If you would be perfect, go sell what you possess and give to the poor

[Robert]

That quote came from Matthew 19:21.

I've heard [mainly from those quoting EGW] that "he was making a god of his possessions". Okay, let's for argument sake say that is true. Why would Christ demand that He give up all his possessions?

Let's bring it to modern times. In my neighborhood most of the homes are about 1800 square feet...the cars? used Toyotas and Fords, etc. A few miles away you have new homes that are 4000 square feet and new cars such as Mercedes, Porsche, etc....

Let's say that this rich young man lived now and he lived in one of those 4000 square foot homes with a couple Mercedes. And yes, let's say he loves these things more than he loves the Lord.

One day he asks the Lord, who is passing by... "what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” Jesus replies: "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

“Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, ”‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, sell what you possess and give [the money] to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Why didn't Jesus say, "I understand you need a home and a decent car like in that neighborhood where the homes are 1,800 square feet and the cars are cheaper and used. So you can keep some of the money to get yourself a decent home and car"?

Instead He said, “If you want to be perfect, sell what you possess and give [the money] to the poor...."

Why????

[Clio]

Because it is only when you are in a place where you must rely totally on Abba and Jesus that one's faith truly grows.

If you know someone with the kind of faith that is almost incredible, the kind people describe as a "towering" faith, and nothing ever seems to rock them, those are the people with the personal stories that will blow your minds.

Check it out. Look around you for someone who seems to consistently go through trials that would make your hair turn white, and who seem to never be rocked, or who have a peace and love in their life that amaze people in the face of their trials.

Those are people who have learned to rely on Abba for every single thing in their lives.

How do they learn that? By being placed in positions where they MUST rely on Him for every single thing. Including daily food, daily shelter, clothing, daily gasoline, paying the utilities, etc. etc. etc.

I once met a homeless person who told me that they were on an experiment for a year. They were relying on Abba for everything. Not in a lazy way, but moving among the homeless, telling the story of Jesus, and living as the homeless live.

This person's first prayer in the morning, was "Jesus, what You got for me to do today. Is there someone I can bless?"

To my way of thinking, this is a bit extreme, but... this person had a faith that towered over others. Truly a peace that passes all understanding.

Clio

[archierieus]

We can know several things from looking at Scripture:

1) No specific reason is given in the story;

2) The record does say that he went away sorrowful, because he had great possessions;

3) Throughout Scripture, God does not typically ask people to sell everything they had.

From this info, we might gather that there may have been some special reason why Jesus said what He did in this case.

Being complete for this person, would have required the selling of his possessions. Thus, his possessions would seem to have been an obstacle to his being complete. That is evidenced by his response: he went away sorrowful. If God had first place in his life, then why would he go away sorrowful? Therefore, we might reasonably conclude that his possessions were more important to him than God--IOW an idol.

Regards, Dave

[Robert]

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Therefore, we might reasonably conclude that his possessions were more important to him than God--IOW an idol.

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But his possessions included what I would call a necessity, i.e., shelter in the form of a home. Why would Jesus want someone homeless?

[Nan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

But his possessions included what I would call a necessity, i.e., shelter in the form of a home. Why would Jesus want someone homeless?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Jesus Himself was homeless. Maybe He could see in this man the potential for great works in His name - if the rich young man was not fettered by earthly cares.

[Robert]

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Clio said:

Because it is only when you are in a place where you must rely totally on Abba and Jesus that one's faith truly grows.

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I tend to agree with your assumption, but if you look at the context of my quote [Matt 19:16-26] you'll notice that issue centers around "works of the law" [legalism] instead of "works of faith".

Case in point - look at his some what legalistic question: "What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" How did Jesus answer him? "Keep the law"!

In the book of Acts I find a similar question: "What shall I do to be saved?" Note the answer: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved...."

This question doesn't ask, "[1]What good thing shall I do?"...it asks, "[2]what shall I do". The first question involves works and the second involves faith.

Does that make sense?

Rob

[Robert]

I've studied this and have come to my own conclusions. Of course I remain open on this subject, hence my questions.

Now please allow me to use EGW to simulate this post further. The reason I'm using EGW? Unless EGW gives her stamp of approval some Adventists will not listen!

Having said that, here are two of her quotes. When taken as a whole I believe they answer why the rich young man coveted his possessions.

• "The rich young ruler thought that he loved God until Jesus revealed his idol to him, and showed him that he was making a god of his possessions." [uL, p. 29]

  "These words (how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God) astonished the disciples. [:"red"]They had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven[/]; worldly power and riches they themselves hoped to receive in the Messiah's kingdom; if the rich were to fail of entering the kingdom, what hope could there be for the rest of men? [COL 393]

From the above quotes I see 2 problems:

1] His possessions were an "idol to him".

2] He trusted in His riches to get him into heaven. I get that from Mark 10:24-27 and EGW:

Here's my Bible reference:

"But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man [who trusts in his riches] to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they [the disciples] were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved? 27 Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God. [1901 American Standard Version]

What the disciples were asking was, "If a rich man can't make to heaven, who can?" What does being rich have to do with going to heaven?

Now EGW:

"They [the disciples] had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven."

The questions are,

1] Why were they [the Jews in general] taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven? And

2] What does being rich have to do with going to heaven?

Rob

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Robert said:

(Jesus) said, “

If you want to be perfect,

sell what you possess

and give [the money] to the poor...."

Why????

---

Robert, I'm wondering: did God ask this of you specifically and personally? It seems like it's been troubling you for some time now, so I was wondering.

[Robert]

Quote:

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Nicodema said:

Robert, I'm wondering: did God ask this of

you

specifically and personally? It seems like it's been troubling you for some time now, so I was wondering.

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How could He ask me?..we've never talked.

Seriously..."no"! Usually when I bring this subject up I am debating with Gerry, but that's not the issue here. I guess I'm trying to illustrate that we can't just look at a few verses without analyzing them within the time they were written. Specifically, what were the issues then in the broader context of the Bible?

Would you mind trying to answer the questions I posed?

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

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Robert said:

• "They [the disciples] had been taught
  to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven."
  The questions are,
  1] Why were they [the Jews in general] taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven? And
  2] What does being rich have to do with going to heaven?

---

No one has replied, so I'll give you my answers:

1] They learned that from "The book of the law"!

2] Because to the Jew of Christ's time a rich man was a good

man prospered by God because of his law obedience. In other words rich people go to heaven!

Here's the evidence:

Deut. 28:1 “Now it shall be, if you will diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 “And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you will obey the Lord your God....11 And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity....

Deut 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments....

Now do you see why he trusted in his possessions? Right...because his riches proved his righeousness!

That's why EGW says, "A rich man, as such, cannot enter heaven. His wealth gives him no title to the inheritance of the saints in light. It is only through the unmerited grace of Christ that any man can find entrance into the city of God."

[Robert]

Quote:

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Now please allow me to use EGW to simulate this post further.

---

Huh, that should be stimulate!

[Robert]

• As the young man turned away, Jesus said to His disciples, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God."

  These words astonished the disciples. [:"red"]They had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven[/]; worldly power and riches they themselves hoped to receive in the Messiah's kingdom; if the rich were to fail of entering the kingdom, what hope could there be for the rest of men? [COL 393]

Okay...clearly "they had been taught" that the rich were the favorites of heaven. Where did they [the Jews] get this idea?

Before I answer this question let's go to the Bible. Let's read Mark 10:23-27

• 23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words.

  But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them [:"red"]that trust in riches[:"black"] to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man [who trusts in his riches] to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved? [1901 American Standard Version]

What does salvation [being saved] have to do with "trusting" in one’s wealth…being the favorites of heaven?

Turn to the book of the law, Deuteronomy 27:26:

• ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

  28:1 “NOW it shall be, if you will diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 “And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you will obey the LORD your God….

  Verse 11: And the LORD will make you abound in prosperity….

In the days of Christ a Jew was taught that if you obey God’s law [the Torah] then in return God would open up the sky and pour buckets of the green stuff into your lap. In other words the proof of being “a commanment-keeper” was your wealth. Even today “the world” tends to look at a rich man as a good man blessed of God. Hence, to the Jews a rich man was a good man .

So when Christ said, “It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man [who trusts in his riches] to enter into the kingdom of God”, the disciples fully understood His position. That’s why they were amazed! In their eyes if a rich man, blessed of God for His obedience, couldn’t make it into heaven then who could be saved.

So if any of your good commandment-keeping Adventists are looking to your wealth as proof of your goodness to enter into life, then Christ has bad news for you….That’s the issue!

[Gerr]

Is God in the business of making His subjects poor & homeless?

"Honor the Lord with your wealth and the firstfruits from all your crops. Then your barns will be full, and your wine barrels will be full with new wine." Prov 3:9,10 NCV

"The world of the generous gets larger and larger, the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller." Prov 11:24 Message.

God asked 10% not 100% of one's income. And when the believer returns his tithe, the promise is not poverty but prosperity. "And try Me now in this,....if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it." Mal 3:8-12.

"And the LORD will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you. The LORD will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. And the LORD will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandmenmts of the LORD your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them."" Dt 28:11-13 NKJ

"Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time - houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions - and in the age to come, eternal life." Mk 10:29,30 NKJ.

So what did Jesus mean then when He told the Rich Young Ruler to "sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me?" Lk 18:22 NKJ.

When the young man heard this, the record says, "But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." Mk 10:22.

Then in v.23,24 Mark says, "Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, 'How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were astonished at His words."

But the key to understanding what He said is in the latter part of v.24, "Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." v.25.

Apparently the Rich Young Ruler trusted in his wealth more than he trusted Jesus. And as long as his heart & trust were in his wealth, it would be impossible for him to enter the kingdom of God, hence Jesus' command to get rid of it.

I believe God only asks us to get rid of those things that come between Him & us. That is how I understand the command to pluck out the eye, cut the arm, hate father & mother, wife & children, brothers & sisters, if they keep me out of heaven.

Gerry

[Gerr]

"The followers of Christ are not to despise wealth; they are to look upon wealth as the Lord's entrusted talent. By a wise use of His gifts, they may be eternally benefitted, but we are to bear the fact in mind that God has not given us riches to use just as we shall fancy, to indulge impulse, to bestow or withold as we shall please." CS 133

"The Bible does not condemn the rich man because he is rich; it does not declare the acquisition of wealth to be a sin, nor does it say that money is the root of all evil. On the contrary, the Scriptures state that it is God who gives the power to get wealth. And this ability is a previous talent if consecrated to God and employed to advance His cause. The Bible does not condemn genius or art; for these come of the wisdom which God gives. We cannot make the heart purer or holier by clothing the body in sackcloth, or depriving the home of all that ministers to comfort, taste, or convenience.

"The Scriptures teach that wealth is a dangerous possession only when placed in competition with the immortal treasure." Ibid 138

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Apparently the Rich Young Ruler trusted in his wealth more than he trusted Jesus.

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Yes, but why did he trust in his riches? As both the Bible and EGW infers...The Jews "had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven"....Why? Because even today people tend to look at the rich as rewarded of God because of their goodness!

If God selects some to be poor and others to be rich, God sins because according to His own law He can't show personal favoritism [see James 2:8,9]

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Apparently the Rich Young Ruler trusted in his wealth more than he trusted Jesus.

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Yes, but why did he trust in his riches? As both the Bible and EGW infers...The Jews "had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven"....Why? Because even today people tend to look at the rich as rewarded of God because of their goodness!

---

[:"blue"]People trust in possessions for different reasons. For unbelievers who live by sight & not by faith, tangible assests are more trustworthy than something they can't see. If one has no hope beyond this life, then the philosophy is - you only have one life to live, so get all the gusto you can get. Or, eat & drink for tomorrow we die.

Because of the promises of blessings or curses in Dt 28, 28, it is not difficult to see why the wealthy Jews would think that they were therefore the favorites of heaven because they were rich. Bear in mind that riches can also be acquired dishonestly and not necessarily due to divine blessings. Many wealthy CEOs are in trouble today because they have acquired wealth dishonestly. Most Americans are not so stupid as to think one is necessarily good because one is wealthy. [/]

Quote:

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If God selects some to be poor and others to be rich, God sins because according to His own law He can't show personal favoritism [see James 2:8,9]

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[:"blue"]Does the clay question the potter why it is made into a certain vessel while others into something different? Do you question why some are given 5 talents while most of us have only 1 or 2?

I don't believe that God intends for any believer to be poor. The secrets of prosperity are open to all who want to have more. For many that is just not a priority once they have a home, enough to eat, clothes to wear & a car to drive. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Because of the promises of blessings or curses in Dt 28, 28, it is not difficult to see why the wealthy Jews would think that they were therefore the favorites of heaven because they were rich.

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That was the issue with the rich young man.

Quote:

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Does the clay question the potter why it is made into a certain vessel while others into something different? Do you question why some are given 5 talents while most of us have only 1 or 2?

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Are you telling me I was predestined to be what I am...where's the choice in that?

As to talents...what do you mean?

Quote:

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I don't believe that God intends for any believer to be poor.

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Then why was Jesus poor? I'll tell you: "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly given to the service of others.” [EGW] But let's not get into this, because that's not the point of this post!

Quote:

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The secrets of prosperity are open to all who want to have more.

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What is the secret?

[Robert]

Quote:

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"The Bible does not condemn the rich man because he is rich; it does not declare the acquisition of wealth to be a sin....

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Maybe not, but it does say that "self-seeking" is sin. Last time I checked "wealth" doesn't happen by accident [unless you win the lottery].

Again, there's nothing in the world wrong with education. Without education I wouldn't be able to communicate with you now....In fact my grammar isn't the best, but that's the way it goes.

The problem is "the motive" for learning! That's where "self-seeking" shows its ugly head. And since the law examines our motives, well, we stand guilty!

[John317]

Jesus said this so that the young man would see the truth about his own motives for obeying God and wanting eternal life. He was not so much interested in God's will as in his own will. He was only using God's will in order to gain something for himself. He was self-centered like a lot of us. How easy it is for us to get our attention onto possessions and off of God and His Kingdom. Do we want to serve God no matter what the cost? Can we honestly say that we are any different from that young man? Jim

[archierieus]

Quote:

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Robert said:

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Having had a personal experience similar to what is described in regard to the rich young ruler--that is, having been called by God to make a similar choice, I do have some thoughts about your question.

I do not believe that Jesus intended that the man become homeless. I believe that what Jesus was calling for was to place his all on the altar--to give everything he possessed, to God, trusting that God knew what he needed. I would guess that such a course was essential for the rich young ruler, because he had made an idol of his possessions. Had he broken down that idol, I believe that God would indeed have given back to him what he needed, including a place to live.

Regards, Dave

[Robert]

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I believe that God would indeed have given back to him what he needed, including a place to live.

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That's an assumption....BTW...He didn't do this for His disciples:

Matt 19:27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?”

[Gerr]

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Quote:

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I don't believe that God intends for any believer to be poor.

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Then why was Jesus poor? I'll tell you: "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly given to the service of others.” [EGW] But let's not get into this, because that's not the point of this post!

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[:"blue"]"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 NKJ [/]

Quote:

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Quote:

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The secrets of prosperity are open to all who want to have more.

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What is the secret?

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[:"blue"]See Dt 28,29. Get the book, "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill. You will find that there are definite laws/principles that one has to follow in order to prosper. [/]

Gerry

[archierieus]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Quote:

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He didn't do this for His disciples:

Matt 19:27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Behold,

we have left everything

and followed You; what then will there be for us?”

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Peter still had a house--that was where the man was healed who was let down through the roof. He still had a wife--Paul refers to her in one of his letters. Peter, then, didn't leave his wife, either. Also, I seem to recall that EGW in the book DA, comments on the fact that from time to time the Jesus sent the disciples away to their homes. Of that group, Jesus is the only one recorded as "having no place to lay His head." BTW Peter, James and John also at least had access to their fishing boats and equipment, although others (whether family members, employees or associates) carried forward the business. That was a continuing temptation to Peter, to return to the nets. He did it several times.

In my own case, God called me to walk way from the possesions which I had, but He also led me to a much situation than I had before, including a home. And, although I lost everything a few years ago, God has provided, miraculously, a place to live, a car, and other things which I need.

Regards, Dave

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Peter still had a house--that was where the man was healed who was let down through the roof.

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This is interesting....Please supply the verses!

Quote:

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Also, I seem to recall that EGW in the book DA, comments on the fact that from time to time the Jesus sent the disciples away to their homes.

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Okay...but give me Bible support....

Quote:

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BTW Peter, James and John also at least had access to their fishing boats and equipment, although others (whether family members, employees or associates) carried forward the business. That was a continuing temptation to Peter, to return to the nets. He did it several times.

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Maybe? Support please....

Thanks,

Rob

[Robert]

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"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 NKJ

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Okay...so Christians should be rich? Most are poor, right? Maybe Christ is talking about rich in heaven, as in the rich young ruler: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

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See Dt 28,29. Get the book, "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill. You will find that there are definite laws/principles that one has to follow in order to prosper.

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Sure...there are principles to follow to ensure better health. Having a roof over one's head sure helps, etc., etc.

The problem with all this is that there's an element of "self-seeking" and that according to the law is sin.

However, if we are not under the law I guess it doesn't become a salvation issue. That doesn't diminish the fact that we should be somewhat less selfish than "the world" [the unbeliever].

Rob