is a lack of confidence in some. Right now, it is a lack of confidence in the ones that are available to me.

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Perhaps it shows how misguided the Israelites were when they instituted the schools of the prophets. Surely inspiration should have revealed to them how much more efficacious it would be to homeschool instead.

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Just because you pulled this card, I want to share with you a card in my hand: Jesus was taught at home. That is to say, Jesus was homeschooled. He fared better than any of us.

QB