Moderators lazarus Posted January 4, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2006 I'm preaching in a couple of weeks a sermon called "Inside out". Its basically looking at the story of Samuel's anointing David...God says, "man looks on the outward appearance" God looks on the heart, hence the title. I had an idea....I preach the first five mins of the sermon as I normally do in a shirt and tie etc...my wife will come and sing a song after the ten mins so I can change in casual clothes (jeans etc). I will come back onto the platform dessed casually and seek to illustrate the point about outward appearance being less important to God. Of course this will be controversial, especially in my church. What do you think. I don't think I'm really gonna get fired but I getting "cold feet" now. Any advice or comments, rebukes, suggestions would be appreciated. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted January 4, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2006 This seems an excellent idea and one that should drive your points home. Of course I do not know how conservative your congregation is - but if you can get your message across maybe it would make those who are initially shocked reevaluate the things of real importance. Should you have your wife sing another song towards the end of your sermon so you can change back into your 'proper' clothing to greet the members as they leave the church <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceth Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Some of most basic lessons are the hardest to accept. If dress is that much of an issue in the eyes of your congregation, then they need to hear this message, along with whatever visual aids are necessary to get the point across clearly. It sounds to me like you've been *led* to this idea, and it is appropriate to the need... Quote What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on? J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 - 1973), The Hobbit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted January 4, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2006 Lazarus, I've often thought I'd like to attend your church someday. You have a unique approach which your members certainly must appreciate. But what I came here to say, is that we had a minister about 20 years ago who used to tell the children's story [which, incidentally, always had the same basic "moral" as the adult sermon which followed it] using very creative props. And sometimes he would even change his own clothes. However, whenever he would put on hiking gear, or an army camouflage jacket, or different types of hats, etc., he would do so right during the story. He never changed his trousers, but the "taking off" and the "putting on" processes were all very intriguing to the children [and their parents too]. He was telling the story while doing so, and he captivated everyone in the congregation that way. One day he even talked about hiking, about following the guideposts, etc., which had been set up for us by those who've gone before--and he went through the sanctuary, with the children following in single file, setting up cairns. Then he told some more of the story from the front, followed by another "hike" through the sanctuary again, picking up those cairns [rocks of varying size stacked upon each other], talking all the while about following the path laid out by the leaders, in order not to become lost. I'll never forget some of those illustrations. P.S. On second thought, I believe sometimes he did actually put on other types of trousers, but they'd always be of a larger size, overall-type, which went on right over his own suit trousers. So he never had to leave the platform to change. Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Personally I dont think or care what a person wears to church, as long as they don't come naked. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 If you really want to stir the pot you need to wear some clip-on earings, a necklace with a big gold madellion and baggy pants that hang down to your knees. I like to wear my bow-tie when I preach and have found that people actually listen to me more because of a silly bow-tie. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 4, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2006 I think it could be a great idea, but I would suggest that you have the congregation sing a couple of songs at the end of the service so that you have time to go back and get dressed in your suit again before returning to the platform. I really doubt you would get fired. You might explain (defend?) your actions in the context of the parables in the Bible, such as the weird teaching-actions of the prophet Ezekiel. How about connecting it with James 2:2-4? Perhaps you could even change clothes twice, once into the poor man's street clothes and then into clothes as worn by someone wealthy and extravagant. If done right, no one will misunderstand. I hope you let us know what you said and how the congregation responded. Sometimes congregations need a little shock in order to drive the point home. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Pastor Lazarus, There is a T-shirt my daughter wears from time to time. On the back it reads, "I WAS FIRED!" The front shows a small symbol representing the Faith on Fire Camporee. Why on Earth would you be fired for being creatively demonstrative in your sermons? With so much emphasis on Garner's learning styles, it should be obvious that you are attempting to reach the "visual" people in your congregation. Some people here have suggested that you change back into your normal church attire. I ask, why? To me, it would serve a greater purpose to keep the more casual clothing on while greeting the congregants as they leave. The message would be sent home with them as they approach the "mission field" and not kept in a neat little room in the back of the church. Yes, indeed, you won't get fired, but you might get your congregation "fired" (up for Jesus!). QB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: once into the poor man's street clothes and then into clothes as worn by someone wealthy and extravagant. The top hat would really put it over the "top" (pun intended) Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I like your idea, but to my mind, it is a bit tame... I had something abit different im mind for one of my former churches....I would first need to loose a lot of weight though.... I had in mind for this conservative church, of dressing up in old smelly clothes, and apply some facial hair and get a good beard on. I would attempt to get some buck teeth as well with some cheek padding to make the cheeks on my face a bit fatter. I would come in with worn tennis shooes, and dirty army fatigues, the ones with lots of pockets. "Church Service" would begin at Sabbath SChool, where I would particpate in the most noisey and obnoxious mannor, being loud in my answers in the SS, pulling out potato chips to munch on, and probably be single minded with one thought being expressed in several different ways, that is, that Jesus died for our sins. I wonder how many churches would allow this noisy, loud mouth badly dressed homeless person in thier church? At least, by the end of SS, I figure that this person would be ignored at the very least. If I was 'escorted' out, I would be back in at the Church service and give the Sermon in the homeless clothes. If I made it without being escorted out, [and here is where someone , ie church elder, would have to be in on this], after the special music was done, the elder would have to say that the special speaker did not come. Is there anyone who has a message for the congregation? And lo and behold, this homeless guy stands up and starts to preach. And explains that some of the looks from the church members were enough to scare him, all the while pulling out the buck teeth and cheek pades..."Don't recognise me?", as he pulls off his beard..."I recognise you!" as he pulls the pillow for the stomach out from underneath the army jacket. "You guys have to admit, that you were as scared of me, as I was of you!" as he takes off his outer garments to reveal nice clean comfortable clothes. Once you put on your church shoes, you can pray..."Lord, while we look on the outside of man, give us the strength to see the inside. Heelp us to not see the stranger, but a friend." Or something to that effect...... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockey Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Why would you get fired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAN Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 If you want to make sure you will not be fired -- why not call your conference president BEFORE you do it so he will be informed and educated. If he hears about it after the fact from some well intentioned "brother" you may have a harder time expalining what you meant versus what the viewpoint your "brother" perceived and sold to the conference president. We lost a pastor in our church about 3 years ago because other brethern got the ear of the conference president before he did. :2cents: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAN Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 If you want to make sure you will not be fired -- why not call your conference president BEFORE you do it so he will be informed and educated. If he hears about it after the fact from some well intentioned "brother" you may have a harder time expalining what you meant versus what the viewpoint your "brother" perceived and sold to the conference president. We lost a pastor in our church about 3 years ago because other brethern got the ear of the conference president before he did. :2cents: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 8, 2006 Author Moderators Share Posted January 8, 2006 Quote: Nan said: Should you have your wife sing another song towards the end of your sermon so you can change back into your 'proper' clothing to greet the members as they leave the church I think I'll do that....its might signal to them that I haven't gone crazy after all! Quote: You have a unique approach which your members certainly must appreciate. Some of the more conservative ones appreciate it so much that they wanted to have me moved! Despite the grin....I'm serious. Quote: If you really want to stir the pot you need to wear some clip-on earings, a necklace with a big gold madellion and baggy pants that hang down to your knees. shane I'll do it if you promise to get me a job working on one of your projects. I have a degree in Architecture! Neil said, Quote: I like your idea, but to my mind, it is a bit tame... ...but i really don't care what u say because u are a crazy, liberal, ACLU supporting, hardleft, anti-americanish, long haired (metaphorically speaking) ........person. OK, I know its lame...but I have a morgage! Sid said, Quote: Why would you get fired? I see you live in California...........hence your question. Sman Said: Quote: why not call your conference president BEFORE you do it so he will be informed and educated. I can see the conversation now.... Me:Hi can I speak to the President please. This is Ps (tryin not to get fired) Lazarus. Secretary: Can you hold the line! (The new Heritage CD is being played while I wait) President: Hey, how are you Me: doin ok., How are you? Er....I just called to let you know that I will be wearing Jeans for part of my sermon this week......er....I'll be wearing a suit at the beginning and then... President: You'll be wearing Jeans....hmmm....ok... so how long have you been where you are, 4 years? Me: yeh, about that...and then... President: So hows your wife....and the children. i heard that your son just got out of jail.... Me: Jail....no its was kindergarten....he's only 6....anyway President: Ps Lazarus, we need to have a talk...how about tomorrow morning in the office. 8:30am. I'll see you there. Me: But Mr President, Sir.... President: "Click" The only problem I forsee is that the "hard right" in my church may say that youth might start seeing it as a green light to start wearing jeans to church! BTW I serve in a multi-pastor church, I'm not the lead pastor! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Quote: Neil said, Quote: I like your idea, but to my mind, it is a bit tame... ...but i really don't care what u say because u are a crazy, liberal, ACLU supporting, hardleft, anti-americanish, long haired (metaphorically speaking) ........person. OK, I know its lame...but I have a morgage! And your point is.......?????? As EGW used to lament, " Oh for men to do the right things, though the heavens fall..." .....or something to that effect! Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I think you should start the sermon in your jeans--why change after you've made the point? I have a friend who was a hippie. When I knew him, he was a teacher, and still wore his hair long in a ponytail, "hulk hogan" mustache--really great. When he was asked to guest preach, he'd come in totally in hippie regalia, "dude-ing" everyone, giving the peace sign, old army coat--then he'd meander up to the platform and start talking about acceptance. Quite effective. I saw him give the sermon once in one of the most conservative churches in our (admitedly very liberal) conference. Once people got over the shock, they really appreciated the sermon. However, if you've been there 4 years and are truly worried, then do it the first way. But don't change back--let them shake your hand (or wag their fingers at you?) while you're wearing jeans--after all, you're the same person, aren't you? (how conservative is your church, anyway--are you in Michigan? That's my benchmark for conservative--there are probably more conservative conferences somewhere, but I have never been in one!) M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Hi Lazarus, if you haven't done it this past Sabbath then here's aomething else that you can do that will have a profound effect and reveal the prejudice (not racial) of those who are harboring such a feeling. Go to a store that sells Roman Catholic priest's clothes. Buy the collar and gray shirt and then take off your shirt and have a RC gray shirt with the collar on underneath. If you think having jeans on and a T shirt will get a response wait till you try that. Then at the end make a disclaimer stating that you are not an under cover jesuit Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Ahem...what's wrong with the youth (or anyone) wearing jeans to church? As far as I can remember, Jesus didn't have a suit, or tie. He didn't wear wing tips, he didn't shave. He didn't even wear pants! Pastor Lazarus, if you wish to make a change in people's hearts, first there must be a change in your's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted January 9, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Michelle said: (how conservative is your church, anyway--are you in Michigan? That's my benchmark for conservative--there are probably more conservative conferences somewhere, but I have never been in one!) M <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Michelle, have you ever lived in the South? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: what's wrong with the youth (or anyone) wearing jeans to church? It is not about obeying a list of rules of do this and not that. It is about respect and our relationship with God. If a Bush-hater was invited to the White House, he or she would probally dress much different than a Bush supporter. Why? Becuase one respects the President more than the other. As one grows in Christ, he or she tends to show more respect in the sanctuary and part of that is dress. And that is fine and part of the individual's spiritual journey. The problem is when we use dress to judge others. The Holy Spirit may have impressed me to buy a special suit just for Sabbath but that doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit has impressed everyone to buy a special suit just for Sabbath. Someone else may be just as spiritual as me, only that the Holy Spirit is working in his life differently. So while dress is an issue in our spiritual lives, there is no hard and fast rule that can be or should be imposed on all. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 What about the Holy Spirit's workings on a mature Christian that lead him/her to believe that dressing in comfortable clothing is what Christ prefers? My Jesus wants me to be comfortable and happy when I worship Him and fellowship with His children. He'd rather have me focused on relationship building than showing respect through fashion. To have others judge my spiritual maturity based on how I dress demonstrates spiritual immaturity on their part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: Shane said: Quote: what's wrong with the youth (or anyone) wearing jeans to church? It is not about obeying a list of rules of do this and not that. It is about respect and our relationship with God....So while dress is an issue in our spiritual lives, there is no hard and fast rule that can be or should be imposed on all. The only issue that dress should play in our spiritual lives is whether or not we have accepted the robe of righteousness Jesus gives us. His Own Righteousness, for we have none of our own. Fine white raiment, shining in the light from the Throne of Abba. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 10, 2006 Author Moderators Share Posted January 10, 2006 Quote: QBJFN said: Pastor Lazarus, if you wish to make a change in people's hearts, first there must be a change in your's! I don't know if you saw what I said....I said the "hard right" might have a problem. For the record I have no problem with folks wearing Jeans to worship God. Thats the whole point of why I may do what I may do! I'm trying to have Jesus change my heart......honest..... i'm a work in progress Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Ah, but if you are not convinced that dress is an important issue, then why change back? Why change your own beliefs to cater to those who will judge you elsewise? Wouldn't you make a more convincing argument if, indeed, you did not change back into what others deem as more appropriate? (And, I apologize for the remark I made. I realized it after I'd made it, but forgot to go back and edit my words.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Showing respect through dress is a cultural issue. Culture plays a role. Now that doesn't mean that we are to judge or rebuke others for their dress. But it does mean that we may examine our own habits of dress in the santurary in light of what is expected by our culture. When I was into drug use, I once attended a church on a Sunday morning. I was dressed in shorts and a t-shirt and was asked to leave because of the way I was dressed. I don't think it had much impact on my life's spiritual journey but do believe that is inappropriate. Quote: What about the Holy Spirit's workings on a mature Christian that lead him/her to believe that dressing in comfortable clothing is what Christ prefers? The Holy Spirit has never convicted me to dress casualy to church. Nor have I ever met anyone that claimed to feel guilty about wearing a suit or dress to a church service. So I cannot really address this hypothetical question. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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