Kim Davis (County Clerk Refuses to Issue Marriage License to Gay Couple)

[Jessie-Jess]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us/same-sex-marriage-kentucky-kim-davis.html?_r=0

Please pray for this woman, who has chosen to obey God rather than man (Acts 5:29). Why should she be fined or sent to prison for following the Bible and her convictions? Our country is no longer free! Religious liberty, what is that? Oh, please pray for her, that she will stand firm, and that the Lord will also reveal more of His truth and laws to her, and that she will grasp hold of and stand firm for those, too, and that she will be motivated by His love. Please pray for our country, for our religious liberty, which we are losing. Why should she be fined or sent to prison? Wouldn't it be more reasonable for the government/her employers to ask her to resign from her position, so that she isn't in a position to have to make these decisions? 

Should we create a petition for her? What do you think? 

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/

“There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must take it because conscience tells him it is right.” - Martin Luther King Jr. 

 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Jessie-Jess

[Gregory Matthews]

I should not ask to be hired as a bartender, if I refuse, for religious reasons, to sell alcoholic drinks.

She is working in a government job where she is required to issue marriage licenses to every person who meets the legal requirement.   If she cannot do that.  She should resign.  If she does not resign and she continues to refuse to issue such licenses, she should be willing to suffer the consequences.

 

I remind you that in the past some such clerks had religious objections to issuing marriage licenses to bi-racial couples.

Individual civil rights of persons in the United States do not depend upon the religious beliefs of a government official.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jessie-Jess]

Perhaps she should have resigned, but God knows her reasons for not doing so. What if she were to decided to resign now? Would she escape the penalties? We should at least pray for her.  Remember, they could come after us, too, and some day they will be coming after Sabbath keepers. Right now it's Kim Davis for refusing to issue a marriage license to two men. Some day, it may be us refusing to worship in a church on Sunday or to enter into employment on the Sabbath. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Jessie-Jess

[Jessie-Jess]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

-Martin Niemöller

[bonnie]

I should not ask to be hired as a bartender, if I refuse, for religious reasons, to sell alcoholic drinks.

 

Maybe it should be settled the way it was settled for Muslims that refused to handle pork in grocery stores. At the time of hire they were well aware there were products their religion forbid the handling of certain products. Solution was simple after the threat of lawsuits by the Muslim employee's. When confronted with something they felt they were forbidden to do,call another employee. 

This woman probably did not realize that the day would come that she would be required to provide this service for same sex couples. Little doubt she will lose at the minimum her job,wonder what the outcome would be if she were Muslim

[Jessie-Jess]

Muslims' beliefs are not in harmony with this new legislation either, are they? I wonder, too...especially with this apparent crusade against Islam... 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Jessie-Jess

[bonnie]

While there may be a "crusade" of sorts against ISIS. Muslims and their religious objections are treated very carefully

[Jessie-Jess]

I do want ISIS to be stopped, and I pray that God will stop them (and, believe it or not, I have seen at least one answer to that prayer not long after I first remember praying that prayer, when they were discovered in Australia before they could carry out their gruesome, cruel, disgusting, evil plot),  but have you read what the pope said about them being the anti-Christ? I see history repeating itself. Have you watched The Radicals? 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Jessie-Jess

[bonnie]

I am referring to the Muslims in the US.

Those that want their religious beliefs to be given special consideration. We had a Muslim college student threaten to shoot a service dog in his class. He joined the class after the service dog and his handicapped owner were already students. The college,instead of taking control of the unreasonable Muslim student,bent over backwards to accommodate him. The handicapped student,fearing for his dog quit.

We have businesses locally that have had their share of problems with Muslim refusing to obey the rules of employment and threaten lawsuit if faced with termination.

Really same as the woman in the article you posted. However she will not get by with it.

I have wondered if a Muslim baker were asked to bake a cake for a gay wedding and refused,what would happen. If a black baker was asked to bake a cake honoring the KKK. I can't see how she can remain in her position but am curious what accommodation would be made for a Muslim employee

[CoAspen]

Why do people want to have freedom of religion, except when it doesn't correspond with their own?

Why do people complain about their work requirements after they are hired?

Why do people want freedom of speech for themselves, but not others?

Why do people want freedom of belief for themselves, but not others?

If someone doesn't like the requirements of their job, they are not prevented from seeking different employment. But, on the issue of gay issues, people just want to complain and make it a religious issue. I doubt it is religiously motivated, but rather just plain everyday prejudice.

Time to stop hiding our biases/prejudices behind religion. Gives organized religion a very bad name. Opps, I forgot......official religion is not the same as believing in Christ. But since official religions all claim to be followers of Christ......hmmmmm. Christ came once to to show the true image of God.....did He fail? 

[bonnie]

 

If someone doesn't like the requirements of their job, they are not prevented from seeking different employment. But, on the issue of gay issues, people just want to complain and make it a religious issue. I doubt it is religiously motivated, but rather just plain everyday prejudice.

Time to stop hiding our biases/prejudices behind religion. Gives organized religion a very bad name. Opps, I forgot......official religion is not the same as believing in Christ. But since official religions all claim to be followers of Christ......hmmmmm. Christ came once to to show the true image of God.....did He fail? 

And how do you or anyone else know if it is a religious conviction? Have some of you been given charge over the conscience of another?

Whether you agree with gay marriage or not how have you come by the knowledge that those that believe gay marriage and what they see as their participation  to be wrong is in fact biases/prejudices behind religion? 

You seem to been elevated to an exalted position

I have a hard time believing people that have lost everything they have worked and sacrificed for are doing so because of prejudice

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2015 by bonnie

[Jessie-Jess]

By the way, what I meant about The Radicals, it's about the Anabaptist movement and the persecution of the Anabaptist, one reason being their view on killing, and their refusal to raise up arms against the turks.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Jessie-Jess

[Jessie-Jess]

Have you all read the article? She could be facing more than just termination of her employment for standing up to her convictions. She could be facing a fine and jail time. I'm saying it would be more reasonable of the government to just terminate her employment. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Some of us here may have been given the task of determining whether  or not a stated belief was a "sincere religious belief."    I have. and my decision went a long way in deciding whether or not to prosecute and/or discharge with an honorable discharge and/or to grant the request.   Military chaplains, under the law, are required to determine the sincerity of a stated request for religious accommodation.  I have done it many times and I have been recognized by a 2-star in the Pentagon for the quality of my work.

There is little doubt in my mind that the woman involved is sincere in her belief.  The ultimate question is:  Should she be  retained in her government position  when her specific beliefs do not allow her to carry out the duties that she has sworn to perform?

 

This situation is much different, from the legal standpoint, than that of a clerk in a grocery store who does not wish to sell alcoholic beverages.

 

Bonnie said:

 

And how do you or anyone else know if it is a religious conviction? Have some of you been given charge over the conscience of another?

[Gregory Matthews]

Jessie:  She could have resigned and not be in the situation that she is in today. 

She is in trouble due to the fact that she has refused to carry out the directive of a Judge who issued an order in her case.

She has chosen to refuse to issue marriage licenses for any couple.  That refusal to carryout her governmental duties  mans that she should be fired and her failure to resign with consequent violation of the Judges order mans that she may suffer some very real consequences.

 

 

 

 

 

[bonnie]

 

 

This situation is much different, from the legal standpoint, than that of a clerk in a grocery store who does not wish to sell alcoholic beverages.

 

Bonnie said:

 

 

How is it any different if I take a job at a grocery store and after the fact decide ,OOPs,you sell beer,pork etc,I can't do that. You terminate me and I will sue you and demand special consideration?

This woman will undoubtedly be fired. Maybe the penalty will me more. I believe she should have simply quit as did several others. It is odd they didn't simply fire her.

 

[bonnie]

When you commit to a job knowing in advance you cannot fulfill all the requirements according to your religious convictions and then refuse after the fact it is dishonest. I doubt if this woman anticipated her job would someday be required to provide license for same sex marriage.Regardless,working for a government office she really doesn't have other options

[Gregory Matthews]

Bonnie, the difference is this:  The woman was (is) an agent of the government.  A clerk in a grocery store is not an agent of the government.  In her government job, the woman was required to provided a set of government services in accord with the law.  Those services that she was required to provide were established in law.  She was not allowed to pick and chose what service she would provide.  She was required under the law to provide all of them.  The owner of a grocery store is not required to sell bread.  That owner can pick and chose what is sold in the grocery store.

One of the services that she was required to provide was that of issuing a marriage license.  At the present time, she has refused to issue marriage licenses to anyone.  At the time she ccepted the job, she knw that the law established the requirements for  a marriage license, and she knew that she would have to abide by those requirements.  she also know that the requirements could be changed at any time.

So, when the requirements were changed, she should have resigned.  She has not been forced to remain in office.

      

[bonnie]

I understand that. Just so I understand the rest of what you said.So I accept a position at our local grocery store knowing in advance part of my job will be handling pork cigarettes alcohol and my religion forbids I touch those items it is okay after I have the position to refuse and threaten to sue if I am terminated. As long as it is only a grocery store? Locally that has happened more than once

[CoAspen]

I am confused, well, not really....but...why do people feel they have the right to bite the hand that feeds them? If the employer makes a change in the business, what right is given to the employee to refuse to follow those changes and cry foul?

Ah, they do have a right and they are free to make it with out coercion. One resigns. Standard business practice.

[CoAspen]

Please pray for our country, for our religious liberty, which we are losing.

This not a religious liberty issue in the way it is being put forth. It is the clerk that is trying to force her employer to go by her religious belief. That is where we would be losing our liberties, when someone can force another person to act in a way they think is 'right'. She is not being forced, she has a choice, follow the requirements of her position or resign.

I fear for our liberties all right.....from situations just like this and others attempting to do the same over gay issues.

[GayatfootofCross]

[Aliensanctuary]

Maybe the woman could have asked to be transferred to a job with different duties. While we may or may not respect her for standing up against her employer, the government, for her beliefs, rather than create undue controversy or animosity, Jesus Christ, at times, would move on to another place to avoid unnecessary conflict. She might be willing to serve gays in other areas, just not to be a part of issuing "marriage" licenses.

In Kenya, where Mr. Obama encouraged its president to respect gay rights, it is a criminal offence to be a homosexual, if I got that news report straight. If she moved to Kenya, she might find work there.

[Gregory Matthews]

Bonnie, there is not one answer to your  question below that fits every situation.  Later today I will enter a store that sells, TVs, shoes and other items to include alcoholic beverages, which I do not purchase.  Sometimes there will be a sign placed at a check-out line that states that alcoholic beverages cannot be purchased in that line, at that time and if such is desired, another checkout line must be used.   NOTE:  That store does not sell tobacco products and it is not a grocery store.

I will also, probably enter a grocery store today which does not sell either tobacco products or alcoholic beverages.   However, in the wall of the grocery store is a very large window which looks into a separate store that sells only alcoholic beverages.  In order to enter that store one must leave the grocery store and enter the store that sells the alcoholic beverages by another door.  Both the grocery store and the store that sells the alcoholic beverages are owned by the same corporation. 

 Local laws, Federal laws and much more may govern the answer to your question.  There is no one answer that fits every situation.

 

Bonnie said:

I understand that. Just so I understand the rest of what you said.  So I accept a position at our local grocery store knowing in advance part of my job will be handling pork cigarettes alcohol and my religion forbids I touch those items it is okay after I have the position to refuse and threaten to sue if I am terminated. As long as it is only a grocery store? Locally that has happened more than once.

[whbae]

I think she is a hypocrite!  Pick and choose.  Did God say one may marry FOUR times? She has!