GayatfootofCross Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 After Adam ate the pomegranate ..anything is possible! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yes, Gerry, it is the same lack of faith that causes us to seek medical advice from physicians, insure our homes and automobiles, and seek the services of police. God could provide for everyone of those and more. Do you carry Smith & Wesson as insurance for your person and house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 Gerry, I do have cans a spray designed to make a bear change his mind about eating me for lunch. Frankly, a face full of such spray would likely make most humans think of leaving the area quite fast. I came to this position a few months ago when a person attempted to gain entry to my home under clearly fraudulent purposes. I consulted with law enforcement personnel whom were involved in this event and this was the advice that I was given. Frankly the 6+ ounces of spray that is in one of my containers would likely cause the person to seek for emergency clinical help and therefore come to the attention of the police. Now, you ask what about any spray drifting back on me. As I have formal military training in the use and deployment of such, I am willing to take that risk. Naomi 1 Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 Seems like a denial of the promise to wear your seat belt... Seems like a denial of the promise to not look both ways when you cross the street. Seems a denial of the promise to grant us wisdom if we fail to use the brain God gave us. Word for the day - Presumption. In other words foolish faith. All of thes silly questions remind me of the old story of the man praying for God's help and protection during the flooding of his land down by the river. When the river overflowed its banks and the water began rising toward his house he prayed to God to keep him safe from the flood waters. A neighbor came by in his 4X4 truck and offered to drive him to the shelter. The man waved him on and said God would take care of him. When the water rose up to his house and flooded his ground floor he climbed up to his second story and sat in the window waiting for God to protect him. At that point a man with a boat came by and stopped to rescue him and take him to safety. But the praying man waved him on and said God will keep me safe. When the waters kept climbing he went to his attic and cut a hole through his roof and crawled out to sit on his roof. As the water crept up the rooftop a helicopter came by and they lowered a basket for him to climb into to be taken to safety. Once again he refused, prefering to trust that God would keep him safe. In the night the flood finally washed away his house with him and he drowned. When he met his Maker he was a bit upset and asked why God had not kept his promise and kept him safe from the flood. God looked at him and said, "I did, but you refused the help I sent you 3 times." Please, indulge my silly questions, since I don't see things so clearly as you do. You're equating seat belts with armed body guards and looking sideways before crossing the street? Are you saying then that in order to have true faith, I should arm myself fully to protect myself? make my house a fortress to make sure that my faith is backed up with works if I expect not to be robbed? Don't you find it incongruent, as Pam pointed out, that the Church's stand is not to bear arms - i.e. not to take life, and then proceeds to hire armed men? If the guards are armed, it can be presumed then that if they are armed, they are therefore expected to go as far as the taking of life if necessary? Your anecdote above is interesting, but apples & oranges, imho. Your example is refusing rescue whereas the issue we're discussing is the president of a religious organization whose stand is as I discussed above actively hiring armed personnel who could take life. -And whatever happened to Jesus' counsel - if someone strikes you in the cheek, turn the other also? Sojourner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 so let me get this straight... if one of the wackos that came to San Antonio began trying to have a fist fight with Ted, he should not defend himself? What happened to - turn the other cheek also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Gerry, I do have cans a spray designed to make a bear change his mind about eating me for lunch. The National Park Rangers are advising hikers in Glacier National Park and other Rocky Mountain parks to be alert for bears and take extra precautions to avoid an encounter. They advise park visitors to wear little bells on their clothes so they make noise when hiking. The bell noise allows bears to hear them coming from a distance and not be startled by a hiker accidentally sneaking up on them. This might cause a bear to charge. Visitors should also carry a pepper spray can just in case a bear is encountered. Spraying the pepper into the air will irritate the bear's sensitive nose and it will run away. It is also a good idea to keep an eye out for fresh bear scat so you have an idea if bears are in the area. People should be able to recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear scat. Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings tend to contain small bells and smell of pepper. Sorry, couldn't resist! Uhmm, back to the thread ... JoeMo 1 Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 Gerry, you have not correctly cited the position of the SDA Church. The position that you have cited applies specifically to military service and combat in war. It does not take such a position in regard to civil law enforcement and/or personal protection in lawful civilian life. Don't you find it incongruent, as Pam pointed out, that the Church's stand is not to bear arms - i.e. not to take life, and then proceeds to hire armed men? If the guards are armed, it can be presumed then that if they are armed, they are therefore expected to go as far as the taking of life if necessary? Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 by the way, one last comment related to the attempt to get into my house: I can be commanding and authorative. Probably none of you here in this forum have ever seen me in such a mode. But, I can be. When I faced a person who was attempting entry into my home, I assumed my commanding voice and posture and he turned an fled at a rapid rate of speed, jumping into a car driven by another person which quickly left the scene. Thank you Lord for all of this. But, I decided that in preparation for the next time it might be well for me to have at hand something that would give him an experience to remember. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 As i recall, one of the disciples was carrying a sword when Jesus was taken prisoner. Probably, the disciple overreacted at that moment. However, I tend to think of "turning the cheek" to be more of a response to an insult of varying degrees and not to attempted lethal force. Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hello B/WPhotodude ..Oh to have the faith of JESUS who gave permission to finally take our Lethal Force upon Himself. Christ is sitting for His portrait in every disciple. Every one God has predestinated to be “conformed to the image of His Son.” Romans 8:29. In every one Christ’s long-suffering love, His holiness, meekness, mercy, and truth are to be manifested to the world. Desire of Ages page 827 As i recall, one of the disciples was carrying a sword when Jesus was taken prisoner. Probably, the disciple overreacted at that moment. However, I tend to think of "turning the cheek" to be more of a response to an insult of varying degrees and not to attempted lethal force. Ahh Mazing Love to finally be found in us! The Standards are High. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 What happened to - turn the other cheek also? Didn't realize you guys were against people defending themselves with guns? Gerry....BW.... Sujourner? I thought you were all in favor of concealed carry, 2nd amendment, "more guns less violence"etc. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 It's time to look outside the box. I'm up for out of the box on Revelation. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 16, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2015 Didn't realize you guys were against people defending themselves with guns? Gerry....BW.... Sujourner? I thought you were all in favor of concealed carry, 2nd amendment, "more guns less violence"etc. The Constitution guarantees the right, I don't necessarily believe in personally exercising that right. rudywoofs (Pam) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 17, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 17, 2015 I don't necessarily believe in personally exercising that right. Ok. I accept that. Just wondering why you added "necessarily". I'm curious. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Didn't realize you guys were against people defending themselves with guns? Gerry....BW.... Sujourner? I thought you were all in favor of concealed carry, 2nd amendment, "more guns less violence"etc. Since I was probably dragged into this .... I do support the second amendment and am suspicious of the current regimes attempt to outlaw guns. I even support cities where mandatory ownership of guns is the law. Some studies, except for those of the regime, will show that the most gun violence happens where guns are most controlled. This brings life to the saying, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Recently guns laws were very revised in Chicago with a subsequent large drop in the murder rate. So, while I am not a gun owner, I do feel a lot safer when there are a lot more guns out there. In fact, I even approve of open carry. As a former resident of Arizona, it was not uncommon to see citizens walking around with a gun strapped on in public. I would say the only time I ever worried about guns in AZ was one nite at the grocery story when I was behind a biker (Hell's Angel, I lived within walking distance of Sonny Barger [you will have to google him!]) with a gun in view. He was five minutes beyond the time to purchase alcohol and he wasn't going to get his beer! Word of the day: re·gime also ré·gime (rā-zhēm′, rĭ-) a. A government, especially an oppressive or undemocratic one: a fascist regime. Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Didn't realize you guys were against people defending themselves with guns? Gerry....BW.... Sujourner? I thought you were all in favor of concealed carry, 2nd amendment, "more guns less violence"etc. If I lived in the US I concede that I probably would conceal carry or at least consider it quite closely dependant on what the actual circusmstances were as opposed to what I see on the media. I don't see any difference between doing that and carrying a sword as at least one disciple did. I don't buy that the SDA were never a pacifist denomination, a statement like that I would parallel with the Jehovahs Witnesses who come to my door and when asked why their denomination incorrectly gave dates for the for the return of Christ that they respond that they never did so and that it was a case of members getting carried away with incorrect teachings, not the denomination. What I see here is what I beleve to be a theological shift within the SDA moving to a position of reccomending and endorsement of people using weapons to defend themselves if neccessary. I believe that you can still be considered to have pacifist intention in the theology of just war and making a distinction between defending your own country and not attacking another. I see recent events within the SDA as evidence that the denominations is also moving to that position. Still even his holiness the Dalai Lama feels the same way, he once said on radio in your country - "'If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 It does not suprise me that Ted Wilson would get armed Guards. He certainly has made a lot of enemies in the church. All it takes is one unbalanced person to take a gun and get close to Wilson and well headlines are full of stories of what happens next. I wonder if Wilson is weaing a bullet proof vest. Just wondering. Stan 1 Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I'm up for out of the box on Revelation. Lazarus, I hope that you are not the only one. The box is getting pretty crowded. [But some will make a bigger box.] Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Whoever decided must have concluded that angelic protection is too costly under the surveillance of varied cultures and tempers and perception of Biblical truths. Kevin H, hch and rudywoofs (Pam) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 There have been times that I protect VIP from those who felt they wanted to give them hours of unsolicited advice.. Kind of an unarmed body guard ,, Sometimes we need to protect leaders from our own people. Kevin H, hch, Johann and 2 others 5 Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 That would be like carrying a 50 cal handgun when a Glock 22 can do the job. This brings up an interesting thought. If the body guards are evangelizing the would be villains, who's protecting Ted? On the flip side: if someone is being paid to protect Ted, who's evangelizing the others? Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 23, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 23, 2015 If the body guards are evangelizing the would be villains, who's protecting Ted? On the flip side: if someone is being paid to protect Ted, who's evangelizing the others? There is a time for war and a time for peace. Naomi 1 Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 There is a time for war and a time for peace. So which war takes priority? Save the body or save the soul? Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 23, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 23, 2015 So which war takes priority? Save the body or save the soul? If you break into my house and try to kill me then war takes priority. When you are no longer a threat then it's time for evangelism. Another example, if I am out doing door to door (which I still do) and someone gets tries to attack me i defend my self then consider giving them a tract after that. This is not complex. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 If you break into my house and try to kill me then war takes priority. When you are no longer a threat then it's time for evangelism. Another example, if I am out doing door to door (which I still do) and someone gets tries to attack me i defend my self then consider giving them a tract after that. This is not complex. Not complex, but could it be a little backward? King Hezekiah showed off his stuff to the Babylonians, then his decedents had to fight them off and then evangelize them. Had Hezekiah evangelized them in the first place when they came to him seeking to know God, they might have been converted and become his allies rather than his enemies. Things could have been so different. Kevin H 1 Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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