Not Under Law – Under Grace

[Robert]

Read!

[archierieus]

Okay, I read it, Robert. Jack Sequeira. I noted with interest his statement in the article:

" in the Old Covenant man was to fulfill that law in order to be saved. In the New Covenant, God fulfills the law to save us.

[archierieus]

Hey, how did that happen? I wasn't finished with my post, but it got posted! Oh well. Anyway, back to Sequeira's statement. I don't believe that God would be a party to a covenant which said that man had to fulfill the law in order to be saved. That is not my understanding of the Old Covenant, found in Ex. 19:1 - 8. Nor does Mr. Sequeira's characterization of the New Covenant seem complete. The New Covenant is recorded in Heb. 10:15 - 17, I think.

Regards, Dave

[Clio]

Until the Western Mind understands the Blood Covenant, it will never understand what is being taught in the Old Testament.

What Sequira is proposing in not truth. It is lacking the understanding of the Blood Covenant.

The entire old testament has little to do with the law. Instead it is there to be the frame and background for the true message, the Blood Covenant of faith through proxy lamb's blood, pointing forward to the Blood Covenant sealed with True Jesus blood. And all the rights and privileges and responsibilities that come with it.

For in depth study on this get H. Clay Trumball's book Blood Covenant. Don't take my word for it, do the homework yourself.

Clio

[Robert]

Quote:

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Clio said:

What Sequeira is proposing in not truth. It is lacking the understanding of the Blood Covenant.

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Here's "the blood covenant" in a nutshell:

Heb 9:22 "...the law [i.e., the 1st 5 books of the OT] requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these[see Heb 10.1,2]

24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

Of course you know that the OT sacrifices pointed to Christ's work. Hence those sacrifices from the blood of bulls and goats were symbols of Christ the reality!

Heb 10:5 Sacrifice and offering Thou [God] hast not desired,

Please note that these OT sacrifices God did not desire....It was used as a show and tell....It pointed to Christ's future work.

But a body Thou hast prepared for Me

That's the gospel! A body was prepared for the self-existing Christ. That body was our fallen humanity under the curse of the law taken from Mary's womb. So when you hear the law demands our blood, it means that it requires our life!

Did our old life die in the humanity of Christ? Paul says yes [read Rom 6:6/Rom 7:4] Anything outside of this truth is a perverted gospel. So Sequeira is right on the money!

[Dr. Shane]

Man has never been saved by fulfilling the law.

[:"red"] Old Testament: means of salvation - FAITH [/]

"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Hab. 2:4

[:"red"] New Testament: means of salvation - FAITH [/]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Eph. 2:8

[WayneV]

Quote:

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Shane said:

Man has never been saved by fulfilling the law.

[:"red"]

Old Testament: means of salvation - FAITH

[/]

"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Hab. 2:4

[:"red"]

New Testament: means of salvation - FAITH

[/]"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Eph. 2:8

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Shane, try [:"red"] God's means of salvation - GRACE [/]

For by grace you have been saved through faith... Ephesians 2:8

I'm sorry, but I believe that it is important that we distinguish between grace and faith; Because if our salvation is by faith, then it depends on us, but if it is by grace, then it depends on God. I hope you see where I am coming from.

By the way, I'm thinking of changing my signature to the following,

DISCLAIMER: No harm was intended to any person in any way by this poster. Poster apologizes in advance if any harm was perceived and/or actually done (in other words - "Get over it!").

What do ya think?

[Robert]

Yes...good point! Faith is not the Savior....In God's eyes we are already saved by grace. Faith is the tool by which we receive what has already been accomplished in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Shane]

Galations 2:16 clarifies the issue. We are saved by faith today, just as man has always been saved. Faith itself is a gift from God. When Peter called Jesus the Son of God, he was told that was revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. Faith does not come from within us as some kind of good work which we can boast. Faith itself is given to us by grace. It is a gift which we have done nothing to deserve.

Noah was saved by grace through faith - not by works. Moses was saved by grace through faith - not by works. Samson was saved by grace through faith - not by works. Samuel was saved by grace through faith - not by works. David was saved by grace through faith - not by works. Daniel was saved by grace through faith - not by works.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Shane,

When Christ our Lord and Savior died on the cross for the sins of the world, we had nothing to do with that act or it's results. We could say that our sins put Him there, but He actually chose to suffer for our sins. Having reconciled us all to God by His death, life and ministry, our faith is the means by which we receive what Christ has done for us. Our faith does not cause our salvation to happen, Christ has done that. As it is written, we are saved by grace (God's doing) through faith (our acceptance of the gift.)

Even the faith that truly born again Christians have is not our own, but it is given to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation :in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," This same Spirit brings the fruit of the Spirit, one of them being faith. This is the faith of Jesus whereby we call out, Abba, Father. These indearing names indicate that we love and trust our Father as Jesus does, by the Holy Spirit. (In other words, [because we love Him] what God says we will do, being empowered by the indwelling Spirit.) The faith that we walk in is a product of that love. But the intial faith or trust that we exercise in believing the gospel of our salvation and the faith we walk in can never be a redeemer.

The righteous who have been declared so by God will live by faith or, the just (justified by faith, not works) shall live by faith (a fruit of the Spirit and relationship with God)

You probably already know this but it doesn't hurt to here it again.

Norman

[jasd]

>>Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation :<< [ed. underlined:mine]

…was wondering when that would be brought up, as I’m beginning to detect a resonance of Calvinism with a faint secondary value (or tertiary? depending) of Universalism in these and similar posts that posit a “Faith, and only Faith teaching”? I mean, what of

Joe Schlub or other -- who lives in frozen tundra; sweltering equatorial; Metropolis, USofA; or elsewhere? where nar’ an evangelist had ever been (satellite coverage, notwithstanding…);

after all, there are only so many evangelists in the field, if you will.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How then, has Joe Schlub, not having heard the “word of God”, come by his faith unto salvation? Yet,

there is…

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Might not the implication be that there is something other than ‘Faith alone’ that ‘worketh unto salvation’?

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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WayneV said:

Shane, try [:"red"]

God's means of salvation - GRACE

[/]

For by

grace

you have been saved

through

faith

... Ephesians 2:8

I'm sorry, but I believe that it is important that we distinguish between grace and faith; Because if our salvation is by faith, then it depends on us, but if it is by grace, then it depends on God.

---

I think that's probably what Shane may have had in mind, but yes, Wayne, it is a VERY important distinction!!!

Quote:

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By the way, I'm thinking of changing my signature to the following,

DISCLAIMER:

No harm was intended to any person in any way by this poster. Poster apologizes in advance if any harm was perceived and/or actually done (in other words - "Get over it!").

What do ya think?

---

I think you've been hanging around A certain other forum way too long. (Don't know whether to put or following that statement!) For the record I don't recall ever seeing you post anything that was personally offensive. (And obviously if I did or ever complained as much, I've forgotten by now!)

[Nicodema]

Interesting parallel passages here:

"By grace are ye saved, through faith ..."

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

So apparently, the word leads to faith which is the means by which we take hold of grace. It's interesting also that the first verse I quoted continues, "and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." So then faith itself is a GIFT from God, and this gift comes by hearing THE WORD, and this leads to receiving the GRACE which SAVES us.

That's how I see those verses fitting together anyway. Any thoughts?

[Gerr]

What is it that I'm supposed to read?

Gerry

[Nicodema]

Gerry click the word "Read" - it's an essay on Romans 16 by Jack Sequiera.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

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Because if our salvation is by faith, then it depends on us

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This is where I take some exception. Yes, we do need faith and part of that does depend on us. Our part is the belief. This is why Christ said, "whosoever believeth..." However it is the Holy Spirit that causes us desire Christ. Without that desire we would never believe, we would never accept the gift. The desire itself is a gift of grace. The desire for Christ does not come from within us but comes from without - the Holy Spirit.

However those that lived before Christ were saved by grace just as we are today.

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord". Gen. 6:8

"And Moses said unto the Lord... Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight." Ex. 33:12

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi jasd,

In my reply to Shane I was dealing with the issue of Grace and Faith and how we are saved. Faith is not our savior, was my main point, we are saved by grace through faith. Christ is our savior. I don't believe that the act of human faith or belief saves us. It takes faith in Christ and the faith of Christ. One is the means of receiving the gift and the other is the means of revealing that we have received it. Commandment keeping follows and shows that we know and love God and our fellow man. "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

So what about Mr. jungle of no where land? Does he have to have faith to be saved? Well if faith is not the savior of us who hear the Gospel, it would not be his either. He would still be saved by grace through faith however. (by the faith of Jesus; which would come to him by trusting the Spirit's voice in him) God is looking for those who respond to Him and God speaks to us by the Bible, Nature, useful work and life's experiences via the Holy Spirit. He may not have the Bible, but the last 3 would teach him enough about God to receive the faith of Jesus, as he loved God.

He would reveal his love and relationship with God by commandment keeping. Rom 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)"

I haven't studied this out but what I have written makes sense to me. Let me know waht you think?

Norman

[archierieus]

Quote:

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jasd said:

I’m beginning to detect a resonance of Calvinism with a faint secondary value (or tertiary? depending) of Universalism in these and similar posts that posit a “Faith, and only Faith teaching”?

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That is EXACTLY what my impression has been. Calvinist in the sense that what the 'elect' do is immaterial to their salvation. God has chosen them, and they WILL be saved, regardless of what they do or don't do. Unitarian Universalist, as well, in some respects. The bottom line is that the 'works' of the elect, or lack of works, have no bearing on salvation. The question remains, under this system of belief, how does one become one of the elect?

Regards, Dave

[Clio]

It boils down to this...

By faith, one accepts the Blood Covenant union with Abba offered through His Grace, and sealed with Jesus' blood.

Through love, gratefulness, and thanksgiving for the magnificent love, honor, glory, redemption, adoption and salvation inherent in a sealed real blood covenant with Abba, we do as He asks and commands because we love Him and He loves us. Because of the solemnity, sacredness, and intense honor inherent in a blood covenant, we can be CERTAIN (yes, Bevin, CERTAIN) of His unfailing goodness and care us-wards thus making even the most goofy-seeming commands (from a human perspective)something easy and light.

By gracious gift, through faith, by grace comes salvation, and through the change that brings comes obedience and the fruit of the Spirit. And the obedience and stronghold destruction comes at the pace and in the order that the Spirit and Abba and Jesus deem to be "right and true" for each human soul.

Clio

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

I read Jack's exposition, and there are two points that I would comment on in the short time I have. He does not believe in dispensationalism [salvation by works of law before the Cross, and salvation by grace through faith after], and yet stated that the Old Covenant was salvation by works.

Someone has already pointed out that this cannot be. That God does not have one way to salvation at one period and another for another time. It is not a just God who gives an impossible task to some people and an easier one to others.

The OC was just as much a covenant of Grace when it was given as the NC was. Perfect righteousness was demanded by the NC just as much as the OC. The difference was in the HOW to meet the terms of the covenant. The Israelites in general attempted to establish this righteousness on their own, Rom 10:4, while others met the same terms in the OT by faith. Heb 11 bears this out with a long list of all the heroes of faith in the OT. The NT of course makes it a lot clearer that the NC with its demand for righteousness no less rigorous than the OC, is to be met through faith.

The second point is where Jack puts forward the notion that one can commit a deliberately sinful act and still remain under the umbrella of justification. If this were so, Adam & Eve would/could not have suffered the death sentence. Ananias & Saphira would/could not have cost their lives for one deliberate sin. King Saul, who came under the influence of the Holy Spirit about whom the question came, "Is Saul also among the prophets?", would/could not have lost his salvation after three strikes.

While Jack claims that one can commit a deliberately sinful act and yet remain justified, he also acknowledges that one could lose one's salvation by "deliberately" & "persistently" sinning. That is a foggy sort of thinking, IMHO. What constitutes "persistent" sinning? 3X? 10X? More than 70x7? And my question about the people I mentioned in the above paragraph applies.

I'll bring up other issues later.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Thanks Nico. The first time I clicked on "Read", nothing happened, hence the question.

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gerry,

Quote:

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He does not believe in dispensationalism [salvation by works of law before the Cross, and salvation by grace through faith after], and yet stated that the Old Covenant was salvation by works.

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I picked that up too. I have to tell you, that the first time I heard and read about Jack, I was totally against what he preached. I still listened and studied and came to the conclusion that he was right. But there were certain things I didn't agree with. The verses that he was using to come to his conclusions seemed to be taken out of context. Then when you, Rob and I were having and still having our discussion on R7, I was thinking that "if that is what Jack preaches, I do not agree with him."

But, I have Jack's latest book or reprint on Romans and I haven't gone through it all yet, but what I have read is good. Part of my last post in our R7 discussion is taken from Jack's latest book and seems to go along with what we have been saying. Rob has not commented on it yet.

Norman

[WayneV]

Quote:

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Nicodema said:

It's interesting also that the first verse I quoted continues, "and that

not of yourselves;

it is the

gift

of God,

not

of

works

, lest any man should boast." So then faith itself is a GIFT from God, and this gift comes by hearing THE WORD, and this leads to receiving the GRACE which SAVES us.

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Nico,

I've often wondered if, in that verse, it is speaking of faith as being the gift, or is it the grace which is the gift. Do you mind if I ask how you came to the conclusion that the verse is speaking of faith as being the gift? Personally, I believe that both are gifts, but i'm speaking to the application of this particular verse.

Thanks!

Agape`

[archierieus]

Quote:

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Clio said:

Through love, gratefulness, and thanksgiving for the magnificent love, honor, glory, redemption, adoption and salvation inherent in a sealed real blood covenant with Abba, we do as He asks and commands because we love Him and He loves us.

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Clio, my reflection on what seem like Calvinist aspects of the position taken by Robert and Jack, is a result of a certain amount of exposure to the '1888 study committee' publications, which I used to receive in the mail, and some discussions with one of the founders of the neo-1888 movement--a co-author of a book, as well as some of his followers.

I perceive a couple of extremes which may be taken: one, that of salvation by works and, second, that of salvation REGARDLESS of works. I do not believe that either position is in harmony with Scripture. I believe that the position taken by Jack Sequeira (whom I also have heard in person) and by the current 1888 movement, remonstrances notwithstanding, for practical purposes fall within the latter extreme.

Now, as to your post, which I have excerpted above--without a doubt, you are correct, and that is a wonderful picture of what can and should happen. However, the grim face of reality interjects itself. At least as often as not, we simply do not do what we ideally should do. Does that affect our salvation? Is our standing with God in jeapordy? One thing we can say for sure. "The goodness of God calls us to repentance." (Rom. 2) We cannot continue in sin, and we cannot persist in sin, and expect to be saved in God's kingdom. While works will not save us, we cannot be saved without works.

One serious error of the Calvinist belief, as well as the 'once-saved-always-saved' doctrine, is the idea that God will override our wills in order to save us, either by virtue of His arbitrary election of us as His people (Calvinist position) or because we have once-for-all responded to His calling (once-saved-always-saved position).

Either school of thought minimizes our accountability and the importance of our ongoing freedom of choice in determining our eternal destiny. Both schools of thought constitute deadly error, as I understand the Bible. Both schools of thought are merely variations of the serpent's original lie to Eve, that even though she sinned, she would not surely die.

The reality: Jesus died on the cross to free us from both the penalty and the power of sin. Jesus rose from the grave to empower us with His resurrection power, to live a new life. Jesus promises to empower our wills "to will and to do His good pleasure." But, the ongoing, daily choice is ours. And there is simply no shortcut around that.

Regards, Dave

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Dave,

you said,

Quote:

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The reality: Jesus died on the cross to free us from both the penalty and the power of sin. Jesus rose from the grave to empower us with His resurrection power, to live a new life. Jesus promises to empower our wills "to will and to do His good pleasure." But, the ongoing, daily choice is ours. And there is simply no shortcut around that.

---

Amen to that only I would change one thing,

Quote:

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Jesus promises to

empower our wills

"to will and to do His good pleasure

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Our will must not be modified, it is sinful and basically follows the deceitfully wicked heart, but we must surrender completely in order to have His will in us. You have quoted it, Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure ." It is God willing in us, it is no longer our wills. We must get to the point where we will trust Him fully and surrender completely and let Him guide us. We have the choice to say yes Lord I love you so much take me and use me as you please or keep willing and failing and wondering why we're not overcoming.

I encourage you and everyone to study this and see what you come up with. We must truly be dead to self and God will work through us by the Holy Spirit. We will so love Him that we will not want to do anything but say yes to His will as the Spirit moves us. This is how Jesus lives and this is how we must live in order to be victorious. We must will to let Him will in us.

Norman