Understanding the Gospel Through the Book of Life

[pnattmbtc]

I think overcoming evil with good entails that one has the capacity to differentiate evil from good.  If those whom I consider as having not yet reached the age of accountability can differentiate evil from good, then I have nothing against their need to overcome evil with good.

What I am somewhat puzzled with is the idea that if one will be happy in heaven then God will take him there. There are those who steal food to survive.  I think these people would be happy if given a place where food is abundant and free.  And heaven is such a place, but I guess no thief will be there.

Why would one need to be able to discern evil to be able to overcome it?  Clearly for the very young, the Holy Spirit must be involved (but, of course, the Holy Spirit must be involved for all, not just the very yound), but we have a number of accounts of the Holy Spirit working with the very young.  Were they not overcoming evil with good?

Regarding being happy in heaven, the following comes to mind:

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (The Great Controversy, p. 542-543).

I'm quoting this because it is eloquent, and expresses the thought I wish to communicate.

What is it that makes one happy or unhappy in heaven?  It is their concept of God's character, and wherther or not they have allowed God into their lives.  The theif you mentioned, assuming he hadn't responded to the Holy Spirit (like the theif on the cross did), would NOT be happy in heaven, because, in addition to food, God is in heaven, and someone who hates God and the principles of God (i.e. agape), would not be happy there.

[Samie]

Why would one need to be able to discern evil to be able to overcome it?  Clearly for the very young, the Holy Spirit must be involved (but, of course, the Holy Spirit must be involved for all, not just the very yound), but we have a number of accounts of the Holy Spirit working with the very young.  Were they not overcoming evil with good?

Overcoming necessitates a fight to be won. My brother once said no one can beat him in tennis and that he never lost a match.  And he's probably right because he does not play tennis. But neither can he win.

[Samie]

Regarding being happy in heaven, the following comes to mind:

I'm quoting this because it is eloquent, and expresses the thought I wish to communicate.

What is it that makes one happy or unhappy in heaven?  It is their concept of God's character, and wherther or not they have allowed God into their lives.  The theif you mentioned, assuming he hadn't responded to the Holy Spirit (like the theif on the cross did), would NOT be happy in heaven, because, in addition to food, God is in heaven, and someone who hates God and the principles of God (i.e. agape), would not be happy there.

I think the Bible does not explicitly say that God will take to heaven those who will be happy there but it does explicitly say that overcomers - those whose names were not blotted out from the Book of Life - will make it to heaven.  But since as you said, God will take to heaven only those who will be happy there, then overcomers will be happy in heaven.  Reading your GC quote, the need for overcoming evil with good is even more emphasized.

[pnattmbtc]

Overcoming necessitates a fight to be won. My brother once said no one can beat him in tennis and that he never lost a match.  And he's probably right because he does not play tennis. But neither can he win.

Those before the age of accountability can win tennis matches, and overcome evil with good, although they may not understand all the issues involved, either with tennis, or good and evil. 

[pnattmbtc]

 

I think the Bible does not explicitly say that God will take to heaven those who will be happy there but it does explicitly say that overcomers - those whose names were not blotted out from the Book of Life - will make it to heaven.  But since as you said, God will take to heaven only those who will be happy there, then overcomers will be happy in heaven.  Reading your GC quote, the need for overcoming evil with good is even more emphasized.

The software seems to be being a little goofy here; sorry about this.  Regarding God's taking to heaven all those who would be happy there, this just makes sense to me.  There might be some way to reason it from Scripture, I haven't really thought about it, but we can certainly infer this to be the case from knowing God's character, and such statements as "God is not willing that any should perish, but come to a knowledge of the truth."

Regarding the importance of overcoming good with evil, I agree, and think the importance of overcoming evil with good could not be overemphasized, as this is what the kingdom of God entails, as  demonstrated by Jesus Christ, but we still need to be careful not to get the cart before the horse, the horse in this case being faith, which encompasses such matters as thankfulness, gratitude and appreciation.  If we are grateful to God, we will express that gratitude.

[Samie]

Those before the age of accountability can win tennis matches, and overcome evil with good, although they may not understand all the issues involved, either with tennis, or good and evil. 

They can, I guess, by playing the game.  It would really be a sight to see infants in a tennis court playing tennis. But I doubt an infant's hands can lift a tennis racket.

Regarding the importance of overcoming good with evil, I agree, and think the importance of overcoming evil with good could not be overemphasized, as this is what the kingdom of God entails, as  demonstrated by Jesus Christ, but we still need to be careful not to get the cart before the horse, the horse in this case being faith, which encompasses such matters as thankfulness, gratitude and appreciation.  If we are grateful to God, we will express that gratitude.

Yes, faith, the faith of the Son of God.

[pnattmbtc]

They can, I guess, by playing the game.  It would really be a sight to see infants in a tennis court playing tennis. But I doubt an infant's hands can lift a tennis racket.

The age of accountability has typically been considered 13.  I bet there are tennis players that age that could beat you, even if you play well.

 Yes, faith, the faith of the Son of God.

I gave Mary Magdelene as an example, where Jesus said, "Go in peace, your faith has saved you."  She appreciated so much what Jesus had done for her that she spent a working man's yearly wages on a bottle of perfume to anoint Him.  She herself was actually grateful, so she herself did something.

When we ourselves are grateful, we ourselves actually do things as a result, which leads to our, for example, overcoming good with evil.  Now of ourselves we can do nothing, not even be grateful, but we do have a role to play, which involves our will.

I'm not sure where you're going with the "faith of the Son of God" comment, as, surely Jesus was grateful, and had faith, but how are you thinking about this in terms of our being appreciative/grateful/thankful? 

[Samie]

The age of accountability has typically been considered 13.  I bet there are tennis players that age that could beat you, even if you play well.

So those described by the Father Himself as suckling child and weaned child in the new earth are very much younger. As to these infants having overcome evil with good is the issue at hand.  I surmise only God Himself knows whether these little children have their own overcoming to do.  What I can be sure of is what Scriptures explicitly say that those whose names are in the Book of Life will be allowed entry to the new heaven and the new earth.   Since suckling and weaned children are in the new earth, therefore, their names must be in the Book of Life.

I gave Mary Magdelene as an example, where Jesus said, "Go in peace, your faith has saved you."  She appreciated so much what Jesus had done for her that she spent a working man's yearly wages on a bottle of perfume to anoint Him.  She herself was actually grateful, so she herself did something.

When we ourselves are grateful, we ourselves actually do things as a result, which leads to our, for example, overcoming good with evil.  Now of ourselves we can do nothing, not even be grateful, but we do have a role to play, which involves our will.

I'm not sure where you're going with the "faith of the Son of God" comment, as, surely Jesus was grateful, and had faith, but how are you thinking about this in terms of our being appreciative/grateful/thankful? 

I had posted that faith is needed for us to be able to overcome evil with good and please God.  So God gave a measure of faith to every man, empowering everyone to be able to overcome evil and please God. This faith given us is the faith of the Son of God.  Our being grateful is evidence that we have overcome the evil of ungratefulness by faith, the faith of the Son of God. Faith is the energy, the power. The positive use of that energy results in overcoming evil with good.

[pnattmbtc]

So those described by the Father Himself as suckling child and weaned child in the new earth are very much younger. As to these infants having overcome evil with good is the issue at hand.  I surmise only God Himself knows whether these little children have their own overcoming to do.  What I can be sure of is what Scriptures explicitly say that those whose names are in the Book of Life will be allowed entry to the new heaven and the new earth.   Since suckling and weaned children are in the new earth, therefore, their names must be in the Book of Life.

Some of their names are.  That's all you could logically conclude.  To conclude that all children's names, and presumably this would include all children before the age of accountability, would be going to far, as there is such a thing as wicked children. 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie: I had posted that faith is needed for us to be able to overcome evil with good and please God.  So God gave a measure of faith to every man, empowering everyone to be able to overcome evil and please God. This faith given us is the faith of the Son of God.  Our being grateful is evidence that we have overcome the evil of ungratefulness by faith, the faith of the Son of God. Faith is the energy, the power. The positive use of that energy results in overcoming evil with good.

I've been emphasizing the aspects of faith including appreciation, gratitude and thankfulness, the idea being that as learn what God has done for us and is doing for us, it motivates us to serve him, such as the example in Luke 7 of Mary Magdelene, where Jesus said, "Go in peace, your faith has saved you."  I'm not seeing how what you're writing here fits into this. 

[pnattmbtc]

Also something else I think isn't quite right in your description, Samie, is that you look to be describing overcoming evil with god as a requirement as opposed to a characteristic.

The requirement, if one wishes to use this word, is faith, which is that the teaching of justification by faith is all about.  For example, 

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” (Roman 4:5)

Now those who exercise faith will overcome evil with good, but that's simply a charactersitic of having faith.  Similarly, those who have faith will have their names written in the book of life, but, once again, what is driving things is not having one's name written in the book of life, nor overcoming evil with good, but having faith.  

The requirement is faith, and a reason that faith is a requirement is that God cannot be a debtor.  If we could do something of ourselves to obtain salvation, then God would be a debtor, and this cannot be.  This is Paul's argument.  Rather, salvation is by grace through faith.  Grace means it is unmerited, a free gift, given to all, and faith is the means by which we lay hold of the free gift (and faith is also given us freely).

So the emphasis should not be on either the book of life, or overcoming evil with good, but on faith.  Actually, to correct this a bit, the emphasis should be on Christ, because grace and faith is all about Christ.

[Samie]

Also something else I think isn't quite right in your description, Samie, is that you look to be describing overcoming evil with god as a requirement as opposed to a characteristic.

The requirement, if one wishes to use this word, is faith, which is that the teaching of justification by faith is all about.  For example, 

Now those who exercise faith will overcome evil with good, but that's simply a charactersitic of having faith.  Similarly, those who have faith will have their names written in the book of life, but, once again, what is driving things is not having one's name written in the book of life, nor overcoming evil with good, but having faith.  

The requirement is faith, and a reason that faith is a requirement is that God cannot be a debtor.  If we could do something of ourselves to obtain salvation, then God would be a debtor, and this cannot be.  This is Paul's argument.  Rather, salvation is by grace through faith.  Grace means it is unmerited, a free gift, given to all, and faith is the means by which we lay hold of the free gift (and faith is also given us freely).

So the emphasis should not be on either the book of life, or overcoming evil with good, but on faith.  Actually, to correct this a bit, the emphasis should be on Christ, because grace and faith is all about Christ.

Looks like you are intimidating there is a requirement to be written in the Book of Life. That, to me, is salvation by works. I think it is the other way around. Written first, before given faith. Otherwise, people are born hell-bound UNTIL given faith. People are already heaven-bound when given faith. The act of giving is only done for those who can receive. And unless written, man is spiritually dead and cannot receive any spiritual gift like faith, the faith of the Son of God.

Jesus Himself emphasized overcoming by saying that only overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. And when one's name remains in the Book of Life, he is sure of heaven.  Many who shout to the world they have faith, but refuse to overcome evil with good can be sure of being deleted.

[pnattmbtc]

Looks like you are intimidating there is a requirement to be written in the Book of Life. That, to me, is salvation by works. 

Paul argues for justification by faith, which he refers to as justification "apart from works".  Why would you think of such a "requirement" (by the way, this is your word, I prefer "characteristic"; a characteristic of those whose names are written in the book of life is that are ones who have faith in Christ)  as being "salvation by works"?  How can "apart from works" be "salvation by works"?

[pnattmbtc]

I think it is the other way around. Written first, before given faith. Otherwise, people are born hell-bound UNTIL given faith.

I don't think this follows, for several reasons.  First of all, it's assuming that the only way a person could be born heaven-bound would be to have their name written in the book of life when they are born.  Secondly, it's assuming that either a person is born hell-bound or heaven-bound.  Also, the phrase "heaven-bound" is vague.  Do you mean if they died, they would go to heaven?  Or do you mean, they are bound for heaven, unless they do something to prevent that from happening?  If the latter, then I agree, people are born heaven-bound; God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there, and God will do things to make people so that they would be happy in heaven, unless people do things to prevent God from having His way.  It is God's will to take everyone to heaven, but, unfortuntately, people do things to cause that not to happen.

People are already heaven-bound when given faith. 

Before they are given faith, they are heaven-bound, assuming heaven-bound means God will take them to heaven if not prevented from doing so.

The act of giving is only done for those who can receive. And unless written, man is spiritually dead and cannot receive any spiritual gift like faith, the faith of the Son of God.

This looks backwards.  It is receiving Christ that makes people spirutually alive.  How can one be spiritually alive without Christ?

Jesus Himself emphasized overcoming by saying that only overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. And when one's name remains in the Book of Life, he is sure of heaven.  Many who shout to the world they have faith, but refuse to overcome evil with good can be sure of being deleted.

This also looks backwards.  Certainly overcoming is important, but the way you are phrasing things can lead to a "salvation by works" idea; as if we obtain heaven by our works (e.g., overcoming evil with good).  Overcoming evil with good is a *symtom*, not a cause.  The cause is a relationship with Christ by faith.

[8thdaypriest]

"You MUST be born again." "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John Cpt 3)

It is NOT enough to be "born" physically, into this world.  "Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God".

One is "born again" from above WHEN one believes, because he has been filled with the Spirit.  He has NOT resisted the Spirit. 

WHEN one is "born again" - THAT is WHEN ones name is written into the Book of (eternal) Life. 

Before one can RESPOND to the Spirit with "belief", one must have INFORMATION - from preachers, or dreams, or angels.  God has many ways of bringing the truth to a human being. 

Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

    The promise of eternal life is given to “those who believe”.  It is not given to everyone.

    Romans 16:7  [Paul writing] “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

        Here Paul says that Andronicus and Junia were “in Christ” before he was.  Sounds like an EVENT which happens in time.          

    John 1:12  “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”

        By implication, those who do not believe in His name (or who do not yet believe) - who have not “received Him” -  are not (or not yet) children of God. 

THEY MUST HEAR - BEFORE THEY CAN BELIEVE

    Romans 10:14 “But how are they to call on One in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in One of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim Him?” (NRS)

    Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.” (NRS)

The entire question regarding the salvation of little children, ignorant pagans, and the mentally handicapped is PERFECTLY RESOLVED, by a future resurrection of these people at the 8th millennium as "the rest of the dead".  They can then HEAR the story of Christ.  They can be taught the "ways of the LORD" and then CHOOSE to accept the influence of the Spirit, or to resist it. 

Anything else is manipulation.  God will not transport a child or anyone else, into His eternal kingdom WITHOUT their informed consent.  They must be conscious and mature enough to understand, before they can CHOOSE to serve Christ. 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[Samie]

Looks like you are intimidating there is a requirement to be written in the Book of Life. That, to me, is salvation by works. I think it is the other way around. Written first, before given faith. Otherwise, people are born hell-bound UNTIL given faith. People are already heaven-bound when given faith. The act of giving is only done for those who can receive. And unless written, man is spiritually dead and cannot receive any spiritual gift like faith, the faith of the Son of God.

Jesus Himself emphasized overcoming by saying that only overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. And when one's name remains in the Book of Life, he is sure of heaven.  Many who shout to the world they have faith, but refuse to overcome evil with good can be sure of being deleted.

Paul argues for justification by faith, which he refers to as justification "apart from works".  Why would you think of such a "requirement" (by the way, this is your word, I prefer "characteristic"; a characteristic of those whose names are written in the book of life is that are ones who have faith in Christ)  as being "salvation by works"?  How can "apart from works" be "salvation by works"?

The apostle was arguing for Jesus' faith - HIS faith, not man's. It was His faith that justified us, NOT man's faith in Him that caused the justification. I understand you as saying that PRIOR to being written in the Book of Life one MUST first exercise his faith by believing in Christ. That to me is salvation by works because man's action PRECEDES his being written in the Book of Life.  On the other hand to be justified by the faith OF the Son of God is to be justified apart from works but instead by grace which God THROUGH Christ has given us before time began.  We were written first and made spiritually alive before we were given faith. Faith CANNOT be given to the spiritually dead, it cannot receive it. We can now believe because we are spiritually alive and have faith, the faith of the Son of God.

[Samie]

I think it is the other way around. Written first, before given faith. Otherwise, people are born hell-bound UNTIL given faith.

I don't think this follows, for several reasons.  First of all, it's assuming that the only way a person could be born heaven-bound would be to have their name written in the book of life when they are born.

I believe the writing of names precedes our birth because it is by grace, and that grace was given US by the Father THROUGH His Son before time began, before the foundation of the world. I think I have emphasized this in the earlier posts in this thread.  To say that people are born heaven-bound is, to me, not an assumption because God Himself said that ONLY those whose names are found written in the Book of Life can be allowed in heaven.

^NKJ Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

 Secondly, it's assuming that either a person is born hell-bound or heaven-bound. 

My position is that we all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - are born heaven-bound;  no one is born hell-bound.

[Samie]

The act of giving is only done for those who can receive. And unless written, man is spiritually dead and cannot receive any spiritual gift like faith, the faith of the Son of God.

This looks backwards.  It is receiving Christ that makes people spirutually alive.  How can one be spiritually alive without Christ?

Your last statement proves my statement.  Christ first before becoming spiritually alive.  It's not our receiving Christ that makes us spiritually alive, it is Christ Himself. Otherwise people while dead can receive. Our receiving proves our being alive. We were yet dead when the Father through His Son made us alive. After we were made alive, then we can receive Christ.

[Samie]

Jesus Himself emphasized overcoming by saying that only overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. And when one's name remains in the Book of Life, he is sure of heaven.  Many who shout to the world they have faith, but refuse to overcome evil with good can be sure of being deleted.

This also looks backwards.  Certainly overcoming is important, but the way you are phrasing things can lead to a "salvation by works" idea; as if we obtain heaven by our works (e.g., overcoming evil with good).  Overcoming evil with good is a *symtom*, not a cause.  The cause is a relationship with Christ by faith.

We don't obtain heaven by overcoming evil with good. We are already heaven-bound BEFORE we even started overcoming evil with good.  Our names are already written in the Book of Life even before we were born.  And only those whose names are in the Book of Life can be allowed entry to heaven.

^NKJ Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[8thdaypriest]

You originally asked me about cleansing from sin, to which I responded, for me it means to be forgiven.  You countered that we have to have some participation, to be physically present to be cleansed, to which I responded that our participation is in being the beneficiary of that cleansing.  You asked how can we be cleansed without existing and I replied that God cleansed us without us yet physically existing in the same way He chose us before we even existed - before the foundation of the world. You countered with Rev 7:14, and I responded with Paul's statement that he was crucified with Christ even if he was not there physically present.

Now you tell me I am not reading what you are writing.  I take this to mean that for you a person cannot be forgiven UNLESS he is physically alive. I respect your position. But for me, when the Bible says that all sins were forgiven on the cross, I believe this includes all sins - past, present, future. Because if I were to take your position of being physically alive to be forgiven, then people who lived and died BEFORE the cross were not beneficiaries of Calvary's cross.

You say, "all sins were forgiven on the cross".  THAT would mean every human being will be "saved" for the Kingdom, and will be given eternal life.   That's UNIVERSALISM.

Then you say that one if one "fails to overcome evil with good", then his name will be "blotted out" of the Book of Life.  THAT puts a CONDITION on some, but not on others (those too young, or ignorant of what good/evil are in the eyes of God).  But - if "all sins were forgiven" - then is not the failure to overcome evil with good - also forgiven?  Is not this failure a "sin" ? 

Your argument doesn't make sense.  ALL sins were (past tense) forgiven - but you can "sin" (fail to overcome) and have your name "blotted out". 

Or - are you saying that "failure to overcome evil with good" is NOT sin? 

[8thdaypriest]

Yes, our existence is in the Body of Christ to which we were attached on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19). You and I were not yet born then, but we were there (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). The apostle Paul was not yet converted then but he was there; in fact he said, "I have been crucified with Christ" (Gal 2:20).

Paul also said, "I die daily" (I Cor 15:31).  Daily - Paul CHOSE to "die" to any life (focus or goal) outside of "Christ and Him crucified".  That doesn't say Paul was literally "in" Christ's body on the cross.  It says that Paul CHOSE to "crucify" the flesh, when He believed, and each day from that day on. 

Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die [eternally]; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." 

Sounds conditional to me.  By the Spirit - you CHOOSE to do good, or from your own flesh - you CHOOSE to continue in sin.  (This must be "failure to overcome".) 

But you said that "all sin, past, present, and future" was carried to the cross and into the grave by Christ, and is therefore forgiven. 

So which is it?  All sin forgiven?  OR  Some sin not forgiven? 

[Samie]

You say, "all sins were forgiven on the cross".

I simply based my statement from what I understand from Scriptures:

^NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were ^adead ¹in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He ^bmade you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, ¹⁴ having canceled out ^athe certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and ^bHe has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

THAT would mean every human being will be "saved" for the Kingdom, and will be given eternal life.   That's UNIVERSALISM.

You very well know what I teach is very DIFFERENT from UNIVERSALISM.

Then you say that one if one "fails to overcome evil with good", then his name will be "blotted out" of the Book of Life.

Again, that's how I understand the Bible.  I believe that's the converse of what Jesus said that overcomers will not be blotted out (Rev 3:5).  But judgment to blot or not occurs only after a person dies, not while alive (Heb 9:27).

THAT puts a CONDITION on some, but not on others (those too young, or ignorant of what good/evil are in the eyes of God).

It's a condition for all. But others did not have the opportunity.

But - if "all sins were forgiven" - then is not the failure to overcome evil with good - also forgiven?

Yes, forgiven.

Is not this failure a "sin" ? 

It is.

Your argument doesn't make sense.

Because you don't yet understand.

Or - are you saying that "failure to overcome evil with good" is NOT sin? 

I already said, it is sin. 

Jesus Himself EXPLICITLY said that overcomers will not be blotted out, ergo, non-overcomers will be blotted out.  All sins WERE forgiven, including the sin of non-overcoming, but the sin of non-overcoming is the only reason our Lord Himself provided why a name will be blotted out.

[Samie]

Paul also said, "I die daily" (I Cor 15:31).  Daily - Paul CHOSE to "die" to any life (focus or goal) outside of "Christ and Him crucified".  That doesn't say Paul was literally "in" Christ's body on the cross.  It says that Paul CHOSE to "crucify" the flesh, when He believed, and each day from that day on. 

To crucify the flesh is a spiritual act and doable only by the spiritually alive. If before he believed Paul was spiritually dead, how can he crucify the flesh?

Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die [eternally]; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." 

Sounds conditional to me.  By the Spirit - you CHOOSE to do good, or from your own flesh - you CHOOSE to continue in sin.  (This must be "failure to overcome".)

Yes, it is.

But

you said

that "

all sin

, past, present, and future" was carried to the cross and into the grave by Christ, and

is therefore forgiven

. 

So which is it?  All sin forgiven?  OR  Some sin not forgiven? 

All sin forgiven, as the Bible says:

^NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were ^adead ¹in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He ^bmade you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, ¹⁴ having canceled out ^athe certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and ^bHe has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[pnattmbtc]

The apostle was arguing for Jesus' faith - HIS faith, not man's. It was His faith that justified us, NOT man's faith in Him that caused the justification. I understand you as saying that PRIOR to being written in the Book of Life one MUST first exercise his faith by believing in Christ. That to me is salvation by works because man's action PRECEDES his being written in the Book of Life.  On the other hand to be justified by the faith OF the Son of God is to be justified apart from works but instead by grace which God THROUGH Christ has given us before time began.  We were written first and made spiritually alive before we were given faith. Faith CANNOT be given to the spiritually dead, it cannot receive it. We can now believe because we are spiritually alive and have faith, the faith of the Son of God.

Earlier you stated that the book of life records reality, it doesn't produce it.  What does having one's name written in the book of life mean?  I'll assume it means that if one were to die, one would be a part of the resurrection of the righteous.  Synonmyns for this would be having eternal life, being justified by faith, or being born again.

If your understanding of having your name written in the book of life is different, then you'll have to let me know.

Paul's argument in Romans 4 is that justification is not of works but of faith, and he is talking about our faith.  For example:

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Here Abraham's faith is given as a example of the faith involved when one is justified by faith.

The order of things is:

1.One is convicted of one's need for Christ.
2.One repents and believes in Christ.

Synonyms for step 2 are being justified by faith, or being born again.  Paul also refers to this as justification "without the works of the law", so, again, it is really difficult to see how this could be construed as salvation by works.  The context of Paul's  comment is David's prayer of repentance, after Nathan the prophet saw him.  This is dealing with David's prayer of repentance and forgiveness.

Forgiveness has both a corporate and individual aspect to it.  The context tells us which it is.  It is not the case that every reference in Scripture talking about forgiveness is dealing with the corporate aspect.

[8thdaypriest]

 

To crucify the flesh is a spiritual act and doable only by the spiritually alive. If before he believed Paul was spiritually dead, how can he crucify the flesh?

Yes, it is.

 

All sin forgiven, as the Bible says:

^NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were ^adead ¹in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He ^bmade you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, ¹⁴ having canceled out ^athe certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and ^bHe has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Once again - out of context.  Paul is writing TO "the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse".  He is NOT writing to "all mankind". 

Every one of the personal pronouns are references to "saints and faithful brethren in Christ", not to every human that has ever lived.   

The believers WERE (past tense) DEAD.  But NOW they have been "made alive".  They have been "made alive" in two ways.  1. by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God - which gives life and 2. they have NOW been declared righteous (rather than "cursed" and condemned to death).  When did that happen???? 

When was their condition CHANGED from "dead" to "alive" ?  WHEN? 

If there WAS a TIME when these people "were dead" - WHEN was that time????? 

You Samie, say that everyone was "forgiven" and "washed" before time even began - from eternity, before the creation of anything. 

So THERE WAS NO TIME when these people were ever "dead".