Without a Mediator

[BobRyan]

"I saw the Father rise from the throne and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down.  Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arise with him.  I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness."  Early Writings pg 55

To the "little flock" on earth who follow, by faith, Jesus movement into the MHP,  Jesus says, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom;."    EW pg 55

I can actually agree with these two quotations.

Probation closes when the High Priest enters the MHP on the Day of Atonement.  Hence - in her "vision",  "not one ray of light" passed to the careless multitude after Jesus moved to the MHP.   The early pioneers got that part right the first time.  They believed that probation had closed.  Where they got it wrong, was in the timing.  It was NOT YET the end of the 2300 evening/morning. 

I think it was Jackson, on the "Cleansing of the Sanctuary" thread, who said that the Daniel 7 Judgment is not about Jesus being given the dominion.  Mrs. White - it would seem - disagrees. 

Ellen White does not say that probation closes when Christ enters the MHP.

And she does not say that sins can be forgiven once probation as closed and the Rev 16 7 last plagues start to fall.

[8thdaypriest]

It makes no sense for Jesus to give His life in our place, give us His righteousness, and then in the end leave us to stand on our own?  NOT GOOD NEWS!!!  Salvation by works!!!

Yes - I personally believe it will be the unrepentant and rebellious who will "stand without a mediator.  Their sins will NOT be forgiven. 

[8thdaypriest]

Ellen White does not say that probation closes when Christ enters the MHP.

And she does not say that sins can be forgiven once probation as closed and the Rev 16 7 last plagues start to fall.

Mrs White initially believed that probation HAD closed because Jesus had entered the MHP.  This belief continued for 7 years!!  Mrs White even had visions confirming the "closed door" of salvation.  Then children began to reach the age of accountability, and the Advent pioneers changed their teaching. 

    “Others [open door Adventists] rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far.  The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below.  It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.  They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus/ coming. (From Ellen White’s first vision received in December 1844. Published as “To the Remnant Scatter Abroad,” in “A word to the Little Flock, May 30, 1847, p.14.)

    Note: The above passage shows Mrs. White’s teaching that those who rejected the Millerite message or its 1844 reinterpretation were deemed lost.  They were left “in perfect darkness.”  It was impossible for them to get back on the path to the City.  The vision also teaches that God had already “rejected” “all of the wicked world” - probation had closed.  James and Ellen White maintained this belief, with only slight changes from December 1844, the date of her first vision, until October 22, 1851, a period of just over seven years.

    In February of 1845 Mrs. White received another vision confirming the closed door.  She speaks of this vision in a letter to Joseph Bates, written in 1848.  The vision took place while she was in a meeting with believers who had not accepted the doctrine of the shut door.  Because of the vision given to her at that moment, the group - including a woman teacher who had been very opposed - accepted the shut door doctrine. The following is a  passage from the letter written by Mrs. White to Joseph Bates.

    “The view about the Bridegroom’s coming I had about the middle of February, 1845, while in Exeter, Maine, in meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others.  Many of them did not believe in the shut door.  I suffered much at the commencement of the meeting.  Unbelief [in the shut door] seemed to be on every hand.  
    There was one sister there that was called very spiritual.  She traveled and [had] been a powerful preacher the most of the time for twenty years. She had been truly a mother in Israel.  But a division had risen in the band on the shut door.  She had great sympathy, and could not believe the door was shut.  I had known nothing of their difference.”
    “At length my soul seemed to be in an agony, and while she was talking I feel from my chair to the floor. It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from His mediatorial throne and going to the holiest, the Bridegroom to receive His kingdom.  They all said it was entirely new to them.  The Lord worked in mighty power, setting the truth home to their hearts.

    Sister Durben knew what the power of the Lord was, for she had felt it many times; and a short time after I fell she was struck down, and fell to the floor, crying to God to have mercy on her.  When I came out of vision, my ears were saluted with Sister Durben’s singing and shouting with a loud voice.  
    Most of them received the vision, and were settled upon the shut door. Previous to this I had no light on the coming of the Bridegroom, but had expected Him to come to this earth to deliver His people on the tenth day of the seventh month.  I did not hear a lecture or a word in any way relating to the Bridegroom’s going to the Holiest.”
Manuscript Releases Volume Five pg.97 - “Three Early Letters”

    Comment:  The reason for the explanation given in the last paragraph was a paper, published by Mr. Joseph Turner, which taught exactly the “truth” given to Ellen White in her vision, that the door of probation had closed when Christ entered the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary.  This paper was published before Ellen White’s “vision.”  A copy of the paper was in Ellen White’s house, but she claimed never to have read it, prior to her own vision.  (A.L.White, “Ellen G. White and the Shut Door Question,” Letter 3, 1847, pp. 49-51. Printed in Ford, “Daniel 8:14,” pp.417-419.)

[BobRyan]

Ellen White does not say that probation closes when Christ enters the MHP.

And she does not say that sins can be forgiven once probation as closed and the Rev 16 7 last plagues start to fall.

And of course by that I mean that she never published any statements to that effect, So imagination is all one would have to go on if one were to try to put that on her.

Mrs White initially believed that probation HAD closed because Jesus had entered the MHP.  This belief continued for 7 years!!  Mrs White even had visions confirming the "closed door" of salvation.

If you have an actual reference for Ellen White claiming that God gave her a vision saying that probation for mankind closed when Christ entered the MHP - then let us all have access to it.

Instead what you present to us is that like the Jews who rejected the light they had in their day, certain of people who had light and rejected it were shutting of further light from themselves. At the the same time others "were continually leaving the companies that were in darkness and joining the free company".

 

 

Then children began to reach the age of accountability, and the Advent pioneers changed their teaching. 

    “Others [open door Adventists] rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far.  The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below.  It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.  They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus/ coming. (From Ellen White’s first vision received in December 1844. Published as “To the Remnant Scatter Abroad,” in “A word to the Little Flock, May 30, 1847, p.14.)

1. "open door Adventist" is not in the text.

2. That vision in Early Writings goes something like this -

I saw a number of companies that seemed to be bound together by cords. Many in these companies were in total darkness; their eyes were directed downward to the earth, and there seemed to be no connection between them and Jesus. But scattered through these different companies were persons whose countenances looked light, and whose eyes were raised to heaven. Beams of light from Jesus, like rays from the sun, were imparted to them. An angel bade me look carefully, and I saw an angel watching over every one of those who had a ray of light, while evil angels surrounded those who were in darkness. I heard the voice of an angel cry, “Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come.” {EW 240.1}

A glorious light then rested down upon these companies, to enlighten all who would receive it. Some of those who were in darkness received the light and rejoiced. Others resisted the light from heaven, saying that it was sent to lead them astray. The light passed away from them, and they were left in darkness. Those who had received the light from Jesus joyfully cherished the increase of precious light which was shed upon them. Their faces beamed with holy joy, while their gaze was directed upward to Jesus with intense interest, and their voices were heard in harmony with the voice of the angel, “Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come.” As they raised this cry, I saw those who were in darkness thrusting them with side and with shoulder. Then many who cherished the sacred light, broke the cords which confined them and stood out separated from those companies. As they were doing this, men belonging to the different companies and revered by them passed through, some with pleasing words, and others with wrathful looks and threatening gestures, and fastened the cords which were weakening. These men were constantly saying, “God is with us. We stand in the light. We have the truth.” I inquired who these men were, and was told that they were ministers and leading men who had rejected the light themselves, and were unwilling that others should receive it. {EW 240.2}

I saw those who cherished the light looking upward with ardent desire, expecting Jesus to come and take them to Himself. Soon a cloud passed over them, and their faces were sorrowful. I inquired the cause of this cloud and was shown that it was their disappointment. The time when they expected their Saviour had passed, and Jesus had not come. As discouragement settled upon the waiting ones, the ministers and leading men whom I had before noticed, rejoiced, and all those who had rejected the light triumphed greatly, while Satan and his evil angels also exulted. {EW 241.1}

Then I heard the voice of another angel saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen!” A light shone upon those desponding ones, and with ardent desires for His appearing, they again fixed their eyes upon Jesus. I saw a number of angels conversing with the one who had cried, “Babylon is fallen,” and these united with him in the cry, “Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.” The musical voices of these angels seemed to reach everywhere. An exceedingly bright and glorious light shone around those who had cherished the light which had been imparted to them. Their faces shone with excellent glory, and they united with the angels in the cry, “Behold, the Bridegroom cometh.” As they harmoniously raised the cry among the different companies, those who rejected the light pushed them and with angry looks scorned and derided them. But angels of God wafted their wings over the persecuted ones, while Satan and his angels were seeking to press their darkness around them, to lead them to reject the light from heaven. {EW 241.2}

Then I heard a voice saying to those who had been pushed and derided, “Come out from among them, and touch not the unclean.” In obedience to this voice, a large number broke the cords which bound them, and leaving the companies that were in darkness, joined those who had previously gained their freedom, and joyfully united their voices with them. I heard the voice of earnest, agonizing prayer from a few who still remained with the companies that were in darkness. The ministers and leading men were passing around in these different companies, fastening the cords more firmly; but still I heard this voice of earnest prayer. Then I saw those who had been praying reach out their hands for help toward the united company who were free, rejoicing in God. The answer from them, as they earnestly looked to heaven, and pointed upward, was, “Come out from among them, and be separate.” I saw individuals struggling for freedom, and at last they broke the cords that bound them. They resisted the efforts which were made to fasten the cords tighter and refused to heed the repeated assertions: “God is with us.” “We have the truth with us.” {EW 242.1}

 

Persons were continually leaving the companies that were in darkness and joining the free company, who appeared to be in an open field raised above the earth. Their gaze was directed upward, the glory of God rested upon them, and they joyfully shouted His praise.
 

=====================================================

 

How instructive that the very vision you are quoting shows continued evangelism -- just when you wanted to claim it was the close of probation.

 

That story of yours did not have much life to it.

 

    Note: The above passage shows Mrs. White’s teaching that those who rejected the Millerite message or its 1844 reinterpretation were deemed lost.  They were left “in perfect darkness.”  It was impossible for them to get back on the path to the City.  The vision also teaches that God had already “rejected” “all of the wicked world” - probation had closed.  James and Ellen White maintained this belief, with only slight changes from December 1844, the date of her first vision, until October 22, 1851, a period of just over seven years.

    In February of 1845 Mrs. White received another vision confirming the closed door.  She speaks of this vision in a letter to Joseph Bates, written in 1848.  The vision took place while she was in a meeting with believers who had not accepted the doctrine of the shut door.  Because of the vision given to her at that moment, the group - including a woman teacher who had been very opposed - accepted the shut door doctrine. The following is a  passage from the letter written by Mrs. White to Joseph Bates.

    “The view about the Bridegroom’s coming I had about the middle of February, 1845, while in Exeter, Maine, in meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others.  Many of them did not believe in the shut door.  I suffered much at the commencement of the meeting.  Unbelief [in the shut door] seemed to be on every hand.  
    There was one sister there that was called very spiritual.  She traveled and [had] been a powerful preacher the most of the time for twenty years. She had been truly a mother in Israel.  But a division had risen in the band on the shut door.  She had great sympathy, and could not believe the door was shut.  I had known nothing of their difference.”
    “At length my soul seemed to be in an agony, and while she was talking I feel from my chair to the floor. It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from His mediatorial throne and going to the holiest, the Bridegroom to receive His kingdom.  They all said it was entirely new to them.  The Lord worked in mighty power, setting the truth home to their hearts.

    Sister Durben knew what the power of the Lord was, for she had felt it many times; and a short time after I fell she was struck down, and fell to the floor, crying to God to have mercy on her.  When I came out of vision, my ears were saluted with Sister Durben’s singing and shouting with a loud voice.  
    Most of them received the vision, and were settled upon the shut door. Previous to this I had no light on the coming of the Bridegroom, but had expected Him to come to this earth to deliver His people on the tenth day of the seventh month.  I did not hear a lecture or a word in any way relating to the Bridegroom’s going to the Holiest.”
Manuscript Releases Volume Five pg.97 - “Three Early Letters”

Sadly you are using a quote without context.

 

The context for that statement in 5MR was one paragraph up -- you simply do not use it hoping this will give life to the story you are promoting.

 

Here is what you do not quote - so as to give the impression you are seeking. -- one page away from your text.

"

I saw the commandments of God and shut door could not be separated. I saw the time for the commandments of God to shine out to His people was when the door was opening in the inner apartment of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door in the outer apartment and opened the door in the inner apartment and passed into the Most Holy Place, and the faith of Israel now reaches within the second veil where Jesus now stands by the ark. I saw that Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place and no man can shut it; and that since Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place the commandments have been shining out and God has been testing His people on the holy Sabbath.—Letter 5, 1849, pp. 1-3. (To Brother and Sister Hastings, March 24-30, 1849.) {5MR 94.2}

Released September 27, 1971."

 

As for why that letter was written

that same MR gives the details -- more info you seem to not want to quote....

 

Brother Bates, you write in a letter to James something about the Bridegroom’s coming, as stated in the first published visions. By the letter you would like to know whether I had light on the Bridegroom’s coming before I saw it in vision. I can readily answer, No. The Lord showed me the travail of the Advent band and Midnight Cry in December, but He did not show me the Bridegroom’s coming until February following. Perhaps you would like to have me give a statement in relation to both visions. At the time I had the vision of the Midnight Cry I had given it up in the past and thought it future, as also most of the band had. I know not what time J. Turner got out his paper. I knew he had one out and one was in the house, but I knew not what was in it, for I did not read a word in it. I had been, and still was very sick. I took no interest in reading, for it injured my head and made me nervous. After I had the vision and God gave me light, He bade me deliver it to the band, but I shrank from it. I was young, and I thought they would not receive it from me. I disobeyed the Lord, and instead of remaining at home, where the meeting was to be that night, I got in a sleigh in the morning and rode three or four miles and there I found J. T. He merely inquired how I was and if I was in the way of my duty. I said nothing, for I knew I was not. I passed up [to the] chamber and did not see him again for two hours, when he came up, asked if I was to be at meeting that night. I told him, No. He said he wanted to hear my vision and thought it duty for me to go home. I told him I should not. He said no more, but went away. I thought, and told those around me, if I went I should have to come out against his views, thinking he believed with the rest. I had not told any of them what God had shown me, and I did not tell them in what I should cut across his track. {5MR 95.3}

Nothing here supports your accusations about the close of probation for humanity taking place when Christ entered the MHP.

 

    Comment:  The reason for the explanation given in the last paragraph was a paper, published by Mr. Joseph Turner, which taught exactly the “truth” given to Ellen White in her vision, that the door of probation had closed when Christ entered the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary.  This paper was published before Ellen White’s “vision.”  A copy of the paper was in Ellen White’s house, but she claimed never to have read it, prior to her own vision.  (A.L.White, “Ellen G. White and the Shut Door Question,” Letter 3, 1847, pp. 49-51. Printed in Ford, “Daniel 8:14,” pp.417-419.)

As noted in the details quoted by me in this post - it turns out - the facts above do not support your story.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Edited July 20, 2015 by BobRyan

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson and Ryan,

I assumed that you had answers all ready.  I was interested to see what they would be.  Thanks.

I do not find the "answers" personally satisfying.  The Millerites - from /months and years of study, realized that the time of opportunity for forgiveness of sins committed during the year, ENDED when the high priest entered the MHP on the Day of Atonement.  Only those sins which had been confessed over a sin offering and the record carried to the Tabernacle, were atoned for during the ceremony in the MHP.  Mrs White's statement to the contrary just helps to convince me that she was not a prophet of God. 

The Millerites had a right concerning just WHEN the opportunity for individual forgiveness ENDED.  (IMO)  The Millerites (and the early Adventists) got it wrong concerning 1844. 

I do not believe that Jesus entered the MHP of Heaven on October 22, 1844.  I believe that He WILL enter that place, and the "court" scene of Daniel 7, at the very END of this age.

I wanted to know exactly WHAT Adventists believe and WHY they believe it.  You have helped to fill in some information. 

Adventists believe that forgiveness of sins continues WHILE our High Priest is ministering IN the MHP.  They believe this BECAUSE Mrs. White taught this.  I do not believe that this is Biblical. 

[pnattmbtc]

Jackson and Ryan,

I assumed that you had answers all ready.  I was interested to see what they would be.  Thanks.

I do not find the "answers" personally satisfying.  The Millerites - from /months and years of study, realized that the time of opportunity for forgiveness of sins committed during the year, ENDED when the high priest entered the MHP on the Day of Atonement.  Only those sins which had been confessed over a sin offering and the record carried to the Tabernacle, were atoned for during the ceremony in the MHP.  Mrs White's statement to the contrary just helps to convince me that she was not a prophet of God. 

The Millerites had a right concerning just WHEN the opportunity for individual forgiveness ENDED.  (IMO)  The Millerites (and the early Adventists) got it wrong concerning 1844. 

I do not believe that Jesus entered the MHP of Heaven on October 22, 1844.  I believe that He WILL enter that place, and the "court" scene of Daniel 7, at the very END of this age.

I wanted to know exactly WHAT Adventists believe and WHY they believe it.  You have helped to fill in some information. 

Adventists believe that forgiveness of sins continues WHILE our High Priest is ministering IN the MHP.  They believe this BECAUSE Mrs. White taught this.  I do not believe that this is Biblical. 

I don't think you have this right.  I think you should quote something.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel, SDAs do not believe that EGW had a perfect, complete, understanding of every teaching of Scripture.  No human has that, to include you and I and Ellen White.

Can you find some person who beleives that she had a perfect, complete understanding?  Possibly.  But, that is neither SDA teaching, nor should it be.

 

Edited July 22, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[pnattmbtc]

Jackson and Ryan,

I assumed that you had answers all ready.  I was interested to see what they would be.  Thanks.

I do not find the "answers" personally satisfying.  The Millerites - from /months and years of study, realized that the time of opportunity for forgiveness of sins committed during the year, ENDED when the high priest entered the MHP on the Day of Atonement.  Only those sins which had been confessed over a sin offering and the record carried to the Tabernacle, were atoned for during the ceremony in the MHP.  Mrs White's statement to the contrary just helps to convince me that she was not a prophet of God. 

The Millerites had a right concerning just WHEN the opportunity for individual forgiveness ENDED.  (IMO)  The Millerites (and the early Adventists) got it wrong concerning 1844. 

I do not believe that Jesus entered the MHP of Heaven on October 22, 1844.  I believe that He WILL enter that place, and the "court" scene of Daniel 7, at the very END of this age.

I wanted to know exactly WHAT Adventists believe and WHY they believe it.  You have helped to fill in some information. 

Adventists believe that forgiveness of sins continues WHILE our High Priest is ministering IN the MHP.  They believe this BECAUSE Mrs. White taught this.  I do not believe that this is Biblical. 

I realize, looking at this again, that my comment isn't clear, when I said I don't think you have this right and you should quote something.  I was speaking in regards to what you are saying about the Millerites.

Regarding Ellen White's being a prophet, why would you choose such an esoteric subject as this to make such a decision?  I became convinced Ellen White was a prophetess by reading "The Desire of Age".  I wasn't an Adventist, and no one told me she was supposed to be a prophetess, I just read the book, and thought to myself, "This person must be a prophet". 

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel, the only reason I had a ready reply is because i have heard these kinds of criticisms over and over from those looking for something to justify their rejection of the Adventist message.

You appear more interested in finding reasons to reject Adventism than in just studying scripture and let it lead where it may. This became particularly evident to me in the thread on the 70 weeks of Daniel where it is clear that the 70th week refers to Jesus' ministry and death , but you rejected that because it had implications (day for a year) that would lead to 1844. So rather than accept the historical interpretation of the 70 weeks, you split off the 70th week thereby making the 70 week prophecy no longer 70 weeks, turning the prophecy on its head.. Others on that thread did the same.

Now in this thread you earlier stated that the righteous always have a mediator , but it is the unrighteous who do not. But in your answer above you state that when Jesus is in the MHP there can be no forgiveness of sins so  all are without a mediator.  Do you not see the contradiction?

Jackson,

I try - not to use the "you" word.  As in - You do this.  or You have this agenda.  or This is what you are trying to do.  I feel that type of language is a personal attack.  I could just ignore it, and keep posting my opinions, but I feel  that personal attacks should be called what they are.  Personal attacks are a way is discrediting a person, so as to dismiss him/her.  It has been my experience that folks with strong arguments for their position, do not usually resort to personal attacks. 

This is a forum.  I realize that it is an Adventist forum, but from what I understand, folks with differing opinions are invited to post.  To disagree on a point of doctrine is NOT an attack upon the whole of Adventist teaching.  If every disagreement is labeled an "attack", then this forum would become like others, which do not allow such "attacks". 

I disagree with the Adventist interpretation of the 2300 evening/mornings.  In my opinion, we do NOT YET have the full understanding of that prophecy.  The Book of Daniel was sealed - after all - until the "time of the end".  Adventists say that "the time of the end" began back in 1844.  I disagree.  That is my opinion. 

Because I have an opinion, you say that I have an agenda to overturn everything Adventist.  I actually agree with most of what Adventism teaches.  I believe we should rest on the Sabbath, and keep all of the 10 Commandments.  I believe that we are saved by grace, but our reward will be based upon our obedience to the Law of God.   I believe the lost will be judged by their disobedience to the Law of God.   I believe the earth will be desolate and lifeless during the 7th millennium.  I do NOT agree that our God is a trinity of three divine beings, but then neither did the Adventists for the first 50 years.  I believe that the Feasts were prophecy, and that the Day of Atonement prophecy would/will be fulfilled.  (That agrees with Adventism.)  The scapegoat has NOT YET been banished to the uninhabited place, so at least that part of the Day of Atonement prophecy - we would agree - is future.

The reason that I continue to dialog, is to learn.  Where my arguments are weak, I WANT to see it.  That sends me back to study more deeply, or to rewrite, so that I can express my opinion more clearly.  So - I thank you for pointing out contradictions or inconsistencies.  I will work on those. 

[Gregory Matthews]

In my experience with Rachel, I find that she has spent much time  in study to reach he  conclusions.  Coming from that time spent in study, I find her to have a commitment to what she believes to be Biblical doctrine.  But, I reject any suggestion that she studies Scripture just to find how it supports her view.  I believe that she is open to the discovery of Biblical truth, wherever it may lead.

She and I do disagree on some points.  But, this is just part of our human condition.  No human has a full and complete understanding of truth.

 

She is welcome to come here and participate in our discussions.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[8thdaypriest]

In my experience with Rachel, I find that she has spent much time  in study to reach he  conclusions.  Coming from that time spent in study, I find her to have a commitment to what she believes to be Biblical doctrine.  But, I reject any suggestion that she studies Scripture just to find how it supports her view.  I believe that she is open to the discovery of Biblical truth, wherever it may lead.

She and I do disagree on some points.  But, this is just part of our human condition.  No human has a full and complete understanding of truth.

 

She is welcome to come here and participate in our discussions.

Thank you Gregory.  I just want to find what is true. 

I seriously doubt Ellen White, therefore I do not give any consideration to writings published under her name.  I want to understand what the Bible says. 

Jackson,

Because you believe something to be true, does not make it so.  The same applies to me.  I want to see where the weight of the evidence falls. 

 

[LifeHiscost]

I've learned one's spiritual maturity is partially revealed when basking in the Truth as they reveal it, while allowing others to express themselves freely without becoming 'unhinged' if they don't agree. It's the Holy Spirit's responsibility to convict the heart, not the decibels our voice pitch reaches.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel, read my "thought for today" post in the Church Policies section.  EGW Was not give to be used to decide doctrine, but read the quote.

 

 

 

 

[Jeannieb43]

Haven't read this thread, only the title.  But I believe we don't NEED a mediator!   Our heavenly Father God loves us just as much as Jesus does!

I think EGW's comment which is quoted in this heading came from a time in her life when she hadn't yet reached the understanding about the loving heavenly Father's tenderness toward all His created children; she felt the forensic type of doctrine, in which sinners need to have a mediator "in the court of an angry God."    That is not the case!   And EGW changed her mind on that topic, too, after her sojourn in Australia, where she wrote some of her most well-loved books, including DESIRE OF AGES.

 

Sorry I don't have the references handy.   But I know, and fully believe, that God the Father loves us just as much as Jesus does.   Jesus said He came to this earth to show us the Father.   And if we can identify with Jesus, and trust Him to love us fully, then we must also know that He came and revealed to us His heavenly Father, God the Father.

 

The idea of an angry God comes from Satan.   He is the one who developed the false doctrine of hell, with an ever-burning fire.  I do not believe in an everlasting fire, and I don't believe in an angry God.    Those are false doctrines, IMHO.   Satan is doing his best to wean us away from God's love.  I don't intend to let him take over my mind.

 

 

[BobRyan]

Haven't read this thread, only the title.  But I believe we don't NEED a mediator!  Our heavenly Father God loves us just as much as Jesus does!

 

1 Tim 2:5 "One Mediator between God and Man - the man Christ Jesus"

1 John 2:1 "We have an Advocate with the Father" - 

We have one ... because we need one.

Sorry - can't post my own words in that post without this website thinking you posted it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BobRyan]

Haven't read this thread, only the title.  But I believe we don't NEED a mediator!   Our heavenly Father God loves us just as much as Jesus does!

I think EGW's comment which is quoted in this heading came from a time in her life when she hadn't yet reached the understanding about the loving heavenly Father's tenderness toward all His created children; she felt the forensic type of doctrine, in which sinners need to have a mediator "in the court of an angry God."  

 

 

And do you also think Ellen White "is her own source of inspiration" so that when she herself improves in her thinking - then what she is told "improves"??

What Bible teaches that as the doctrine on inspiration?

 

That is not the case!   And EGW changed her mind on that topic, too, after her sojourn in Australia, where she wrote some of her most well-loved books, including DESIRE OF AGES.

 

Did she write desire of Ages intro in the form "Forget what I published earlier - I have changed my mind - here are some of my NEW and improved ideas"??

Was all of this "coming from Ellen White's mind"?? Because she is God or because she never had that connection with God in the first place so she was her own source in any case??

 

 

 

Sorry I don't have the references handy.   But I know, and fully believe, that God the Father loves us just as much as Jesus does.

 

The bible does not say "Jesus is the one mediator between God and man - because God the Father does not love us as much as Jesus does" -- we all knew that right?

 

in Christ,

 

Bob

 

 

Edited July 23, 2015 by BobRyan

[BobRyan]

That is not true Rachel. Let Mrs White clear up this misrepresentation

 I hereby testify in the fear of God that the charges of Miles Grant, of Mrs. Burdick, and others published in the Crisis are not true. The statements in reference to my course in forty-four are false.  {1SM 74.1}
     With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point.  {1SM 74.2} 

She had a vision of an open and shut door , but not that this meant probation closed for the world. Let her further explain.

 I saw that in '44 God had opened a door and no man could shut it, and shut a door and no man could open it. Those who rejected the light which was brought to the world by the message of the second angel went into darkness, and how great was that darkness.  {1SM 74.3}

     I never have stated or written that the world was doomed or damned. I never have under any circumstances used this language to any one, however sinful. I have ever had messages of reproof for those who used these harsh expressions.--Letter 2, 1874. {1SM 74.4}

Before her ministry and visions she also believed the Sabbath was Sunday,but that is no evidence that her subsequent calling  should be tainted by her earlier beliefs. Paul believed Jesus was an imposter before his minsitry was sanctioned, but I don't think anyone would hold his gospel suspect on that account.

Excellent points all.

Irrefutable my friend.

[BobRyan]

Put simply - God can be trusted - which is why His prophets can be believed - 2Tim 3:16-17 - yes "give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible" before declaring what someone may imagine the Bible says about the "Word of God" given to His prophets. -- 2Peter 1:19-21,   Mark 7:6-13.

Edited July 23, 2015 by BobRyan

[BobRyan]

I realize, looking at this again, that my comment isn't clear, when I said I don't think you have this right and you should quote something.  I was speaking in regards to what you are saying about the Millerites.

Regarding Ellen White's being a prophet, why would you choose such an esoteric subject as this to make such a decision?  I became convinced Ellen White was a prophetess by reading "The Desire of Age".  I wasn't an Adventist, and no one told me she was supposed to be a prophetess, I just read the book, and thought to myself, "This person must be a prophet". 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

The Title has to do with Christ as Mediator so we have to stick with that... and someone "else" here brought up the idea of asking for a quote from Ellen White - then switching to sort of a  "why I don't like Ellen White as a prophet because of the Millerite Matt 25 shut door topic" .

If the thread title were "evidences showing that Ellen White is a true Bible prophet" we could have a very interesting discussion along that line.

[BobRyan]

Which brings us to some actual facts on that Millerite concept of "Shut Door" - based on Matt 25.

 

 

 

The Millerite Shut door idea was based on the Millerite view of the  Matthew 25 parable of the 10 virgins.

 

From: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Appendix%20K.html

Before Ellen Harmon’s messages reached the Shut-door Millerites, two notions were inseparable: for Shut-door Millerites, the validity of the “shut door” (Matthew 25:10 or Luke 13:25), assumed and required the notion that probation had closed for the world on October 22.

After young Ellen’s visions, she retained the term “shut door” as “code words” for “validity” of the Midnight Cry, but now with an added meaning; instead of looking back only, she urged believers to look to the future for the significance of what happened in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844.

 

 

Later in 1849 early precursor Seventh-day Adventists adopted a shut-door view based on Rev 3:7,8 and the heavenly sanctuary that did not argue for all of mankind being lost except for Millerites.

 

2. . The view of “The Open and Shut Door”, on pages 42-45, was given in 1849. The application of Revelation 3:7, 8, to the heavenly sanctuary and Christ’s ministry was entirely new to me. I had never heard the idea advanced by anyone. Now as the subject of the sanctuary is being clearly understood, the application is seen in its force and beauty. {EW 86.1} </em>

 

Edited July 24, 2015 by BobRyan

[pnattmbtc]

 

Sorry - can't post my own words in that post without this website thinking you posted it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes you can.  Like this:

Bob: 1 Tim 2:5 "One Mediator between God and Man - the man Christ Jesus"

1 John 2:1 "We have an Advocate with the Father" - 

We have one ... because we need one.

You lose the timestamp, but you can post your words, and include something like "Bob" to make it clear.

Just copy/paste your words, highlight them, and use the quote thingy above to enclose them in quotes.

 

[pnattmbtc]

When dealing with mediation, there are a number of difference concepts involved.  Some of the comments on this thread are dealing with Christ as a Mediator in the terms of a go-between between us and the Father.  In John 15, Jesus makes the comment that I say I pray the Father on your behalf, for the Father Himself loves you, so I think the comments in this thread regarding the concept that we don't need Jesus as a Mediator make sense, in this context.

However, the context of the EGW comment seems to me to be a different one.  I understand her to be saying that there is a process going on in the heavenly sanctuary, and that process will continue until the close of probation, at which point that process will stop.  So when she says the 144,000 will stand before God without a mediator, I understand this to mean exactly the same thing as her saying that the 144,000 will not have the benefits of this process which has stopped.

It's not that Christ is not available to them through the Holy Spirit, but this one specific act of Christ, the work in the heavenly sanctuary, this specific process stops.

Of course, this begs the question as to what Christ is doing in the Most Holy Place, but I hope this post will help in clarifying just what it is we are talking about.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm sorry that I started a thread, referring to a statement by Ellen White.  What I WANTED was to set her aside for this thread, and just look at the role of mediator, in Scripture.  What Christ - as mediator - is doing, and has been doing every since the Pentecost which followed His death.  What He will do on the Day of Atonement.  (I believe that DAY is future - not past.)  What part of His ROLES may continue, even after the Second Coming, as the redeemed learn more, and more about the Father, and His ways. 

It just seemed to me, that if Jesus (not His Father) led the loyal angels against Satan and the angels who rebelled - BEFORE - His incarnation as a human being, that His ROLE as mediator, may have several aspects to it.  His role of "making atonement" may have several aspects to it.   

The word "atonement" means "reconciliation".  He is making reconciliation.  We are reconciled to the Father, through the Son.  WE are reconciled.  The Father is not reconciled to us.  WE are reconciled to HIM.  The angels, and other heavenly beings - ALSO - needed a reconciliation of sorts, after Satan brought questions into their minds regarding the Father's character and government. 

So - the thread turned into an argument about her "gift", and what she did (or did not) say.  I'm sorry.  I started that.  I seriously question her "gift".   Most of you believe her.  

If you have tried to discuss these topics with non-SDA folks, you realize very quickly that you cannot offer EGW quotes in support of any position.  If you use EGW quotes for your arguments, your reach will be limited to others who also believe in her.   

[Gregory Matthews]

True, Rachel:

It just seemed to me, that if Jesus (not His Father) led the loyal angels against Satan and the angels who rebelled - BEFORE - His incarnation as a human being, that His ROLE as mediator, may have several aspects to it.  His role of "making atonement" may have several aspects to it.   

 

[BobRyan]

 

Yes you can.  Like this:

So for example in this case the automatic quote-break allowing me to insert some of my text just by adding a blank line in the middle of your quote - works in this example.

 

You lose the timestamp, but you can post your words, and include something like "Bob" to make it clear.

Just copy/paste your words, highlight them, and use the quote thingy above to enclose them in quotes.

 

Ok so I can quote your post - and I can add my words below it. But if I try to take  snip of your post - quote it - add a response, quote the rest of it - add a response -- then sometimes all my responses get mangled by the web set (just doing copy past of my own words) as it wraps your quote header around my words - no matter where I copy past them.

 

The usual way i snip your quote is by simply adding lines to it - and the new web site software automatically breaks your quote allowing me to insert something as mine.