Reconciled to God

[JoeMo]

Samie,

All the verses you use as proof texts are Paul speaking to disciples (i.e., churches already established).  Of course believers are reconciled.  It is  believers that Paul is addressing in the 3 scripture references you repeated several times above.  IMHO, I don't  believe that those reconciliation messages are for all people - just believers.

[pnattmbtc]

Consider the text.  It says:

"who were once alienated and enemies in your mind"

When was this?  This was before the person being addressed repented. 

When? It was BEFORE Christ died. The Colossian believers were NOT yet believers when Christ died. HIS death reconciled them, and us, to God. So Scriptures say.

What Paul is saying is that before we were converted, we were alientated and enemies in our mind, which means separated from God, estanged from God, at odds with God, not at peace with God; in short, not reconciled.  Then we were converted, after which point we were no longer enemies of God, but friends with God, which is to say, reconciled.

It cannot be the case that we were enemies in our mind before we existed becase we had no mind in which to be an emeny.  To be an enemy in our mind means we must exist and think, so these things that happened, involving formerly being an enemy in our mind, but now no longer, entail our existing and thinking.

I see the issue here, which is that you are reading the phrase "by His death" as if there were something about the death of Christ which could reconcile us by itself, without our participation.  But this is not the only way to read this phrase.  Let's see if I can come up with an example.

Let's say my grandfather passed away and left an inheritance for my mother, and he passed away before I was born.  I need money for something, say college, and I say something like, "I went to college by the death of my grandfather".  What does this mean?  It means that as a result of the death of my grandfather, it became possible for me to go to college, because the money which he left for my Mom, she gave to me tu use for school.  So even though I write, "I went to college by the death of my grandfather", this does not mean this happened at the time of my grandfather's death, before I existed.  Indeed, it would be bizare to read this sentence in this way, since I cannot go to school without existing.

Similarly, it is perfectly legitimate, gramatically, to read the sentence that we were reconciled by the death of His Son in the same way as my sentence that I can go to school by the death of my grandfather.  As by the death of my grandfather something happened by which it became possible for me to go to school, by the death of Christ, something happened which made it possible for me to be reconciled.  But the sentence structure no more requires I be reconciled at the time Christ died than that I went to school at the time by grandfather died.  And just as reading the sentence, "I went to college by the death of my grandfather," as meaning that this happened before I existed, so too, reading that were reconciled by the death of Christ as happening before we existed is a bizarre reading, since we can no more be reconciled without existing than we can go to school without existing.

 

[pnattmbtc]

Me: What brought about his reconciliation?  The death of Christ!  How did it do that?  By leading him to change his mind, to repent; to decide, in his mind, to longer be alienated from God, but to be at peace with God instead.

Samie: Then, we all were led to change our minds!  NOT just the believers. If not all, why would Christ's death led some and others not?

Not sure what you're trying to say here.  Only believers change their minds.  That's why they are believers, because they change their minds and believe, and so are reconciled.  Unfortunately not all repent (change their minds).

     On 9/8/2015, 6:57:13, pnattmbtc said:
When does a person have peace with God?

Being at peace with God, meaning no long at enmity, or being reconciled, happens when one believes (as this verse states).

Samie: Does the verse really say we were reconciled when one believes?

It says that being at peace with God happens when one believes (which is what I wrote).  To be reconciled means to be restored to friendly relations, which is what being at peace is.  Not being at peace is being at enmity, which was our condition before we believed (alienated and enemies in our own mind).

Colossians 1:21-22   21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  22in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

I don't read reconciled when one believes, rather, He has reconciled us through His death.

That's the means; through Christ's death we believe and are reconciled.  His death is the means by which we believe.

On 9/8/2015, 6:57:13, pnattmbtc said:
Reconciliation, by virtue of the meaning of the word, cannot happen without repentance. 

That's your opinion. And I respect that.

Not my option.  What the dictionary says: reconcile -> restore friendly relations between.

Reconciliation, by virtue of what Scriptures EXPLICITLY say, happened when God reconciled us to Himself by the death of His Son.

You are assuming that because Christ's death is the means by which we are reconciled that we must have been reconciled when Christ died, but that's not what the text is saying.  Besides contradicting what the word "reconile" means, there's also the problem that reading the text this way means that no one before the death of Christ (e.g. Abraham, Paul's example of justification by faith) was reconciled.

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
 
NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation
 
NKJ Colossians 1:21-22   21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  22in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

I think, it is a better decision to stay put with what Scriptures say rather than exchange it for the opinion of others.

I agree, which is why I'm not substituting what the Scriptures say for your opinion

[Just*]

 

Reconciliation involves two parties. 

Does the second Adam touch as many as did the first Adam? And the answer is that it is certainly true that what the second Adam did embraces all that were embraced in what the first Adam did. What he should have done, what he could have done, would embrace all.

Without our consent at all, without our having anything to do with it, we were all included in the first Adam; we were there. All the human race were in the first Adam. What that first Adam--what that first man, did meant us; it involved us. That which the first Adam did brought us into sin, and the end of sin is death, and that touches every one of us and involves every one of us.

 So then as the first Adam was We, the second Adam is We.

The first Adam brought man under the condemnation of sin, even unto death; the second Adam's righteousness undoes that and makes every man live again.

[8thdaypriest]

 

Does the second Adam touch as many as did the first Adam? And the answer is that it is certainly true that what the second Adam did embraces all that were embraced in what the first Adam did. What he should have done, what he could have done, would embrace all.

Without our consent at all, without our having anything to do with it, we were all included in the first Adam; we were there. All the human race were in the first Adam. What that first Adam--what that first man, did meant us; it involved us. That which the first Adam did brought us into sin, and the end of sin is death, and that touches every one of us and involves every one of us.

 So then as the first Adam was We, the second Adam is We.

The first Adam brought man under the condemnation of sin, even unto death; the second Adam's righteousness undoes that and makes every man live again.

 

Even if the "first Adam" had NEVER sinned, that would not guarantee every one of his descendants would remain "sin free".  Every descendant was born with "free will" and COULD have "sinned" at any time.  If the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" remained in the Garden of Eden, and the Garden remained on the earth, would not Adam's descendants have access to THAT Tree?   

OR   Had Adam passed "the test", would "the Serpent" have been banished from earth - forever. 

And would that guarantee eternal sinlessness?

Personally, I believe it is our shared experience of the PAIN that sin has brought, along with our KNOWLEDGE of the amazing love of God, that will guarantee our eternal loyalty to God, and our love for God's own. 

[pnattmbtc]

 

Does the second Adam touch as many as did the first Adam? And the answer is that it is certainly true that what the second Adam did embraces all that were embraced in what the first Adam did. What he should have done, what he could have done, would embrace all.

Without our consent at all, without our having anything to do with it, we were all included in the first Adam; we were there. All the human race were in the first Adam. What that first Adam--what that first man, did meant us; it involved us. That which the first Adam did brought us into sin, and the end of sin is death, and that touches every one of us and involves every one of us.

 So then as the first Adam was We, the second Adam is We.

The first Adam brought man under the condemnation of sin, even unto death; the second Adam's righteousness undoes that and makes every man live again.

 

This sounds like Jones, I think from the 1895 General Conference Bulletin.  I agree with Jones.  Waggoner also has similar statements, particularly in "The Glad Tidings."  I agree with him too, but both Jones an Waggoner are clear on the importance of faith, and neither one speak of reconciliation without faith.

[pnattmbtc]

Even if the "first Adam" had NEVER sinned, that would not guarantee every one of his descendants would remain "sin free".  Every descendant was born with "free will" and COULD have "sinned" at any time.  If the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" remained in the Garden of Eden, and the Garden remained on the earth, would not Adam's descendants have access to THAT Tree?   

OR   Had Adam passed "the test", would "the Serpent" have been banished from earth - forever. 

And would that guarantee eternal sinlessness?

Personally, I believe it is our shared experience of the PAIN that sin has brought, along with our KNOWLEDGE of the amazing love of God, that will guarantee our eternal loyalty to God, and our love for God's own. 

The concept of eternal security is an important one.  The mathematical concept of necessary and sufficient and be considered here.  I think we can agree that through the Plan of Salvation, God has instituted a procedure which will guarantee the eternal security of the universe. with the promise that sin will not arise a second time.  However, I believe it is a mistake to assume that God was dependent upon sin in order to accomplish this.  That is, had sin not happened, God may well have been able to accomplish this eternal security by some other means, but we don't know what this might have been, because sin did occur.

So the Plan of Salvation is a sufficient solution to the problem of establishing eternal security, but not necessarily a necessary one (given that sin did not occur).  Boy, that's a difficult sentence to parse!  Here's an easier version:

Given that sin occurred, the Plan of Salvation was necessary to establish eternal security.  However, had sin not occurred, God may have been able to establish eternal security by some other means. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

Given that sin occurred, the Plan of Salvation was necessary to establish eternal security.  However, had sin not occurred, God may have been able to establish eternal security by some other means. 

If there had been "other means" then why didn't God use those "other means" to "establish eternal security" thus preventing this whole extremely painful mess!!!   If God HAD "other means" (before Lucifer sinned) and didn't use them, that would make HIM responsible for everything that has flowed from Lucifer's first sin. 

I don't personally believe that God HAD any "other means". 

[JoeMo]

Given that sin occurred, the Plan of Salvation was necessary to establish eternal security.  However, had sin not occurred, God may have been able to establish eternal security by some other means.

When the Godhead was "planning" creation, I don't believe that there was any scenario in which God gave man a free will that sin would not occur.  That is why the Lamb was "slain from the creation of the world" (Rev. 13:8).  I am still in a quandry how God can guarantee a sin-free universe for ever and ever and ever and still give us a free will.  I'n sure He has it figured out.

[8thdaypriest]

When the Godhead was "planning" creation, I don't believe that there was any scenario in which God gave man a free will that sin would not occur.  That is why the Lamb was "slain from the creation of the world" (Rev. 13:8).  I am still in a quandry how God can guarantee a sin-free universe for ever and ever and ever and still give us a free will.  I'n sure He has it figured out.

I personally believe that those who are finally "redeemed", will have FELT the PAIN that comes with sin.  They will have EXPERIENCED that pain - deeply.  The memory of that PAIN, will guarantee they won't want to "go there" again - EVER.  They will KNOW that God's will is perfect - for them - and any departure from that "will of God" would result in great PAIN (for the whole creation). 

Sort of like the guy who builds a small campfire in a restricted area, and it gets out-of-hand, and destroys half the state.    

Additionally - those finally redeemed, will KNOW how much our God loves us.  What HE was willing to endure - for us. 

Knowing - by experience - these two things, (the love of God, and the perfection of His will) has have brought those redeemed, to a place of perfect TRUST - a TRUST which will last for eternity. 

I have wondered whether Heaven will have a Holocaust Museum.  One could go there, to go back in time, and "see" what earth was like - under Satan's domination.  One might view the crucifixion, to experience the horror of it.  I think one visit would be enough to last an eternity !!!

[JoeMo]

This may show what a sinner I am - I have experienced the pain and consequences of certain sins in my life, only to return to them later like a dog does to his vomit.  Unless I am the exception to the rule, I don't know if experiencing the temporal consequence of sin is enough of a motivation to end sin forever.  OTOH, witnessing the eternal consequences of sin in the spiritual realm twice - once at Armagddon and once agian at the White Throne Judgement - may be enough.  Like I said, I'm sure God has it worked out.

[pnattmbtc]

If there had been "other means" then why didn't God use those "other means" to "establish eternal security" thus preventing this whole extremely painful mess!!!   If God HAD "other means" (before Lucifer sinned) and didn't use them, that would make HIM responsible for everything that has flowed from Lucifer's first sin. 

I don't personally believe that God HAD any "other means". 

 God didn't have time to because Lucifer sinned.  Or, to put it another way, He would have been in the process of doing so, but was interrupted.

Regarding being responsible for everything which flowed from Lucifer's first sin, this is exactly why I don't believe that God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway.

[pnattmbtc]

Given that sin occurred, the Plan of Salvation was necessary to establish eternal security.  However, had sin not occurred, God may have been able to establish eternal security by some other means.

JoeMo: When the Godhead was "planning" creation, I don't believe that there was any scenario in which God gave man a free will that sin would not occur. 

Sure there was.  The scenario where Adam and Eve don't eat the forbidden fruit.  Otherwise you have God creating a "perfect pair" who are destined to fail.  How could that be right?

That is why the Lamb was "slain from the creation of the world" (Rev. 13:8). 

I believe this is a statement as to God's, or the Lamb's, character.

I am still in a quandry how God can guarantee a sin-free universe for ever and ever and ever and still give us a free will.  I'n sure He has it figured out. 

After the fruit of sin has been made clear, it makes sense (to men, at any rate), that God looks forward in time, sees all the scenarios, and in none of them do sin arise. 

[Samie]

Samie,

All the verses you use as proof texts are Paul speaking to disciples (i.e., churches already established).  Of course believers are reconciled.  It is  believers that Paul is addressing in the 3 scripture references you repeated several times above.  IMHO, I don't  believe that those reconciliation messages are for all people - just believers.

If in Romans Paul was addressing only the believers, leading you to say that in Rom 5:10, 11 only the believers are addressed, then, only the believers sinned and justified FREELY in Rom 3:23, 24? Please explain.

Romans 3:23-24   ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  ²⁴ Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

It appears to me, that all - not just the believers, have sinned and all were justified FREELY.

[JoeMo]

It appears to me, that all - not just the believers, have sinned and all were justified FREELY.

I might believe that we all have the opportunity to be justified, but it doesn't happen until we BELIEVE. See John 3:16 ... the part about he who BELIEVETH shall not perish.

But just for fun, let's say you are correct - we are ALL justified, I might consider that theory if you agree that salvation requires two process - justification AND sanctification.

[Samie]

I might believe that we all have the opportunity to be justified, but it doesn't happen until we BELIEVE. See John 3:16 ... the part about he who BELIEVETH shall not perish.

But just for fun, let's say you are correct - we are ALL justified, I might consider that theory if you agree that salvation requires two process - justification AND sanctification.

Salvation is a 3-dimensional entity, that is it comes in 3 Tenses: Past, Present, Future. We have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. All were saved and are being saved, but only overcomers will be saved. 

Sanctification is corporate and is in the past tense (Heb 10:10), as with corporate justification (Rom 5:18); but individual justification is in the present tense because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).  Individual justification is applied each time a person commits sin now: the sin committed is not imputed or counted against him (2 Cor 5:18, 19), that sin having been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13); in fact that sin God remembers NO MORE (Heb 10:17).

And Yes, salvation is fun. It's condemnation that is not.

[pnattmbtc]

Salvation is a 3-dimensional entity, that is it comes in 3 Tenses: Past, Present, Future. We have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. All were saved and are being saved, but only overcomers will be saved. 

Sanctification is corporate and is in the past tense (Heb 10:10), as with corporate justification (Rom 5:18); but individual justification is in the present tense because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).  Individual justification is applied each time a person commits sin now: the sin committed is not imputed or counted against him (2 Cor 5:18, 19), that sin having been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13); in fact that sin God remembers NO MORE (Heb 10:17).

And Yes, salvation is fun. It's condemnation that is not.

Do you understand there is such a thing as justification or sanctification by faith, by which I mean the believer's faith?  For example:

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1 KJV)

To open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light, and from the authority of the Adversary unto God, for their receiving forgiveness of sins, and a lot among those having been sanctified, by faith that is toward me. (Acts 28:18 Young's Literal Translation)

[Samie]

Do you understand there is such a thing as justification or sanctification by faith, by which I mean the believer's faith?

For me, although similar in some respects, justification is quite different from sanctification. Justification is the act of making just one who is not; sanctification is making one holy, set aside for a holy purpose.  Both acts are acts of the Divine for us humans.

Again, our sanctification was consummated at the cross, in the past tense of salvation, along with our corporate justification.

^NIV Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

^NKJ Hebrews 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

^NIV Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

^NKJ Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life

But individual justification occurs in the 2nd dimension each time one commits sin because Jesus was raised for our justification:

^NIV Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

 

^NKJ Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

This continual justification is done by not imputing the sin committed against us, which is the ministry of reconciliation:

^NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18-19   ¹⁸ Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,  ¹⁹ that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I infer from the above verses that we have been reconciled (corporate justification on the cross, first dimension) and God continues to reconcile us to Himself by not counting our trespasses against us (individual justification each time one commits sin, in the second dimension). 

Our faith, which is the faith of the Son of God, is the power that enables us to do His will, to overcome evil with good. Overcoming evil is living a sanctified or holy life.

^NIV 1 Peter 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;

[pnattmbtc]

For me, although similar in some respects, justification is quite different from sanctification. Justification is the act of making just one who is not; sanctification is making one holy, set aside for a holy purpose.  Both acts are acts of the Divine for us humans.

Again, our sanctification was consummated at the cross, in the past tense of salvation, along with our corporate justification.

^NIV Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

^NKJ Hebrews 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

^NIV Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

^NKJ Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life

But individual justification occurs in the 2nd dimension each time one commits sin because Jesus was raised for our justification:

^NIV Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

 

^NKJ Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

This continual justification is done by not imputing the sin committed against us, which is the ministry of reconciliation:

^NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18-19   ¹⁸ Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,  ¹⁹ that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I infer from the above verses that we have been reconciled (corporate justification on the cross, first dimension) and God continues to reconcile us to Himself by not counting our trespasses against us (individual justification each time one commits sin, in the second dimension). 

Our faith, which is the faith of the Son of God, is the power that enables us to do His will, to overcome evil with good. Overcoming evil is living a sanctified or holy life.

^NIV 1 Peter 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;

What do you think corporate justification is?  Why do you think it is necessary?

Regarding individual justification, this would be justification by faith, correct?  Which is the same thing as being converted?  And also, being forgiven? (? is asking if you agree).

I believe these are all tied together, as the parable of the publican and the pharisee demonstrates.  The publican asked for mercy, was forgiven of sin, and Jesus said he walked away justified.  So all these things happened when the publican was individually justified.

Regarding not having one's sin counted against us, this is corporate, not individual, which 1 John 2:2 makes clear (that Jesus is the propitiation for sins, and not ours only, but for the whole world).  God never counts anyone's sin against them, or they would be dead.  God is this way because God is agape.

I wanted to ask you about when Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic.  How was He able to do this? (I'm asking in regards to the shedding of blood).

Edited September 16, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

What do you think corporate justification is?  Why do you think it is necessary?

It brings eternal life for all:  ^NIV Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Regarding individual justification, this would be justification by faith, correct?  Which is the same thing as being converted?  And also, being forgiven? (? is asking if you agree).

Because our Savior was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25), I believe individual justification is spontaneously applied each time one commits sin now by not imputing against him the sin committed (2 Cor 5:18, 19) and thereby considering him righteous & just as if he has not sinned.

Regarding not having one's sin counted against us, this is corporate, not individual, which 1 John 2:2 makes clear (that Jesus is the propitiation for sins, and not ours only, but for the whole world).  God never counts anyone's sin against them, or they would be dead.  God is this way because God is agape.

I wanted to ask you about when Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic.  How was He able to do this? (I'm asking in regards to the shedding of blood).

I believe there is both corporate and individual aspect. 2 Cor 5:18, 19 seem to show this.  Each time we commit sin now, the sin is not counted against us. This way sin cannot have dominion over us (Rom 6:14).

As to Jesus' forgiving of the paralytic, He said He has power on earth to forgive sins. And He exercised that power. But had He not died (shed His Blood) which He said is for forgiveness of sins, then there is no eternal life.

^ESV Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of thecovenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

^KJV John 10:10-11   ¹⁰ . . . I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.  ¹¹ I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

He gave His Life that we might have life. By His stripes we were healed. Isa 53:5; 1 Pet 2:24

 

[pnattmbtc]

As to Jesus' forgiving of the paralytic, He said He has power on earth to forgive sins. And He exercised that power. But had He not died (shed His Blood) which He said is for forgiveness of sins, then there is no eternal life.

Or forgiveness.  That is, by the same logic you are applying in regards to eternal life, there also wouldn't be forgiveness of sins, right?  he had not shed His blood, which He said is for forgiveness of sins, so there couldn't have been any forgiveness of sins.

Also, to clarify, regarding eternal life, are you saying that nobody had eternal life before Jesus died? 

[JoeMo]

Also, to clarify, regarding eternal life, are you saying that nobody had eternal life before Jesus died?

Enoch, Moses, and Elijah certainly had eternal life before Jesus died.

[Samie]

Or forgiveness.  That is, by the same logic you are applying in regards to eternal life, there also wouldn't be forgiveness of sins, right?  he had not shed His blood, which He said is for forgiveness of sins, so there couldn't have been any forgiveness of sins.

Also, to clarify, regarding eternal life, are you saying that nobody had eternal life before Jesus died? 

I think so because I believe it is what Scriptures say:

^NIV Romans 5:18, 21   ¹⁸ Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.  ^{. . .  21} so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Samie]

Enoch, Moses, and Elijah certainly had eternal life before Jesus died.

Had Jesus not died, I believe the 3 mentioned will not live eternally.

[JoeMo]

Like many other spiritual debates, I guess time will tell who has this right, if it even matters.  This debate will never be resolved in my lifetime.