When mass shooters are Muslim...

[CoAspen]

In parts of the world catholics are persecuted, jews are persecuted, muslims are persecuted, christians are persecuted, etc, etc.....and percentage numbers have little to do with the issue, more of a distraction from reality.

The reality is a lack of true caring for others. Not equating all humankind with the same basic right to life , expression, freedom of belief and just plain kindness. Organized religion focuses on differences rather than community. All site their God as having given them the right to declare themselves as the true depository of 'truth' and the way to God. For christians they gloss over the main thrust of Christ teachings, doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. He spent His life here helping others, not finding ways to withhold taking care of needs. SDA's also spend too much time focusing on the end time and see themselves as victims.

No one is immune from the effects of self first before others.

[Sojourner]

 

Of the mass shootings in the US this year, at least two have been by rightwingers. People who are extremists of many of the views you hold, in the same way Muslim shooters are extremists of the views of mainstream Islam.

How do we determine what an 'extremist' is in the religion of Islam? In Saudi Arabia the people considered to be "Moderates" cut peoples hands off for stealing because of instructions to do so in the Koran, is that not extremism? Yet at the same time is it not also completely acceptable and endorsed by the teaching of  moderate Islam in Saudi Arabia? Can a muslim only be considered Moderate if they live in a western nation and reject items of scripture from the Koran as being unacceptable and in error?

[Mark Aurelius]

Lazarus: It was incidental. All that talk of OT stories and so on is adduced after the decision to justify it in terms acceptable to the culture. That wanton abuse of native peoples is not taught in the NT. The OT was a theocracy set up by a stream of miracles and the establishment of the temple worship centred around the 1o Commandments handed down at Sinai. The american colonists had no claim to that.

The ancient greeks, the romans, the assyrians, to name the ones I have some knowledge of, all simplified their expansions by removing inconvenient populations. The same power-grabbing impulse was present in the European expansion. It is an ugly fact of history. But it is not part of the christian world view as taught in the NT.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Mark Aurelius

[Bravus]

  Nice try! I believe I have also posted that more than one of the mass murderers were young men who were medicated as young boys. This is often mostly done thru the schools with their radfem ideologies. The Charleston shooter has been reported to be one of the medicated boys.

Also, many mass shooters were Democrats. Imagine that! The Aurora shooter is reprted to have been part of the occupy movement.

http://joeforamerica.com/2014//mass-murderers-democrats/

Of course. When men mass murder - and it's overwhelmingly men who do - it's women's fault. I should have known.

MRA eats your brain, and explains everything. It's a pernicious mind virus.

[Mark Aurelius]

Bravus, where do you get women-blaming from that? I took that to be side effects of ritalin or some such behaviour modifying drug that schools seem to be recommending for overactive boys. I have lost one friend who was on a drug against depression, and some of those drugs are associated with mood swings of despair and impulsive behaviour. Not that that mean ritalin does that effect, but it seems to suggest that behaviour modification by drugs can have unexpected consequences.
 

[Bravus]

You may have missed the word 'radfem', which is short for 'radical feminist'. 

[Mark Aurelius]

You may have missed the word 'radfem', which is short for 'radical feminist'. 

 

OK, so it does mention women, but if it is true that there is a connection between committing mass shootings and having been on behaviour modifying drugs, and that feminists have supported the use of those drugs, which are given to boys far more than to girls, then the connection could be valid. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFpYj0E-yb4

Edited July 27, 2015 by Mark Aurelius

[Bravus]

I'd need to see a much, much stronger analysis done than any I've seen here of that link.

One that looked into and eliminated the possibility that there is a correlation - which has not yet been supported with evidence - that is due to the reverse causation: mental illness leading to medication, rather than vice versa.

If that possibility was eliminated, and a causal link between the medication and the violence was strongly established, it would *still* be necessarily to demonstrate that 'radfem ideology' has any strong influence on the way schooling is done, and that it was that influence that caused the boys to be medicated.

And even if all of that was established, that would also mean that Islam was not the cause of mass shootings.

It's drawing a very long and evidence-free bow based on existing prejudices.

[Mark Aurelius]

Well, the feminists and boys in school issue is just another way of exploring the nature of prejudice, not a way to say that Islam is a cause of mass shootings. We tangented off onto that.

But I think that idea, that school has become out of touch with boys and that maybe ritalin has unwanted long-range effects, and that maybe our society is too beholden to the feminist analysis of things and should think about how boys are benefiting or suffering from the way we do school, is a very valuable topic. Why have we had so much action to sort out why girls were not doing as well as they could, but we leave boys in the lurch? I have even seen an Aussie woman in a TV panel discussion say that there is no problem.

Maybe we are trained not to see certain things by our world-view, ideology: like a connection between Islam and violence, or a negative aspect to feminism. The left seems to want to see Islam as a morally neutral culture, in keeping with its generally laudable aims for multicultural societies. And the left seems to think feminism is almost synonymous with progress, and cannot be criticised. 

I think the truth is very important and requires questioning ideologies or world views, or darling causes, or whatever. Mass shootings are a very strange behaviour, and very serious. I wouldn't expect one's natural intution to give much insight, so lots of avenues would have to be explored.

[Mark Aurelius]

When a man attacks or kills his wife/gf, we blame the patriarchal system of oppression, i.e. the whole gender.

When a woman attacks or kills her husband/bf, we think What a bastard he must have been to get that.

 

[Bravus]

The points raised deserve a detailed response, but I'm in bed on my phone, so it'll have to wait until the morning. 

In brief, though, there is a very large body of literature on boys and school. I'll link to some of it in the morning. 

[hch]

...or can be claimed to be on flimsy evidence, their crime is attributed to the whole religion.

When they are racist or misogynist or Christian, their crime is attributed to them as individuals.

It's a double standard and is the epitome of prejudice and stereotyping.

The real explanation, in both cases, is no doubt a combination of individual psychopathology and ideology.

The Oklahoma City bomber had a strong religious ideology.

He started out RCC and went wacko after Waco that was linked to an off-shoot from SDA.

If his crime was "attributed to the whole religion" which religion would get the blame?

[bonnie]

I would have to take the time to go back and read the information again but I don't believe Timothy McVeigh identified as a christian but as a agnostic

[bonnie]

conservapedia.com

Timothy McVeigh

 

Timothy McVeigh was the main perpetrator in the Oklahoma City Bombing on April 19, 1995, which killed 168 people in the worst act of domestic terrorism in American history. He was pulled over that afternoon by Lieutenant Charles Hanger for driving without a license plate, and arrested after Lt. Hanger found an unregistered firearm in his car. ^[1] McVeigh was a veteran of Operation Desert Storm. Contrary to the popular and oft-repeated belief among liberals and atheists, McVeigh was not a right-wing evangelical Christian. In fact, McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic, but professed agnosticism.^[2] His political beliefs were libertarian.

Contents  [hide] 1 Motivations 2 Leftist conspiracy theories 3 Other theories 4 Execution 5 References

Motivations

McVeigh intended to avenge the deaths among the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, a third of which were members of minority groups, including 30 blacks, as well as 6 Hispanics and 7 Asians and including a number of interracial marriages. ^[3] McVeigh's accomplice, Terry Nichols was himself married to a Philippine national despite widespread allegations spread through the mainstream media of racial motivations behind the bombings. McVeigh was politically profiled in Brandon Stickney's All-American Monster - The Unauthorized Biography of Timothy McVeigh. In an interview with Lawrence W. Myers in Media Bypass magazine:

“

McVeigh said he considers unfair and unfounded the notion that the mainstream press has classified him as a racist simply because he had read The Turner Diaries. He said he responded to a gun magazine advertisement for the book around 1988 because it was being billed as a novel about what may happen when the government comes to confiscate privately owned firearms. McVeigh also pointed out, and his sergeant confirms, that while in the Army he served alongside black soldiers without incident or problem, and when he lived off base, he and Michael Fortier routinely gave rides to work to two fellow soldiers who were black. Although there were no African-Americans in McVeigh’s graduating class, and few in his hometown, according to the U. S. Army there are no reported incidents of him having any professional problems as a soldier dealing with other races. Furthermore, McVeigh’s platoon sergeant was black and his platoon leader was black, and both gave him the highest ratings an infantry soldier can attain. [4]

”

Leftist conspiracy theories

Following the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing Leonard Zeskind teamed with James Ridgeway, who writes about right-wing politics for various liberal and leftist serials, and they produced a conspiracy theory of their very own.

“

There is every reason to believe that the attack was a call for revolution by the far right wing of this country, organized through the widespread militia movement and carried out by one of the leaderless terror cells created by that movement. It is probable that the three men being held in connection with the bombing—Timothy McVeigh, James Nichols and his brother Terry Nichols—are all members of that same militia cell. [5]

”

None of this proved true, and one of the most intensive investigations in FBI history has failed to link these three to any militia organization in any significant way whatsoever. In addition, James Nichols was not even a defendant in the case. The article also refers to the Posse Comitatus, a radical tax protest group of mythical proportions, as a precursor to the militias.

In 1996 Zeskind was also a contributor along with Chip Berlet and others to Conspiracies: Real Grievances, Paranoia, and Mass Movements, edited by Eric Ward and published by PeanutButter Publishing. The general thrust of their contributions was to attack conspiracy theories of the right while ignoring those of the left. ^[6]

Other theories

McVeigh's first lead defense counsel Stephen Jones coauthored a book titled Others Unknown: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing Conspiracy in which he suggests that McVeigh's co-conspirator Terry Nichols had connections to Islamic terrorists in the Philippines, among other possibilities.

Some have suggested that Jose Padilla bears a resemblance to John Doe #2, who was initially identified as a suspect in the bombing. [1]

Execution

[bonnie]

McVeigh was labeled right wing christian(wacko) in the news frequently  

[B/W Photodude]

MRA eats your brain, and explains everything. It's a pernicious mind virus.

Bravus, I found your comment, which has been made before, to be rude and insulting. Unfortunately, to many sources I have read, the radfem problems for men in Oz are worse than in the USA. And you aren't helping them.

Mark Aurelius, thank you for your input into this discussion.

Apparently, the fact the schools are under much radfem ideologies doesn't agree with everyone here. However, there are many who feel there is a radfem ideology in the schools of this nation and boys are suffering for it, which is a goal of the radfems.

Christina Hoff Summers wrote a book called "The War Against Boys" in which she discussed at length the treatment of boys in the academic world in this country including how boys are penalized for being boys. She describes how at risk boys in the schools systems are faring under this maltreatment. "More and more schoolboys inhabit a milieu of disapproval. Routinely regarded as protosexists, potential harassers, the perpetuators of gender inequity, boys live under a cloud of censure, in a permanent state of culpability. Martin Spafford, a high school teacher in London, has made observations about British boys that apply to American boys as well. Spafford favored the pro-girl, anti-sexist measures of the 80s. But now he observes the boys are under seige, "boys feel continually attacked for who they are. We have created a sense in school that masculinity is a something bad. Boys feel blamed for history, and a school culture has grown up which is suspicious and frightened of boys."

In my own experience, I often find boys expecting to be "attacked for who they are."In 1997, I delivered a commencement address at the Hun Academy, a private high school in Princeton, New Jersey. Following the graduation, a group of young men told me they were gratefully surprised that I had not said anything against them: "When we heard you were going to talk on feminism we figured we were going to be attacked at our own graduation." When I spoke at another prep school, the Westminster School in Connecticut, the feminist dean who invited me told me that she did not agree with my position on gender and education, but if she invited one more speaker with a strong feminist message the boys would rebel. The message of male sinfulness is broadcast constantly. Boys at University High School in Pacific Heights, California, are obliged to sit quietly through an annual "Women's Assembly" in which women are celebrated and men are blamed. One student who endured it told me that three boys had slipped out. The miscreants were caught walking back to class and duly punished."

Another problem is that large numbers of school children are being medicated with serious drugs (I am talking the kind that require narcotic counts in hospitals and are in the scheduled class of drugs by the government). Ritalin which is prescribed for ADHD, or what is sometimes described as normal boy behavior, is given to boys at a three to 1 ratio - boys more than girls. In discussions I have had with clinical pharmacists, one of the long term side effects of Ritalin and similar drugs are irreversible paranoid schophrenias. Oddly enough, meth addicts get those kind of problems.

Ritalin is said to have been the drug a disease was invented for, as it had nothing it could be used to treat until the diagnosis of ADHD. 

Are we medicating a disorder or treating boyhood as a disease?

Last year, more than two million prescriptions for Ritalin and other ADHD drugs were written specifically for children under 17, and at least 75 per cent of them were for young males.

The decline of male teachers in primary schools, Prof. Bradley suspects, is partly to blame for ballooning drug use - "What are we drugging? Female teachers who don't understand boys like to run and jump and shout - that's what boys do."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/part-3-are-we-medicating-a-disorder-or-treating-boyhood-as-a-disease/article4330080/?page=all

Girls get extra school help while boys get Ritalin 

One fact explains why educators are ignoring boys' needs: You can't address a problem that you don't admit exists. The U.S. Department of Education (news - web sites) concedes that no serious research is available comparing different instructional methods that might help boys. In fact, many education researchers are hostile toward research aimed at exploring gender differences in learning.

Last April, when Kenneth Dragseth, superintendent of schools in Edina, Minn., presented a paper describing his district's gender gap at the American Educational Research Association's annual meeting in Chicago, he says the reception ranged from chilly to hostile. Female education researchers in the audience questioned whether helping boys would mean hurting girls.

Theoretically, teachers are professionals. Figure out how to help boys without hurting girls!

Their attitude follows years of lobbying by groups such as the American Association of University Women, which alerted educators to the fact that girls were being shortchanged academically in the fields of math and science. The extra attention helped focus schools on girls' difficulties, but it has made it too easy for educators to overlook the problems of boys.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/972970/posts

Another study funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse revealed that Ritalin causes physical changes in neurons in reward regions of mouse brains and these effects were similar to the long-term side effects of cocaine. 

The result of the damage done by Ritalin in the brain is similar to frontal lobe syndrome. Over time, frontal lobe syndrome can render a person increasingly incapable of inhibiting impulsive behaviors. In addition, such damage contributes to the onset of clinical depression.

http://www.thefix.com/content/research-shows-ritalin-causes-long-term-brain-injury

I included the following link because of the similarities of Ritalin to cocaine.

Long-term effects of cocaine use include addiction, irritability and mood disturbances, restlessness, paranoia, and auditory hallucinations.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/cocaine

 

[CoAspen]

Its a conspiracy! I knew it!! Run and hide men, women are out to get you!!

[Bravus]

Bravus, I found your comment, which has been made before, to be rude and insulting.

Apologies. I will attempt to be more civil.

You're attacking women and education, the two things I love most in the world.

I believe that the attack on women, and the claim that feminism is the cause of mass shootings, is completely baseless, and demonstrates a misunderstanding of the nature of evidence.

I laid out, clearly, the logical and evidentiary steps that would be necessary to support that claim, and I'm afraid long pages of copied and pasted text from the same sorts of sources does not meet that standard.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Bravus

[Bravus]

There is in fact a very strong educational research literature about reasons for the underperformance of boys: they are definitely not 'left in the lurch', and nor is the intersection of their nature and abilities with the nature of schooling an ignored research problem. (To learn this, it is necessary to read the educational research, not commentators with an agenda commenting on their perceptions of the educational research.)

Here's a review from this year of one scholarly book focused on this issue: http://csx.sagepub.com/content/44/1/98.full

For someone eager to dig in to the relevant literature and inform him/herself, it's a good place to start.

[Bravus]

Mark Aurelius wrote: "Maybe we are trained not to see certain things by our world-view, ideology: like a connection between Islam and violence, or a negative aspect to feminism. The left seems to want to see Islam as a morally neutral culture, in keeping with its generally laudable aims for multicultural societies. And the left seems to think feminism is almost synonymous with progress, and cannot be criticised."

I think you're hearing things I'm not saying. There are very valid critiques of radical Islam: I am a million miles from condoning murder. Similarly for feminism, of course there are valid critiques of it.

What I'm doing is pointing out invalid critiques. It is a failure of logic to leap from 'this critique is invalid' to 'there is no such thing as a valid critique'. It's like saying 'this dog is not a cat' means 'there is no such thing as a cat'.

[B/W Photodude]

1. You're attacking women and education, the two things I love most in the world.

2.I believe that the attack on women, and the claim that feminism is the cause of mass shootings, is completely baseless, 

3. I laid out, clearly, the logical and evidentiary steps that would be necessary to support that claim, and I'm afraid long pages of copied and pasted text from the same sorts of sources does not meet that standard.

1. As I have stated several times here, radfems and women are not the same thing. Many women, and the numbers are rapidly increasing, are distancing themselves from the feminist label. And since many men claim to be feminists, you have another problem with your "attack on women" argument. As far as the attack on education, deal with it. I posted several things from a variety of websites and books that look at different angles of the problem. Because you don't like them does not invalidate them.

2. Many have made the connections and while there are many factors that go into it, there is a clear chain of events leading the mass shooting and seems to be present in a large percentage if not the majority of the backgrounds of shooters:

a. feminist ideologies that attempt to put down the eagerness and willingness of boys to learn

b. the medication of boys to subdue them in the classroom with the long term side effects of brain damage

c. political ideologies taught in the classroom evidenced by the fact that most of the shooters have had liberal/democratic party leanings ranging to very left wing radical beliefs.

3. Sorry, but the fact that you do not like my sources does not invalidate them. Probably the clinical pharmacists that I referenced were just street corner drug pushers! 

[CoAspen]

Substance abuse may/can cause >addiction, irritability and mood disturbances, restlessness, paranoia, and auditory hallucinations.<

From wiki >Substance abuse, also known as drug abuse and substance use disorder, is a patterned use of a drug in which the user consumes the substance in amounts or with methods which are harmful to themselves or others, and is a form of substance-related disorder. Widely differing definitions of drug abuse are used in public health, medical and criminal justice contexts.

Lets play honestly!!

 

[Bravus]

"most of the shooters have had liberal/democratic party leanings ranging to very left wing radical beliefs"

Citation please. Names and agendas. I am aware of *zero* mass shooters from the left. If that's ignorance on my part I'll be delighted to have it lifted.

[B/W Photodude]

Citation please. Names and agendas. I am aware of *zero* mass shooters from the left. If that's ignorance on my part I'll be delighted to have it lifted.

Ya gotta read the whole thread. A list has already been posted and I have seen it multiple times before.

[CoAspen]

>b. the medication of boys to subdue them in the classroom with the long term side effects of brain damage<

Females have the same issues as boys, thought you fail to mention that, I have a granddaughter with attention problems and has used Ritalin to control that.  Trying to use the example of it being used in boys as a 'radfem' plot is well, but a figment in someones imagination.

Care to show us from a scientific journal support for the idea? Don't fall for 'percentages prove'. Give us some real data from scientific study. The issue is very complicated.

I personally think that the drug/s may be over prescribed and in some cases not needed. My granddaughter no longer uses it because she has learned to control her behavior, to some extant.