Do you think I'm gonna get fired?

January 11, 2006

*Tacking on

The Jesus that I know in my heart,that is my Lord and Savior would not say, you can't know me because you are wearing jeans. You can't come close to me because you are dressed too casually. You don't even have to be in a church or sanctuary to know the Jesus I know. The Jesus I know and love says come as you are to the foot of the Cross and be saved. Come as you are to the Waters of Life and be saved. Come as you are and Know Me.

In my dream church the man wearing a suit would look upon the man wearing jeans and say, this is my brother and not condemn him his clothing. The plain woman would look upon the woman wearing paint and jewels would say, this is my sister and not condemn her choice. We would not nitpik clothing, jewels, cars, homes, income. We would rejoice that we are all on a different path to the same place. We would rejoice that we are all loved and saved by the same Grace in Jesus Christ.

I believe if Jesus were to show up right now and give a sermon, He would not see our clothing, our bank accounts or anything outside ourselves. He would see our souls blazing with love for Him. That blaze would outshine any jewels on earth.

January 11, 2006

It's not about guilt. It's about comfort.

Have you met anyone who's said, "Man! I can't wait to get home and get into some comfortable clothes!"? On the other hand, have you ever met anyone who's said, "Man! I am so glad I dressed up for church today--the sermon is going extra long and it looks like potluck is gonna be a good one. Yessiree! I am sooo glad I put on these dressier, uncomfortable clothes!"

Have you ever met anyone who's said, "The Holy Spirit is convicting me to wear comfortable clothing to church today--the Lord wants me to be happy and comfortable in His home!"?

Consider yourself introduced.

January 11, 2006

Selfishness is the root of sin. So it is not self-interest that should dictate what we wear. Again, not talking about judging others for what they wear.

The Holy Spirit often uses guilt to convict us of sin. I have never heard someone say they felt the Holy Spirit convict them not to dress nice when they attend church.

It is a matter of respect and relationship. Why should a bride wear a wedding dress to her wedding? Why should the groom wear a tuxedo? Why should a man dress up for a job interview? Why would a young lady where a nice dress to her prom? Why does a businessman wear a suit to the office? Why (for goodness sake) do stockbrokers that only deal with clients on the phone, wear a suit to work?

Business studies have actually shown that the way a person dresses impacts how they do their job. One telemarketing company did away with the dress code for one month. Anything was allowed including shorts, t-shirts and sweat pants. The following month they enforced a strict formal dress code of suits, jackets, ties, dresses and skirts. They found a significant difference in the sales performace of their employees

even though none of the customers ever saw them!

Now we are not to judge those that dress different than us. That is certainly a disputable matter and very subject to one's culture. However that doesn't mean we should examine ourselves and ask God if what we, ourselves, are wearing to church is pleasing to Him. It isn't about God being so loving that He accepts us as we are. No, it is about our love for Him. It is about our response to His love. Yes, God accepts us as we are. How do we react to that love? When we present ourselves to the King of kings, that loves us, that created us, that died for us and will return for us, how does His Spirit convict us we should dress?

January 11, 2006

I don't think a person should have to dress up for any of those things. The reason that people on the job do better isn't because of the clothes they are wearing, but because of the way other people have taught them to believe they should feel about themselves based on what they wear.

I never said the Holy Spirit was prompting me to not dress nicely. The Holy Spirit is prompting me to dress comfortably. There is a difference.

You have said many times that you'd like to wear a kilt, but that you wouldn't because it is not generally acceptable in our society. If it were clean and covered the shame of your nakedness, I do believe it would be acceptable to God.

Ever hear of someone asking a visitor to their home to "take off their coat and stay a while"? Ever hear of someone asking a visitor to "take off their shoes and make yourself at home"? Would a visitor then, be showing disrespect to his host if he were to keep on his jacket or shoes?

God wants us to feel at home. He wants us to be comfortable in His home.

You say it's "not talking about judging others for what they wear." I challenge your statement. For in the very next paragraphs you try to validate your point in saying that employees are more productive based on what they wear. Those very people may not be judging others, but they are judging themselves based on what they think others think about them.

Eve didn't wear a wedding dress when she married Adam. In fact, they were both comfortably naked.

January 11, 2006

I dont think its selfishness to wear comfortable clothes to church. God cannot be impressed by clothing or status or wealth, only man can. So who are you trying to impress by dressing up?

January 12, 2006

Quote:

You have said many times that you'd like to wear a kilt

I understand the role of culture. That is why I don't wear a kilt. Now if a large number of men in my culture started wearing kilts, I would have no problem doing so myself.

Now when I take my kids to see a parade, we dress casually. When we go to the zoo, we dress casually. When we go out shopping, we dress casually. Now when we decide to have a special night, and go out to eat, we dress up. Why? Becuase it is a special night.

Just because we shouldn't judge others for not dressing up to go to church, doesn't mean we shouldn't dress up when we go to church. For many Christian believers, wearing their "Sunday's best" is a means of showing their love and respect for God. And they are right to do so.

In El Salvador the church keeps an extra tie in the church. No men are allowed up front without a tie. So if someone is asked to pray or sing, etc that doesn't have a tie, the one in the church is loaned to him. In their culture, that is part of showing respect to God.

January 12, 2006

Quote:

And they are right to do so.

In the above statement, you've made a judgment of those who choose dress as you do. The term "judgment" does not always mean one is judging another in a poor light.

You're right, Shane, culture does play an important role in the lives of those who allow it to. Culture can be prohibiting as well as liberating. But when some custom is followed because of culture, it is not necessarily correct or right simply because of tradition. All traditions and cultural norms should be reviewed from time to time to see if they fit in with what the Lord wills.

In my experience, the Lord wills for me (maybe it's not the same for you) to be comfortable when I'm in worship. He wants me to be free of the burdens of dressing according to societal norms, and to be focused on my relationship with Him.

January 12, 2006

Quote:

In the above statement, you've made a judgment of those who choose dress as you do.

First, no one here knows how I dress. I live in the tropics and it is doubtful that many here dress as I do. Second, my "judgement" call was that people that have been convicted by the Holy Spirit to wear their "Sunday best" have been right to do so. Each of us should live as convicted by the Holy Spirit.

January 12, 2006

First, you're right no one here knows how you dress other than you don't wear a kilt, and that you do wear your "Sunday best" to church.

Second, you're right--you made a judgment.

Each of us [as individuals--not as a corporate body] should live as convicted by the Holy Spirit.

Lazarus has asked if he should change his style of dress during his sermon to emphasize a point. In addressing his question, I have attempted to show that judgments should never be made about the way other people dress because the reasons we dress the way we do are as varied as are people.

The people in his congregation have no right to judge him or anyone else based on the way they dress. For one man, dressing in blue jeans is acceptable because he has been convicted by the Holy Spirit to dress for comfort. For another man, dressing in a 3-piece suit [with bow tie!] is acceptable because he is convicted by the Holy Spirit to respect (through dress) the Lord.

It seems to me that you are consistenly missing the main thrust of my argument: some people are convicted by the Holy Spirit that dressing for comfort is more important than dressing as their culture would otherwise dictate.

A man may preach from the pulpit in a suit, or a pair of coveralls! Neither should be shunned by the congregation so long as the congregation understands that the Lord's judgment is not based on appearances, but on the heart.

Jeans do not disrespect the Lord anymore than a suit does.

January 12, 2006

(Since I don't want to offend anyone I will reply to myself.)

Hey Norman how are you today? I'm doing alright how about you Norm? Pretty good.

Norm, what do you think about dress codes for church? Codes?? No way, but I do remember a time when a certan king had a wedding feast and some guy came in with inappropiate clothes and got kicked out for it. Really, that pretty harsh. No not really, he knew he should have dressed better that 's why he didn't have any excuse when he was asked why he looked the way he did. Oh I see, but still - I mean at lease he showed up and wanted to support the king. That's what it appears like, but not so. The greatest insult to a king is to show up in inappropriate clothes or common clothes especially when you've been invited into his presnce and you understand how much he has done for you. Well that makes sense.

Norman? yes, go thou and do likewise. You know Norm you're pretty rude. Yea, but think of how you're going to feel when you get kicked out for showing up in the spiritual garb and presumption of Cain. Well, since you put it that way, I will wear my best clothes to honor the best Person.

Good I thought you'd see it my way. Take care Norm, ya you too Norman.

January 12, 2006

Quote:

The greatest insult to a king is to show up in inappropriate clothes or common clothes especially when you've been invited into his presnce and you understand how much he has done for you.

This was a parable. It was meant to be symbolic of something else: the clothing of the heart. When we wear the clothing of Christ's righteousness we are welcomed to His feast. When we don't wear this "clothing" we are not welcome.

January 13, 2006

Quote:

and that you do wear your "Sunday best" to church.

That would be a wrong assumption, if anyone were to make it.

January 13, 2006

Quote:

some people are convicted by the Holy Spirit that dressing for comfort

That would mean when these people dressed up for church the Holy Spirit laid a burdon of guilt on their hearts. I have never met anyone that told me they felt guilty about dressing up when they went to church.

January 13, 2006

When we were working in Papua New Guinea, many of the local people had been converted by some of the wonderful missionaries that had pioneered the work in that country. A number of these missionaries and their families had been culturally conditioned to wesr their "Sunday Best" clothes to the worship service.

So consequently many of the locals picked up the idea that it was appropriate to wear "collar and tie" style of clothing to the worship service on Sabbath - often with a tie no less. This is in a country where the temperature is often above 40 degrees (Celsius - 104 degrees Fahrenheit) and the humidity seems to be about 110%!

Now if I were to perpetuate this nonsense by wearing a similar style of dress in those churches I would most definitely feel guilty. How could I expect anyone doing a very good imitation of a lobster being boiled alive to concentrate on the spiritual food supplied?

Along with other expatriates, we did our best to ensure the people were as neat and comfortable as possible so that they could worship joyfully in the Lord's presence.

So that is at least one example of the Holy Spirit convincing someone to dress comfortably on Sabbath, and to ensure that someone felt guilty when "dressing up" on such an occasion.

Graeme

January 13, 2006

If I follow your example, the "guilt" comes from a person of one culture imposing their dress code on another person. That isn't hard to believe. People from one culture shouldn't impose their cultural dress on another culture.

I believe there are many, many people the Holy Spirit has never spoken to regarding dress. We have no reason to judge another in this disputable matter. Yet I have never known anyone that felt guilty for dressing nice for church.

Here is an example of formal African dress. No tie required.

January 13, 2006

Quote:

Shane said:

Yet I have never known anyone that felt guilty for dressing nice for church.

Well now you have - me.

Read my post again.

Graeme

January 13, 2006

Quote:

Now if I were to perpetuate this nonsense by wearing a similar style of dress in those churches I would most definitely feel guilty.

Now this sounds like a hypothetical sentence. "IF I WERE" is not the same as "WHEN I DID". However the issue here isn't the Holy Spirit impressing someone not to dress in formal attire. The issue is someone imposing formal attire of one culture on a different culture. I can easily understand why the Holy Spirit would impress a person not to impose their cultural dress on someone from another culture.

January 13, 2006

Shane, I apologize for thinking you wear your "Sunday best" to church. My memory must fail me, because I could have sworn that you have told me in the past that you wear a suit to church and that whenever you get a chance to speak that you wear a bow tie.

You keep referring to culture--in my church there are at least 20 different nationalities and cultures represented. To say the very least, there is no one culture that dominates the scene.

Just so you know, there are at least two more people that have felt "guilty" for wearing something more formal to church. But, at least for my part, the guilt is not associated with the things you might think them to be.

I feel guilty because I know that the Lord wants me to be comfortable. Instead, when I dress "up" for church, I do it because others tell me I'm not respecting God if I don't. I've heard the statement (more than once), "Oh, yeah, but you'd never dress like that (in blue jeans) here! We just don't do that sort of thing!"

_________

This is the last post I'm making in this thread. You are not seeing my point(s) at all.

I'll leave you with this: It was not a woman who invented panty hose, but a man. A tie is a heathen symbol (do the research yourself). High heels are the worst form of shoe for a woman to wear. Cotton socks can help prevent athlete's foot. Makeup clogs the pores. Rolex has a shelf life the same as Timex.

Indeed, instead of worrying about all these things next Sabbath, I'm going to be comfortable and happy.

January 13, 2006

I often do wear a bow tie when I am asked to speak but I am not in a suit. I own a suit and can only wear it when the tempenture is cool. I often go more than a year without wearing my suit. But enough about me, I am not the topic here.

The United States has its own culture which is a "melting pot". There are various sub cultures here but "American" culture is unique and consists of many others blended together. Multiculture groups in the US are actually multi-subcultures. Mexican-American culture actually is not the same as Mexican culture. The same is true of other ethnic groups and cultures.

Formal attire is not the same in all cultures - nor is casual attire for that matter. Many missionaries have made the error of pushing their cultural attire on other cultures.

January 14, 2006

Hi QB

Quote:

This was a parable. It was meant to be symbolic of something else: the clothing of the heart. When we wear the clothing of Christ's righteousness we are welcomed to His feast. When we don't wear this "clothing" we are not welcome.

Yes this was a parable but the reason Jesus used it is because it was the custom of the day and they could relate to that parable.

The point I was making was that out of respect and reverence for God, proper attire is fitting when we visit the King of the universe.

Think of the first time you met with you sweetheart and you went out on a date. There was anticipation, hope, joy excitement and appropriate clothing to convey the message you wanted to give to him.

Once when living in Canada, not too long before I moved here there was a young woman who liked me and wanted to know if I was interested in maybe praying to see if God would have us be together. I said ok but really had no intensions of being with her unless I had a clear sign from God.

On a certain Sabbath there was a youth rally and she was on the platform and I thought well that's good. Then I looked closely at her and saw that she had a skirt on that had a slit all the way up to her the top of her thigh. My thougts were, "No way she's not for me." Why, was she evil or trying to be seductive? No, but I reasoned that if someone could dress like that and have everyone know that she doesn't mind this, she would be very hard to reason with. That was not what I was looking for in a realtionship. That was the deciding factor for me. I didn't hate her nor did I treat her with condemnation but I knew she was not for me.

So when when we go to church to meet with Jesus, our Father and worship God, there is a message we convey with our clothing. It should be one of reverence, respect and love. For to me showing up in church on Sabbath in jeans would be an insult to God. I wouldn't show up like that for a dinner invitation with an enemy. We are a royal priesthood a holy nation to God and for me to show up in jeans would be deny that calling.

See this link,

http://ezinearticles.com/?What-Your-Clothes-Say-About-You---The-Good,-Bad,-and-Ugly&id=120666

Actually you'll have to copy and paste that link

Norman

January 14, 2006

You're not understanding my point at all either. Saying that a person should (rightly or wrongly) be judged by what they wear is as insulting as saying that a person should (could) be judged on skin color.

Murderers, rapists, child abusers--they dress in suits, sneakers, sweaters, wing-tips--reveal nothing about their true selves by what they wear. Ministers, lay evangelists, businessmen/women--they dress in suits, robes, dresses--reveal nothing about their true selves by what they wear.

I fully understand that people will consistently judge others by their attire. I understand that completely. I am saying that it is wrong--it is a paradigm that needs to be shifted.

To dress according to cultural standards shows that a person cares about cultural standards. It does not reveal the true nature of the heart.

Showing up for a job interview with a suit, tie and shined shoes reveals nothing more than that the interviewee knows how to play the system. He/she may be a poor worker and not devoted to the task--but instead, trying to make a "good" first impression--albeit a false one.

I wonder if you dress for worship and prayer when you are alone in your closet at home. Do you show your respect for God even in those moments by what you wear, or is it only when you are in the company of others?

January 14, 2006

Quote:

Saying that a person should (rightly or wrongly) be judged by what they wear is as insulting as saying that a person should (could) be judged on skin color.

I will be quite surprised if this statment was made by a racial minority. If one could only change their skin color as easily as they could change their attire...

Quote:

Showing up for a job interview with a suit, tie and shined shoes reveals nothing more than that the interviewee knows how to play the system. He/she may be a poor worker and not devoted to the task--but instead, trying to make a "good" first impression--albeit a false one.

Again, I will be very surprised if this statement is made by a small business owner that employees profesionals or a manager who does the hiring for a profesional firm.

January 14, 2006

Quote:

Norman said:

It should be one of reverence, respect and love. >>For to me<< showing up in church on Sabbath in jeans would be an insult to God. Norman

I'm glad you included >> <<, Norm. The article written (good, bad, ugly) was obviously addressed to a nation of people who comprise 2% of the world's population while using

25% of the earths accessible resources to meet their perceived needs. One who has one blanket to use for modesty

in the day time and using the same attire for the night's protection against the cold would proably have little understanding of the advice given other than to elicit wishful thinking.

It's seems worthwhile to consider the fact that in this day and age of the rapid expansion of the spread of the gospel message, alluding to the context of pampered and spoiled recipients of the grace of God is a worthwhile goal for the sake of those with lesser means, even in our own country.

[:"red"] "I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me;

Behold, Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia:

'This one was born there.'" [/]

Psalm 87:4 NASB

[:"red"] "I will record Egypt and Babylon among those who know me--

also Philistia and Tyre, and even distant Ethiopia.

They have all become citizens of Jerusalem!" [/] Psalms 87:4 NLT

Blessings!

January 14, 2006

Quote:

Cricket said:

the Lord wills for me.... to be free.... to be focused on my relationship with Him.

Consider it a weakness of mine, that I do not feel that same freedom when I know many of the members of the body of Christ are focused on me for whatever reason, instead of seeing the Jesus Whom they came to worship.

[:"red"] "For it seems to me that God has made an exhibit of us apostles, exposing us to view last [of all, like men in a triumphal procession who are] sentenced to death [and displayed at the end of the line]. For we have become a spectacle to the world [a show in the world's amphitheater] with both men and angels [as spectators]. " [/] 1 Corinthians 4:9 AMP (apostle: one sent on a mission)

[:"red"] "And when Christ, who is your real life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. " [/] Colossians 3:4 NLT

Keep looking up!!

January 14, 2006

The wonderful thing about capitalism is that it enriches all classes. There are still areas of the world where some people only have one change of clothing, however, due to capitalism, even those in most third world countries like Kenya and Columbia can afford more than one change of clothing. Yet I suspect many of those living in the poorest of conditions will wash and iron their cothing before attending divine services.

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