GayatfootofCross Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 48 minutes ago, CoAspen said: Oh, and if you don't like that we have a thread for gay issues....don't read it! By all means avoid it!!! I don't care for SPORTS. and guess what! I don't go to those threads or sites or that newspaper section! # freedom! Tom Wetmore 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 15, 2016 Members Share Posted February 15, 2016 Quote Yes you are correct in that I made a mistake but the differences are not big at all between special or specific. They mean nearly the same thing and the context of what I said applied to either meaning. Sin is sin and must be turned away from. I don't buy for an instant that Gay is repentant at all. In fact he flaunts his sin in front of everyone demanding sympathy. Like th There is a big difference between "special" and "specific" in the context that Gay was using. You don't know if Gay is sinning with homosexual behavior or not. The fact that he says he is gay, does not mean he is participating in sinful behavior. The same could be said for another forum member who is an alcoholic. He no longer drinks....but that doesn't change the fact that he is an alcoholic. But being an alcoholic is not sinful. Whether or not Gay is repentant is between him and God. Not between him and me, him and Stan, or him and you. I realize that many are uncomfortable with the fact that Gay writes about LGBT issues in connection with Christianity. But the fact is, is that it's a very real, very troubling issue in Christendom. To shun or malign someone because of what our perception may be of him is no less a sin than sodomy. I don't feel that forum members are trying to disregard the sanctity of a husband-wife / man-woman relationship. I think we are trying to be supportive of those who find themselves in homosexual or other gender-related issues. And being supportive does not necessarily mean we advocate or promote the sinful behavior. All of us have issues we try to deal with. Some of us have a clearer understanding of our shortcomings in the sight of God. Others of us need help in clarifying....seeking... Tom Wetmore, Gail, GayatfootofCross and 1 other 4 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 1 hour ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: There is a big difference between "special" and "specific" in the context that Gay was using. You don't know if Gay is sinning with homosexual behavior or not. The fact that he says he is gay, does not mean he is participating in sinful behavior. The same could be said for another forum member who is an alcoholic. He no longer drinks....but that doesn't change the fact that he is an alcoholic. But being an alcoholic is not sinful. Whether or not Gay is repentant is between him and God. Not between him and me, him and Stan, or him and you. I realize that many are uncomfortable with the fact that Gay writes about LGBT issues in connection with Christianity. But the fact is, is that it's a very real, very troubling issue in Christendom. To shun or malign someone because of what our perception may be of him is no less a sin than sodomy. I don't feel that forum members are trying to disregard the sanctity of a husband-wife / man-woman relationship. I think we are trying to be supportive of those who find themselves in homosexual or other gender-related issues. And being supportive does not necessarily mean we advocate or promote the sinful behavior. All of us have issues we try to deal with. Some of us have a clearer understanding of our shortcomings in the sight of God. Others of us need help in clarifying....seeking... Pam! Thank you for saying all that. If he or she won't listen to me..maybe he or she will listen to you. ................................................ I rejoiced when i found this ages ago. and wrote it on top of my Old Holy Bible long long ago ..God was talking to me " Trembling souls, who have many objectionable traits of character, are their special charge. Angels are ever present where they are most needed, with those who have the hardest battle with self to fight, and whose surroundings are the most discouraging. And in this ministry Christ's true followers will co-operate " Desire of Ages page 440 and.. Kdogae86.. I tip my hat "May the JOY of the LORD be your Strength" Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 Pastor Redefines 'Church' For Transgender Youth Updated February 22, 20166:11 PM ET Published February 21, 20166:00 AM ET Stina Sieg From Jesse Valles (from right,) Isaac Apodaca, Lamar Kellam and Sydney Harrison get in line for the free Sunday dinners offered at the Rebel and Divine church, a congregation in Phoenix that aims to help at-risk youth, many of whom are homeless and transgender. Stina Sieg/KJZZ Some churches have become inclusive of gays and lesbians, but for transgender people, church can still feel extremely unwelcoming. A congregation in Phoenix is working to change that by focusing on the everyday needs of its members — many of whom are homeless trans youth. It starts with a free dinner every Sunday night with donated homemade and store-bought dishes. "There's no shame. There's no judgment. It's here to help. We're about health and wholeness," says the founding pastor, Jeffrey Dirrim, as he points to countless toilet paper rolls on the table for anyone to take. It was toilet paper week. "And you need toilet paper, we've got toilet paper." The congregation, called Rebel and Divine, has a mission: To reach at-risk youth. It grew out of a Christmas shoe drive years ago and it now serves about 200 attendees a month under the umbrella of the United Church of Christ. The attendees are people in their midteens and mid-20s, gay and lesbian kids, homeless kids, and especially transgender kids — people often unwelcome at other congregations. Katrinna Alexandros says until she started attending, she didn't know she could be friends with Christians. "My whole life, it's just been Christians are the ones who hurt everyone, and here it's not," Alexandros says. She was raised a strict Southern Baptist and a boy in a conservative, religious town in rural Kentucky. At the age of 9, she realized she was trans. Although she never officially told her late mother, she says her mom always knew. But Alexandros felt it was religion that kept her mother from fully embracing who Alexandros was. Now, as a 23-year-old Wiccan, Rebel and Divine is the only church she can imagine herself attending. "There's no other place like it. It is a place that you can be yourself and get help and help others," she says. i Katrinna Alexandros was raised in rural Kentucky as a boy and a strict Southern Baptist. Now, as a trans woman and a Wiccan, she says she can't imagine feeling comfortable in a church other than Rebel and Divine. Stina Sieg /KJZZ There may not be readings from the Bible or the mention of the name Jesus, but there is a reliable, consistent togetherness. Sydney Harrison doesn't identify as male or female, and uses the pronoun "they." Harrison says Rebel and Divine gives them something in their lives they can always count on. Harrison comes here both for basic supplies like toothpaste and for human connection. "Just coming in and getting hugs from everyone does a big difference for me," Harrison says. The 24-year-old is very connected to their mom, but says many here aren't so lucky. Some of the young people here ran away from home. Others were kicked out. "We're there for each other, and we love each other," Harrison says. "Even as unconventional as we might be or as crazy or as hectic as it might be, we're still family, at the end of the day." Rebel and Divine is a family these young people are choosing and where they support each other. Dirrim hopes they will always feel safe. and a meal — and then Dirrim sent them back out into the world, with a blessing. http://www.npr.org/2016/02/21/467243382/pastor-redefines-church-for-transgender-youth?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160221 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 On 9/19/2015 at 6:19 PM, GayatfootofCross said: the Numbers would be higher if they saw JESUS in church! Good or bad? Is the church a hospital for sinners with the intent of curing the saints of their sins? Or has the church become a convalescent center for the incurably ill? In the shaking (that is upon us) some dramatic changes in the church will be so rapid that they will startle us. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 1 hour ago, hch said: Good or bad? Is the church a hospital for sinners with the intent of curing the saints of their sins? Or has the church become a convalescent center for the incurably ill? In the shaking (that is upon us) some dramatic changes in the church will be so rapid that they will startle us. amen! The people that will emerge ..that will rise to the top - will look upon ALL as God's Beloveds! ( including the QUEERS on both sides) A self Sacrificing love that resembles Jesus will be the delicious fruit! That will usher in His Second Coming! Amen hch Amen #the three angels message/the gospel that changes lives will be seen and draw others in #allure Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 9 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said: amen! The people that will emerge ..that will rise to the top - will look upon ALL as God's Beloveds! ( including the QUEERS on both sides) A self Sacrificing love that resembles Jesus will be the delicious fruit! That will usher in His Second Coming! Amen hch Amen #the three angels message/the gospel that changes lives will be seen and draw others in #allure 5 As Jesus went into Capernaum, a centurion came up to Him, begging Him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant boy is lying at the house paralyzed and [c]distressed with intense pains. 7 And Jesus said to him, I will come and restore him. 8 But the centurion replied to Him, Lord, I am not worthy or fit to have You come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant boy will be cured. 9 For I also am a man subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it. 10 When Jesus heard him, He marveled and said to those who followed Him [who adhered steadfastly to Him, conforming to His example in living and, if need be, in dying also], I tell you truly, I have not found so much faith as this with anyone, even in Israel. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 While the sons and heirs of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. 13 Then to the centurion Jesus said, Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed. And the servant boy was restored to health at that very moment....Matthew 8 An overriding principle that preceded Jesus' willingness to give what was asked for, was the centurions humility re: his lack of capacity, as well as his love for his child. God is Love!~Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 28, 2016 Moderators Share Posted February 28, 2016 Several; previous posts, have mentioned celibate gay Christians: 1) Heterosexual people are heterosexual, period. Some may be celibate and some may not be. But, their heterosexuality is not defined by whether or not they are celibate. 2) Homosexual people are homosexual, period. Some may be celibate and some may not be. But their homosexuality is not defined by whether or not they are celibate. Gail and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 13 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said: A self Sacrificing love that resembles Jesus will be the delicious fruit! lest it be forgotten Jesus did tell the woman at the well that the man she had was not her husband. And He told another woman caught in adultery--go and sin no more. Jesus is quite aware of God's standards. He reproved sin with tears in His voice. But that did not clear the guilty. It is up to us to learn God's will and do it. On the other hand: presumption is to do our own will and expect that God will let it slide (He won't). Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 3 hours ago, hch said: lest it be forgotten Jesus did tell the woman at the well that the man she had was not her husband. And He told another woman caught in adultery--go and sin no more. Jesus is quite aware of God's standards. He reproved sin with tears in His voice. But that did not clear the guilty. It is up to us to learn God's will and do it. On the other hand: presumption is to do our own will and expect that God will let it slide (He won't). yes to all the Stories love Jesus dealings with us Sinners Jesus looked at the women caught in adultery with non condemnation and pronounced it and it is with that understanding and spiritual gift she can get up and sin no more And the Woman at the well saw that very spirit even while reading her life story Gave her a New Life in that moment enough to testify! amen! What would it be like if our church approached the WONDERFUL QUEERS with that Spirit of Christ? Jesus answered them, "This is God's work: to believe in the one whom he has sent." John 6 :29 hch ..may the Joy of the LORD be your Strength Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 5 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said: Jesus looked at the women caught in adultery with non condemnation and pronounced it and it is with that understanding and spiritual gift she can get up and sin no more Jesus did not condemn the woman, not because her sin was not grievous but because she was a pon in a plot to entrap Him. people that knew that this sin was a sin unto death planned that this woman would be killed because they tempted her to do that which they knew was wrong Jesus condemned her sin when He said go and sin no more. Thus Jesus empowered her to have the victory over the sin! There is no provision in the of plan of salvation to pardon those who chose to cling to sin. Salvation is only available to those who come to Jesus recognizing their sin and resolving to have victory over it: Rev 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Repeatedly Revelation promises rewards to the OVERCOMER not to the one that is overcome by sin. phkrause 1 Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 5 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said: What would it be like if our church approached the WONDERFUL QUEERS with that Spirit of Christ? What would the "queers" be like if they headed Christ's words: go and sin no more? Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 2 hours ago, hch said: What would the "queers" be like if they headed Christ's words: go and sin no more? As Ive said.. The non condemnation comes first. not the other way around It is God's Goodness that leads us to repentance. And many Gays Stories bear witness to that in this thread. The Church has a calling to share this wonderful Gospel. Hopefully many more Gays will see Jesus be lifted up and be drawn to HIM. Jesus is is the most beautiful Being in all the Universes! oh just catching a glimpse changes everything !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He has been so good to me. .................. hch do u believe Jesus greets you with non condemnation at every turn? Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 28, 2016 Moderators Share Posted February 28, 2016 The answer to your question is available to you, if you want to see it. It lies in the "queers" who have heeded the call of Christ and are sinning no more in the manner that you think. What would the "queers" be like if they headed Christ's words: go and sin no more? GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said: The answer to your question is available to you, if you want to see it. It lies in the "queers" who have heeded the call of Christ and are sinning no more in the manner that you think. Quote What would the "queers" be like if they headed Christ's words: go and sin no more? The Bible talks about people having ears and hearing not or having itching ears and even being deaf. The deaf are the lucky ones. They are not responsible for what they cannot hear. It is those who stop their ears or yield to their itchy ears that are going to be in the most danger. I know more about the down side of a gay lifestyle than most: Before I retired my boss asked me if I would care for a young man dying of HIV aides The girls on the team felt uncomfortable going to his house. He stayed with the owner of an escort service and the guys there had been known to hang out in drag So I made my routine visits. Managed his meds. Kept him comfortable. Became a friend. And watched him go from a strapping young man to a walking skeleton. We talked, we laughed, he died (and so young). And now that medication can keep infected folks going (like they were not even sick), some folks think that there is a disconnect between the lifestyle (sin) and the consequences (wages). The wages of sin is not limited to sexual sins. God does not give a 10% discount on His ten Commandments. I've heard Danny talk about folks that try to take a 10% discount by switching Sabbath for another day. Then I was amazed to see him overcome with jealousy and divorce his wife without reconciling. I was amazed that he could fault folks for taking a 10% discount on the Sabbath Commandment and then take a discount on the seventh Commandment. Our perception is not always in focus when our pet sin is the one under discussion. Truly Laodiceans need eye salve (Holy Spirit discernment) And gumption, to hold fast to the truth come what may. I've preached to the "quior" long enough. The Holy Spirit will seal His folks And the beast will seal his folks (notice that the beast in Rev 17/18 is in trouble because of her fornications. Pope Benedict resigned in part because of the fornications: male priests copulating with boys And it was not the church that put forth the loud cry: it was the MEDIA that announced the fall of Babylon! And the Apostate Protestant churches that cling to the beast cling to her fornications The June after Pope Benedict retired, Protestant America's Supreme Court made gay marriage the law of the land which in turn led to the jailing of a Christian woman who objected to changing the law of the land after she had accepted a position with the understanding that she would uphold the law of the land. No problem when the laws of the land agreed with God's laws, Big problem when the laws of the land were changed so much that they trampled God's laws in the dust But if folks will not hear that which they will not to hear, will they hear the word of God? Will the word of God not get explained away?! Those who have their stakes set fast will not be moved. So there is no need for me to cast any more pearls along this pathway And God's people said AMEN! LifeHiscost 1 Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted February 29, 2016 Author Share Posted February 29, 2016 19 hours ago, hch said: 19 hours ago, hch said: And God's people said AMEN! A bit of your Testimony of being Jesus to the young man who died of AIDES warms my heart I was there and it was all around me and the dearest people were dying young and fast and much of the Church seemed like it was "good riddance " siting Romans 1:27 the condemnation never stopped by too many with a warped view of GOD On 2/28/2016 at 7:01 AM, GayatfootofCross said: .................. hch do u believe Jesus greets you with non condemnation at every turn? When you go into your prayer closet and thru out the day..among all the tears and disappointments of yourself/others and lifting up and blessing others before HIM and Worship of HIM ..In Thanksgiving and Praise.... imagine GOD Himself delighting in you as you are and where you stand. Understanding Wherever you go HE is there with you Whatever you are doing whatever you are thinking (good.bad.indifferent) .. HE Is In your face with NonCondemnation. God's thoughts of you are so precious as many as the sands of the sea(Psalms 139). There is no where you can go without HIM..HE by your side Even in your complete darkness He is there! No matter how far you run (into self pity or addiction or self loathing or loathing of others) He is not going to leave you.. HIS right Hand holds you!!! He sings and dances over you regardless of who u r or what you have done..Cause that is How HE IS..That's what LOVE Does! To get this ..gets everything the Spirit has promised you. It is your jumping off point every morning and thru the Day! It is what draws others to you .. and to HIM and that Brings even more JOY. More of this draws you to HIM in abounding Joy. And being around others who are so JESUS Center also spurs you on even more so in your Healing and Growth..One of the great Reasons to FELLOWSHIP! It is irresistible! If I (JESUS) be lifted up .. I will draw all! This truest pic of GOD ^ right here ..many Normatives and Non Normatives are finding have u seen this in your life? You didn't answer a chance to testify as a Christian We have a very different picture of GOD Going by your posts here ... Yours is wrong Heterosexuality is not sainhood Purity of heart is hch still i say responding to you in finality May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 When we see the stripes of the blessed one, that were and are a direct result of what we have been and what we continue in, we have much cause for weeping and will not make light of our past and/or present. We can rejoice at this promise. …23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wound you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls....1 Peter 2 …29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.…Romans 11 No one of us has privilege to look down on others for their indiscretions. 1So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deedsa and placing our faith in God. 2You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding. 4For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame....Hebrews 6 God is Love!~Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 On 2/29/2016 at 10:20 AM, GayatfootofCross said: hch do u believe Jesus greets you with non condemnation at every turn? What I believe won't save anybody, except me. On judgment morn, God will not ask anybody "Did you believe what His child henry believed?" God might ask, "I put what you needed in My word, why did you not live like you believed Me?" Those who were deaf to the word of God will be dumb in His presence. With this I will let it rest for a while. RIP Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 Who Are the Gay Evangelicals? Contributing Op-Ed Writer Eleni Kalorkoti February 27, 2016 Molly Worthen THE anti-gay ideology that has long held sway in American evangelicalism seems to be crumbling. Conservatives’ insistence that the Bible proscribes homosexual acts and their claim that protecting gay rights infringes on their own religious liberty have depended on another assumption not found in Scripture: that homosexuality is not a biologically rooted identity but a sinful temptation, an addiction that one must control. The noisy backlash against the Supreme Court’s legalization of gay marriage cannot mask the signs that this assumption is losing its grip. The most conspicuous indication that something is changing came in 2013 while Obergefell v. Hodges was still working its way up to the court. Alan Chambers, the president of the “ex-gay” ministry Exodus International, apologized to L.G.B.T. people for causing them “pain and hurt” and shut down his organization. Exodus’s collapse was a media spectacle. It was a huge blow to those who insist that same-sex attraction can be “cured,” and an encouragement to the growing number of evangelicals, particularly millennials, who support L.G.B.T. rights. But some young Christians resist the notion that embracing queer sexuality as an identity — not a disease — permits them to embrace homosexual relationships. These dissenters proudly call themselves gay or queer or bisexual. But they have turned to ideologies outside the conventional boundaries of evangelicalism — including Catholic theology and queer theory — to argue against both conservatives and liberals. They insist that the church should welcome gay people, yet still condemn homosexual acts. They have provoked a dispute that gets to the heart of the culture wars: a debate over the meaning of vocation that reveals the tension between modern assumptions about living a full life and older ideas about the sacrifices God’s calling requires. Lanira Postell, who attends an evangelical church in Georgia, had relationships with women for years before God “transformed not only my sexuality but my life,” she told me. I expected her to launch into a testimony of her “conversion” from same-sex attraction, but that’s not what happened. “The biggest hurdle I had to jump over was letting go, submitting my full self to the will of God, and in doing that I had to let go of my desire to be straight,” she said. Surrendering to God meant rejecting a black and white binary of sexual identity. “I’m still mentally, emotionally and spiritually attracted to women,” she said, and calls herself “bisexual with celibate same-sex attraction.” Evangelicals — particularly millennials like Ms. Postell, who is 26 — have absorbed secular thinkers’ ideas about the fluidity of sexual expression. This is, in part, a counterintuitive legacy of traditional ex-gay ministries. When groups like Exodus promised that sexual desire could change, they pioneered queer theory in the evangelical world. Participants often acknowledged their struggles with “relapse,” and their testimonies “point to the instability and changeability of their own identities rather than serve as a testament to heterosexuality,” the ethnographer Tanya Erzen wrote in her study of ex-gay ministries, “Straight to Jesus.” Despite coming to terms with her bisexuality, Ms. Postell hopes for heterosexual marriage one day. But for other queer Christians, God demands a life of celibacy. In an era when the right worships the nuclear family and the left celebrates sexual authenticity and gay marriage, celibate gay Christians have no comfortable home on either side of the political spectrum. “There’s little space for them even in Christian queer communities,” said John Bagley, a board member of OneWheaton, a network of L.G.B.T. alumni and allies of Wheaton College, a conservative evangelical school. “Their decision stands as an affront to the decision a lot of people have made.” Many celibate gay evangelicals look outside the Protestant tradition and reach into ancient history for help in thinking about loneliness and desire. Wesley Hill, an assistant professor of biblical studies at Trinity School for Ministry in Pennsylvania and a celibate gay Christian, told me he draws inspiration from Catholic thinkers like the Dutch priest Henri Nouwen, who was attracted to men. Dr. Hill left his childhood denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, for the Anglican Communion, which emphasizes its Catholic past and has a monastic tradition. In his most recent book, “Spiritual Friendship,” he followed in the footsteps of historians like John Boswell, who argued that the medieval church was a surprisingly hospitable place for gay Christians. Dr. Hill has called on evangelicals to resurrect the ancient Christian tradition of honoring some same-sex friendships as a holy covenant. Conservatives have reacted with skepticism. “They think it would be a way of smuggling in same-sex erotic attraction, to find an acceptable way of being gay, having a lover,” he told me. Sarah and Lindsey, a celibate lesbian couple who don’t reveal their last names on their blog “A Queer Calling,” worshiped in Eastern Orthodox churches for several years. They point to the models that non-Protestant church history offers to Christians who don’t fit the hetero-normative mold, like the Beguines, a celibate spiritual movement among Catholic women in medieval Northern Europe. “Words like ‘friend’ and ‘sister’ don’t adequately describe every instance of meaningful relationship between one Beguine woman and another,” they write. Those who seek to persuade evangelical churches to embrace gay celibacy face an uphill battle, and not only because Martin Luther wrote that “to spurn marriage is to act against God’s calling” and “against nature’s urging.” The idealized image of the heterosexual nuclear family has become the chief conservative rallying point of the culture wars. “Part of why I’ve experienced pain is that I grew up in an evangelical church that elevates the family,” Dr. Hill told me. “You’re told your whole life that it’s the summit of happiness.” BUT does liberals’ emphasis on gay marriage effectively send the same message? “If you end up accepting the progressive position, you then have a future: Gay people, you’re supposed to get married, have romance, have children, and that’s how you get security and stave off loneliness,” said Eve Tushnet, a celibate Catholic lesbian writer who has a growing following among evangelicals. “But if you don’t change your sexual ethic, then the challenge to your cultural mind-set is very deep because you’re no longer able to offer gay people the forms of adult love that our culture recognizes.” If the ex-gay ministries ironically introduced evangelicals to more fluid ideas of sexuality, the liberal campaign for gay marriage has reinforced the grip of traditional “family values.” Like other gay celibate Christians I spoke to, Ms. Tushnet uses the language of vocation to explain why she sticks to a path that denies her the sexual fulfillment that most people consider so fundamental. A vocation is not supposed to be easy. “We see in Scripture that God calls people who are uniquely unsuited for the task that he sets them,” she told me. The question of vocation is not an intramural theological debate. It reveals the essential source of the culture wars: a breakdown in the American consensus over whose demands we should live to serve, and what it means for humans to flourish. There is a long history here. The German sociologist Max Weber famously argued that the Puritans laid the groundwork. They reinterpreted the biblical concept of vocation as a calling to fulfill one’s duty in the world, where a successful career would signal God’s favor. “The idea of duty in one’s calling prowls about in our lives like the ghost of dead religious beliefs,” Weber wrote. But today, even Weber’s attenuated idea of vocation is an alien notion in a culture that commands us to “do what you love” and “marry for love,” a culture that celebrates the satisfaction of sexual desire as a good in and of itself. We often conflate passion and pleasure with duty. The gay Christians I interviewed stick to an older idea of vocation: the call to obey a higher will that is not your own, one that may leave earthly desires ungratified. The idea of loving God above all else, embracing one’s identity as a “bride of Christ,” is fundamental to Christianity. It is woven into medieval monks’ erotic commentaries on the Song of Songs and saturates the lyrics of modern megachurch music. It is also wholly unintelligible to most secular people — and probably remains elusive even to many Christians. “The idea of this higher love, or that you could have a loving relationship directly with the Eucharist, is so remote from most Americans’ experience of church that it’s not hard to see why it’s unbelievable,” said Ms. Tushnet, the Catholic writer. “Lots of people go through life without ever feeling that internal contact with God in the St. Teresa Bernini sculpture way.” In an era when gay marriage is legal and a range of gay Christians are modeling different ways to reconcile sexuality and faith, are the decisions of young believers like Lanira Postell still a result of coercion and confused self-hatred? I asked her what she thought about those liberal critics who might think so. “I understand where they’re coming from, that to them what I’m doing doesn’t make any sense,” she said. “That’s why being a Christian is not common. It’s weird. It is unnatural for me to deny myself what I desire, but I do it because of the love of God.” Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributing Op-Ed Writer Eleni Kalorkoti February 27, 2016 Molly Worthen THE anti-gay ideology that has long held sway in American evangelicalism seems to be crumbling. Conservatives’ insistence that the Bible proscribes homosexual acts and their claim that protecting gay rights infringes on their own religious liberty have depended on another assumption not found in Scripture: that homosexuality is not a biologically rooted identity but a sinful temptation, an addiction that one must control. The noisy backlash against the Supreme Court’s legalization of gay marriage cannot mask the signs that this assumption is losing its grip. The most conspicuous indication that something is changing came in 2013 while Obergefell v. Hodges was still working its way up to the court. Alan Chambers, the president of the “ex-gay” ministry Exodus International, apologized to L.G.B.T. people for causing them “pain and hurt” and shut down his organization. Exodus’s collapse was a media spectacle. It was a huge blow to those who insist that same-sex attraction can be “cured,” and an encouragement to the growing number of evangelicals, particularly millennials, who support L.G.B.T. rights. But some young Christians resist the notion that embracing queer sexuality as an identity — not a disease — permits them to embrace homosexual relationships. These dissenters proudly call themselves gay or queer or bisexual. But they have turned to ideologies outside the conventional boundaries of evangelicalism — including Catholic theology and queer theory — to argue against both conservatives and liberals. They insist that the church should welcome gay people, yet still condemn homosexual acts. They have provoked a dispute that gets to the heart of the culture wars: a debate over the meaning of vocation that reveals the tension between modern assumptions about living a full life and older ideas about the sacrifices God’s calling requires. Lanira Postell, who attends an evangelical church in Georgia, had relationships with women for years before God “transformed not only my sexuality but my life,” she told me. I expected her to launch into a testimony of her “conversion” from same-sex attraction, but that’s not what happened. “The biggest hurdle I had to jump over was letting go, submitting my full self to the will of God, and in doing that I had to let go of my desire to be straight,” she said. Surrendering to God meant rejecting a black and white binary of sexual identity. “I’m still mentally, emotionally and spiritually attracted to women,” she said, and calls herself “bisexual with celibate same-sex attraction.” Evangelicals — particularly millennials like Ms. Postell, who is 26 — have absorbed secular thinkers’ ideas about the fluidity of sexual expression. This is, in part, a counterintuitive legacy of traditional ex-gay ministries. When groups like Exodus promised that sexual desire could change, they pioneered queer theory in the evangelical world. Participants often acknowledged their struggles with “relapse,” and their testimonies “point to the instability and changeability of their own identities rather than serve as a testament to heterosexuality,” the ethnographer Tanya Erzen wrote in her study of ex-gay ministries, “Straight to Jesus.” Despite coming to terms with her bisexuality, Ms. Postell hopes for heterosexual marriage one day. But for other queer Christians, God demands a life of celibacy. In an era when the right worships the nuclear family and the left celebrates sexual authenticity and gay marriage, celibate gay Christians have no comfortable home on either side of the political spectrum. “There’s little space for them even in Christian queer communities,” said John Bagley, a board member of OneWheaton, a network of L.G.B.T. alumni and allies of Wheaton College, a conservative evangelical school. “Their decision stands as an affront to the decision a lot of people have made.” Many celibate gay evangelicals look outside the Protestant tradition and reach into ancient history for help in thinking about loneliness and desire. Wesley Hill, an assistant professor of biblical studies at Trinity School for Ministry in Pennsylvania and a celibate gay Christian, told me he draws inspiration from Catholic thinkers like the Dutch priest Henri Nouwen, who was attracted to men. Dr. Hill left his childhood denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, for the Anglican Communion, which emphasizes its Catholic past and has a monastic tradition. In his most recent book, “Spiritual Friendship,” he followed in the footsteps of historians like John Boswell, who argued that the medieval church was a surprisingly hospitable place for gay Christians. Dr. Hill has called on evangelicals to resurrect the ancient Christian tradition of honoring some same-sex friendships as a holy covenant. Conservatives have reacted with skepticism. “They think it would be a way of smuggling in same-sex erotic attraction, to find an acceptable way of being gay, having a lover,” he told me. Sarah and Lindsey, a celibate lesbian couple who don’t reveal their last names on their blog “A Queer Calling,” worshiped in Eastern Orthodox churches for several years. They point to the models that non-Protestant church history offers to Christians who don’t fit the hetero-normative mold, like the Beguines, a celibate spiritual movement among Catholic women in medieval Northern Europe. “Words like ‘friend’ and ‘sister’ don’t adequately describe every instance of meaningful relationship between one Beguine woman and another,” they write. Those who seek to persuade evangelical churches to embrace gay celibacy face an uphill battle, and not only because Martin Luther wrote that “to spurn marriage is to act against God’s calling” and “against nature’s urging.” The idealized image of the heterosexual nuclear family has become the chief conservative rallying point of the culture wars. “Part of why I’ve experienced pain is that I grew up in an evangelical church that elevates the family,” Dr. Hill told me. “You’re told your whole life that it’s the summit of happiness.” BUT does liberals’ emphasis on gay marriage effectively send the same message? “If you end up accepting the progressive position, you then have a future: Gay people, you’re supposed to get married, have romance, have children, and that’s how you get security and stave off loneliness,” said Eve Tushnet, a celibate Catholic lesbian writer who has a growing following among evangelicals. “But if you don’t change your sexual ethic, then the challenge to your cultural mind-set is very deep because you’re no longer able to offer gay people the forms of adult love that our culture recognizes.” If the ex-gay ministries ironically introduced evangelicals to more fluid ideas of sexuality, the liberal campaign for gay marriage has reinforced the grip of traditional “family values.” Like other gay celibate Christians I spoke to, Ms. Tushnet uses the language of vocation to explain why she sticks to a path that denies her the sexual fulfillment that most people consider so fundamental. A vocation is not supposed to be easy. “We see in Scripture that God calls people who are uniquely unsuited for the task that he sets them,” she told me. The question of vocation is not an intramural theological debate. It reveals the essential source of the culture wars: a breakdown in the American consensus over whose demands we should live to serve, and what it means for humans to flourish. There is a long history here. The German sociologist Max Weber famously argued that the Puritans laid the groundwork. They reinterpreted the biblical concept of vocation as a calling to fulfill one’s duty in the world, where a successful career would signal God’s favor. “The idea of duty in one’s calling prowls about in our lives like the ghost of dead religious beliefs,” Weber wrote. But today, even Weber’s attenuated idea of vocation is an alien notion in a culture that commands us to “do what you love” and “marry for love,” a culture that celebrates the satisfaction of sexual desire as a good in and of itself. We often conflate passion and pleasure with duty. The gay Christians I interviewed stick to an older idea of vocation: the call to obey a higher will that is not your own, one that may leave earthly desires ungratified. The idea of loving God above all else, embracing one’s identity as a “bride of Christ,” is fundamental to Christianity. It is woven into medieval monks’ erotic commentaries on the Song of Songs and saturates the lyrics of modern megachurch music. It is also wholly unintelligible to most secular people — and probably remains elusive even to many Christians. “The idea of this higher love, or that you could have a loving relationship directly with the Eucharist, is so remote from most Americans’ experience of church that it’s not hard to see why it’s unbelievable,” said Ms. Tushnet, the Catholic writer. “Lots of people go through life without ever feeling that internal contact with God in the St. Teresa Bernini sculpture way.” In an era when gay marriage is legal and a range of gay Christians are modeling different ways to reconcile sexuality and faith, are the decisions of young believers like Lanira Postell still a result of coercion and confused self-hatred? I asked her what she thought about those liberal critics who might think so. “I understand where they’re coming from, that to them what I’m doing doesn’t make any sense,” she said. “That’s why being a Christian is not common. It’s weird. It is unnatural for me to deny myself what I desire, but I do it because of the love of God.”
GayatfootofCross Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 « Jesus and the Old Testament https://wayneisthinking.wordpress.com/2015/12/13/rethinking-homosexuality-and-same-sex-marriage/ Rethinking Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage December 13, 2015 by wayneisthinking Why Consider The Issue? Christians from a conservative background might well find themselves wondering why there is there a need to consider the issue at all, given the number of scriptures that appear to unconditionally prohibit same sex activity? Yet the fact is that today it is increasingly conservative Christians, those committed to the scriptures, who are re-examining this issue. For example, one of the most recent major works written on this topic is by Dr James Brownson, who is a professor of New Testament at Western Theological Seminary in Michigan. He is so highly respected within the Reformed Churches in America that they gave him its highest title for trusted thinkers and teachers. In 2013 Brownson published the book Bible, Sexuality, Gender: Reframing the Debate on Same Sex Relationships, in which he argues that Christians should reconsider whether or not the biblical strictures against same-sex relations as defined in the ancient world should apply to contemporary, committed same-sex relationships. Amongst conservative Christians who are re-examining this issue, there is no desire to change or “water down” how the Scriptures apply to our lives. Rather, this is driven by a desire to apply the intent that lies behind the biblical commands, as determined by the context in which they were given . In the case of every command in Scripture, what is important is understanding why something has been prohibited, so that we understand what the underlying moral concern is, and therefore how we best act on that concern in our lives. An example of this is Paul’s commands about head coverings, in which an understanding of the culture teaches us that his underlying moral concern was with a wife showing commitment to her husband, and issues of sexual purity. When it comes to same sex relationships, there is a great deal of information that has come to light in recent years. This information concerns the context of the statements in the Old and New Testaments, and sheds a great deal of light on what the underlying concerns were. A common factor that this information points to is that the underlying issues behind the prohibitions against homosexuality had to do with causing dishonour to a man (by treating him as a woman), and the association between homosexuality and temple prostitution and idolatry. Homosexuality as an “orientation”, on the other hand, is simply not addressed by the biblical authors. When the purpose of marriage is examined, the conclusion that many biblical scholars are now coming to is that for those with a same sex orientation, the closest way that they can align themselves with God’s purposes for marriage is to form a committed, faithful, same sex union. Introduction of Marriage in Genesis We now turn to the Old Testament passages that relate to homosexuality. In Genesis, marriage is introduced like this: “The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” (Gen 2:18). This verse introduces a primary need of humanity, which is for long-term, relational intimacy. The issue is so important, that this need being left unmet is considered “not good”. It is following this declaration of need, that the “woman” is created: “Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.” (Gen 2:23-25). In the creation of “woman”, we have a “complementary” pattern created. And what is significant is that this “complementarity” was created for the express purpose of meeting that need for relational intimacy. (This is discussed further later in the paper.) The recognition of the relational intimacy as the primary purpose of the creation of complementarity and sexuality has been important for the church historically. In early times, sexuality itself was despised, and for a time the church mistakenly accepted ideas that the sexual relationship in marriage was solely for the purpose of procreation, and to have sexual intercourse for any other reason was wrong. But more careful reading of texts like this made it plain that the actual central purpose of sexuality was deeper than this; it was the meeting of this primary need (flowing from being created in God’s image) for relational intimacy. In the Genesis account of course, marriage is described as involving a man and a woman. For some, this has been taken as settling the issue as to the exclusive pattern for humanity. However, as it the case with any biblical writing, we need to determine whether it is “prescriptive”, setting a universal pattern, or whether it is “descriptive”, and may be describing a pattern that is the general “norm”, yet not universally binding. To answer this we must look at the primary biblical passages that speak to this issue. The Old Testament Prohibitions The key prohibitions against same sex activity in the Old Testament are Lev 18:22: “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” and Lev 20:13: “If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” From these commands, one immediately apparent question is why is this prohibition only given for men? Why is there no similar prohibition for same sex activity between women? When the pattern of same sex relationships in ancient Israel is examined, it turns out that male to male sex was associated with temple prostitution, with idolatry, and especially, it was associated with aggression. It was seen as something that was highly degrading for a man, to be treated as a woman. These issues come into focus in the only two accounts of same sex activity recorded in the Old Testament, which are the following Gen 19:1-8 and Judges 19:1-25. In the Genesis passage, Lot welcomes what he thinks are male visitors into his house for protection. During the night however, a crowd of men gather outside his house demanding to have sex with his visitors. In order to protect the honour of his male guests, Lot offers to send his own daughters out to the men to be molested. In the passage in Judges, a Levite and his concubine need to spend the night in the town of Gibeah, and are taken in by an elderly man. As in the Genesis account, during the night a crowd of men demand that he release his male guest to them for them to have sex with. The old man refuses, and instead offers his own daughter, and the Levite’s concubine to be abused. These two passages show a number of similarities. Firstly, there is the association of violence that is accompanying the demand for male to male sex. This is gang rape, and the breaking of a most important cultural value of showing hospitality to strangers. Secondly, the passages give insight into the relative valuing of “honour” in that society. In the Old Testament there is a hierarchy of “honour”. A man’s honour was elevated as just about the most important thing in society, but a woman’s honour was far less important, as reflected in the willingness in each of a father to offer even his own daughter in preference to the violation of a male guest. This brings us then back to the nature of the prohibitions in Levititus. The very wording of these prohibitions focus on having sexual relations with a man “as with a woman”. In a patriarchal society in which the male was valued far more than the female, it was a matter of the gravest shame for a male to take the “role of a female” in sexual relations. Brownson writes: “my survey of patriarchy in scripture does suggest that at least some of the biblical prohibitions and negative portrayal of same sex eroticism were clearly linked to assumptions regarding patriarchy: what made such an act wrong, at least in large part in these texts, was that it was regarded as inherently degrading to treat a (higher status) man as if her a (lower status) woman.” (“Bible, Gender, Sexuality”, p83). Pauline Passages In Paul’s letter to the church in Rome, he’s writing to both Jewish and Gentile Christians. But in his opening chapters, he begins by addressing the “Jewish audience”. In chapter one, he is “writing as a Jew, to Jews”, and describing the situation of the Gentile world from a Jewish perspective. Here then, is Paul’s summary of the pattern of idolatry in the gentile world:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” (Rom 1:21-31). Here Paul is giving a scathing evaluation of the moral decay in the Gentile world. But he is doing this, knowing that his Jewish readers will agree with him, and intending to turn this around on them in chapter 2, when he says “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.” So this is the context of the verses about homosexuality in Rom 1. They are part of a “general summary” of the moral condition of the Gentile world. And prominent in that evaluation of the theme of their rejection of God, and embracing of idolatry, which to the Jewish mind has lead them into sexual debauchery, even to the point of leading people to experiment in male to male sex. (As a side note, the reference to “Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.” is unlikely to be referring to lesbianism, but rather to some other kind of “shameful” sexual practices). The practices of male to male sex in the Gentile cities around Israel were characterised by: – forced master/slave relationships – pederasty – male prostitution – temple prostitution These practices were generally “assymetric”. What I mean by that is that it was typically the “dominant male” who would be penetrating the “subservient male”. I.e., the context of the comment about is sexual promiscuity, in a context that is frequently abusive, linked to idolatry, and a kind of “perversion” of sexuality. Now this was all in a form that was regarded as more or less acceptable in the Gentile world (i.e. Rome, Greece etc), but was a “horror” to the Jewish mindset. In short, the entire context of Romans 1 is a world away from the situation of people with a same sex orientation, who wish to enter into a lifelong relationship with a partner. Not only is Paul writing Rom 1 within a very specific cultural and historical situation, but he is also writing with a “polemic” purpose of summarizing the “Jewish perspective of the Gentile world (because it is part of his theme in Romans). I.e. he is not even (in those verses) trying to “give instructions to Christians”. But later, Paul does speak to the issues of homosexuality, e.g. in his letter to the Corinthian church: “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor 6:9-10) The Greek words translated as “those who have sex with men” are actually two words in Greek: “arsenokoitai” and “malokoi”. Arsenokoitai can mean “those who have sex with men”, while malokoi refers to “those who are soft”. This coupling of words is suggestive of the “asymmetric abusive Gentile practices” described above, and show he is thinking of master/slave, or man/child type relationships. So even when Paul does more directly give “instruction”, it is with this context in mind. At no point does Paul address anything that is equivalent of a committed, loving, same sex relationship between people with a basic same sex. Paul’s Intent Given the context of Paul’s writing, the major factors that he is addressing are: – idolatry that has lead people into sexual promiscuity, to the point of turning away from their natural heterosexual orientation into experimenting with homosexuality – abusive relationships in which one person is in “power”, and the relationship is oriented to the fulfilment of that person’s desires – sexual practices that were associated with temple prostitution Conversely, nowhere does Paul describe any kind of committed, loving relationship in his prohibitions. While today there may well be examples of people who do fall into the pattern Paul is describing, i.e. of sexual promiscuity and experimentation leading in time to same sex activity, this does not address the situation of those who from their earliest awareness of sexual have only known same sex attraction, and who want to find a loving, long term relationship. Does Genesis Present a Prescriptive Universal Pattern? With this background, we can now return to the earlier question about whether Genesis presents a prescriptive universal pattern. Much is frequently made of Genesis 2:24 as providing a prescriptive, universal pattern in which marriage must by definition involve a man and a woman, i.e. “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.” This is often regarded as the “foundation” on which any kind of homosexual union, regardless of lifelong monogamy and faithfulness, must be rejected. This passage is picked up by Jesus in Matt 19:4-6, “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” It is an image that is also picked up on by Paul as providing an analogy of Christ and the church (Eph 5:22-32). Based on the New Testament usage of Gen 2:24, it is sometimes regarded as a New Testament endorsement of the concept of marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman. It is the “created order”, a “fixed pattern” that should not be deviated from in any way. This view is highly problematic on several counts. In the case of Gen 2:24, what is most striking is that it appears that Yahweh himself did not regard this as a universal prescriptive pattern, because under the Mosaic Law this pattern is deviated from by allowing polygamy. One man to many wives is a significant deviation from Gen 2:24, yet nowhere in the OT is there a hint of polygamy being condemned because it deviates from this “universal order”. Secondly, there is the arbitrary nature of what is regarded as fixed and binding. If Gen 2:24 represents a “universal pattern”, then how is it that we don’t take from it that marriage is actually mandatory? If that’s God’s design, then why should celibacy even be an option? If Gen 2:24 represents a “universal pattern”, then surely it would be mandatory for the married couple to leave the groom’s parents’ home? Most strikingly, there is simply nowhere in the New Testament where this verse is used to support the exclusion of homosexual relationships. Jesus’ use in Matt 19:4-6 is addressing the issue of divorce, not homosexuality, and the context being described is, naturally enough, dealing with husbands and wives. Then there is the problem associated with the physical ambiguities surrounding gender, such as people being born hermaphrodites. If this is a “universal mandate” a man and woman as a “prescribed pattern”, then it is counter to all reason that God would allow this to be so distorted at a physical level that there are people born without this physical sex distinction. What all of this highlights, is that the claim to a “universally binding pattern” is simply too large a claim to be supported from as simple and descriptive a text as Genesis 2:24. There is simply no further support for this claim in scripture. Not only is it a theme not picked up on, but a theme directly subverted by the allowing of polygamy (which was never explicitly condemned in either Old or New Testament). So what is the alternative then? If Genesis 2:24 is not mandating a universal pattern, then why mention a “man and a woman”? The answer to that, is what would we expect, given something like a 95% preponderance of heterosexuality? In a general description of marriage, why would we expect highly infrequently occurring “outliers” to be mentioned? And in particular, why would we expect anything different in an age in which long term monogamous homosexual unions were unheard of? Genesis 2:24 and its references simply do not provide the claimed foundation for a universally prescribed pattern. They are however, completely consistent with a description of the “general pattern of marriage” that most typically occurs. Is It Safer to Adhere to Male/Female Complementarity? Given the points above about the possible reasons behind the biblical statements against same sex activity, is it still possible “safer” for the church to forbid homosexuality in any context, just to err of the side of caution? This is where we need to return to the purpose of marriage, as introduced in Genesis: “The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” (Gen 2:18). This verse introduces a primary need of humanity, which is for long-term, relational intimacy. The need is so important, that the leaving of this need being unmet is considered “not good”, and hence the woman is created, and marriage instituted. In the creation of “woman”, we have a “complementary” pattern created. And what is significant is that this “complementarity” was created for the express purpose of meeting that need for relational intimacy. Understanding the purpose for the creation of something is of immense importance in understanding the place of that aspect of creation. Here the teaching of Jesus is helps us to see why. Once Jesus was criticized for allowing his disciples to pick some heads of grain on the Sabbath. Jesus replied “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:27). In this reply, Jesus sets a principle which is that where something is created to “serve” another purpose, then you don’t bypass that original purpose for the sake of adhering to that secondary creation. If for the sake of erring on the side of caution, Christians forbid homosexuality in order to maintain the male/female complementarity introduced in Genesis 2, then this would actually violate this principle taught by Christ. Just as “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” , so in exactly the same way, complementarity was made for relational intimacy, not relational intimacy for complementarity. Whereas for most people, male/female complementarity does serve relational intimacy, for one whose sexual orientation is not towards the opposite sex that kind of relational intimacy can only come through a same sex relationship. So the banning of lifelong homosexual union for the sake of maintaining complementarity is actually in violation of a principle clearly taught by Christ. It would be to make the same error as the Pharisees, who sought to ban the picking of grain on the Sabbath. A reading of the purpose of complementarity in Genesis, and the principle Jesus taught, leads us to the view that the meeting of relational intimacy is of primary importance, and is not to be sacrificed to maintain the pattern of complementarity whose very existence was to further the meeting of that need. The Theological Nature of Sin There is a further consideration about whether same sex relationships should be condemned in every context. In the New Testament there is a consistent pattern to everything that Jesus listed as sin. Some examples include: don’t murder, don’t hate, don’t commit adultery, don’t lust, don’t divorce your partner (unless the marriage is already destroyed by adultery), do what you’ve promised, don’t lie, don’t repay evil with evil, don’t hate your enemy, don’t neglect the needy, don’t just look after your own needs, don’t judge people. Already there’s probably enough there to see a pattern forming. Jesus identified as sin, the things that destroy relationships, the things the hurt people, and break trust, and cause people to walk away from each other. Jesus said that all of the Law could be summed up like this: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Jesus has therefore not left it up to us to identify what this “common denominator” is when it comes to what God regards as sinful: it is “lack of love”. And it makes sense in regard to God’s purpose for humanity, which is for people to be in relationship: “May they be one Father, as we are one, I in them and you in me…” And here’s where we come to homosexuality and same sex relationships. In every other case, “sin” is what damages and drives people apart. If same sex relationships are inherently wrong, in any context (i.e. not just expressions like promiscuity or abusive forms etc), it would be a “category unto itself”, completely outside the pattern of everything else we see. This is the single biggest theological problem with viewing same sex relationships as simply “necessarily sinful”. It is a departure from a consistent pattern within the New Testament about what the very nature of right and wrong is. Are There benefits to Same Sex Relationships? The benefits of loving, committed same sex relationships are essentially the same as those in heterosexual marriage, with the one exception that children cannot be conceived naturally through sexual activity between the partners. As has been noted however, the purpose of marriage is not introduced in the Bible as primarily meeting procreation needs. Rather, it is premised on the statement that “It is not good for the man to be alone.” Like traditional marriage, a loving, committed same sex relationship provides the opportunity for sexual intimacy, for love, self-giving, and personal growth, just as is the case in a heterosexual marriage. And, as noted by Paul, there is also the benefit of providing a healthy and loving outlet for sexuality (1 Cor 7:9). Given these benefits, and the absence of prohibitions that deal specifically with same sex activity in the context of a loving, committed relationship, it would seem that there are clear biblical grounds for a Christian position that supports same sex marriage. Indeed, the desire on the part of a same sex couple to commit themselves to each other in love, should be recognised as a positive good, just as with a heterosexual couple. How will this Change the Church’s Message to Homosexuals? So suppose that all of the above was accepted, and a Christian was able to support same sex relationships in a context of loving commitment. How might this change the message of the church towards gays? What it would mean, is that rather than a blanket condemnation of their very sexual orientation, in all its expressions, it would instead mean that the message of the church to gays would be that Christ wants to lead them to pursue love, faithfulness and self-giving within their relationships. In short, we would point to the very same qualities that Christ wants to improve in the lives of heterosexual couples. Instead of gays being confronted with a message that rejects them at the deepest core of their being, they would be hearing a message that calls them to the very same standards of love that apply to all people the world over. It is to be expected that such a message would be far more likely to touch the conscience, and reach the soul, than a blanket condemnation that leaves no option than endless relational aloneness. Rather than “weakening the message of the church” in relation to sin, the realisation that the church can actually accept loving, committed same sex relationships actually frees the church to focus more clearly on opposing that with is destructive to relationships, and affirming that which strengthen relationships and draws people together as they follow Christ. Share this: Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-michael-rothbaum/the-problem-of-homophobia-in-leviticus_b_3563972.html The Problem of Homophobia in Leviticus, and How Genesis Solves It 07/10/2013 03:47 pm ET | Updated Sep 09, 2013 1.6 K Rabbi Michael Rothbaum Rabbi, Oakland CA Now that the U.S. Supreme Court recognizes state-sanctioned same-sex marriages, the remaining voices opposing marriage equality -- or at least the loudest ones -- are primarily religious. Conservatives insist on "biblical marriage." Progressives, for their part, smugly reject the authority of "ancient texts." Sides are chosen. Battle lines are drawn. Less listening. More shouting. But what if both sides were wrong? What if the supposed biblical prohibition of gay sex were in reality an affirmation of honest and loving sexual relationships? No Extra Words The text most often quoted by in defense of biblical homophobia is Leviticus 18:22. In Hebrew, it reads, "V'et-zachar lo tishkav mish'k'vei ishah." It is usually translated as, "Do not lie with a male as you would lie with women," an apparent universal condemnation of sex between men. The words "et-zachar lo tishkav" clearly mean "don't lie with a male" or "don't bed a male." In a chapter that's seemingly addressed to men, that directive would make perfect sense all by itself. But Jewish tradition, best expressed by Talmudic sage Rabbi Akiva, teaches that there are no superfluous words in Torah. Why, then, would the Torah add the peculiar phrase "mish'k'vei ishah"? That "mish'k'vei ishah" means "as you would lie with women" is far from obvious. The word "mish'k'vei" itself appears only three times in all of scripture: in the two supposed prohibitions of gay sex in Leviticus, and at the end of the book of Genesis. Whose Bed Is Whose? The scene is Jacob's deathbed. As the patriarch prepares to die, Jacob gathers his sons around him to tell them what will happen in the days after his death. First-born son Reuben, perhaps expecting a blessing from his father, is nevertheless condemned by Jacob with the charge of "instability." And then Jacob directly scolds his son, "Alita mish'k'vei avicha!" reads Genesis 49:4. "You ascended your father's beds!" What's all this about beds? It seems that back in Genesis 35, "Reuben went and lay with Bilchah, his father's concubine." In addition to being wed to sisters Leah and Rachel, Jacob has sexual access to two concubines: Bilchah and Zilpah. In context, then, Jacob's condemnation is not literal. Jacob is not angry that Reuben was physically in his bed; he is angry about the sexual relationship that Reuben had there. Bilchah, as Jacob's concubine, is permitted to be with Jacob. Reuben violated that boundary. Read this way, the term "mish'k'vei avicha" -- the "beds of your father" -- is a metaphor for Jacob's sexual domain. Reuben is in trouble because he violated his father's sexual space. How Genesis Solves Leviticus Jewish tradition teaches that when Torah uses a similar phrase in two places, there's a connection, such that information about one case may be applied to the other. It's called a "gezera shava." Taking the meaning from Genesis and applying it to Leviticus 18:22, the result is this translation: "Don't bed a male in the bed of a woman," or perhaps, "Don't bed a male in the sexual domain of a woman." This is not a text prohibiting homosexuality. It is a text about respecting our relationships. Recall the earlier incident in Genesis. Jacob has just lost his Rachel, his beloved. Torah tells us that Jacob, having just set the monument upon her grave, immediately hears the mortifying news that Reuben has slept with his concubine. How do we begin to understand Reuben's behavior? Perhaps Reuben feels his own pain and humiliation. It has been suggested that Jacob, following the death of favored wife Rachel, established his primary sleeping space with Bilchah, rather than with Reuben's mother Leah. Reuben's father chooses not Leah but a concubine. Given such a scenario, it's not hard to imagine Reuben "acting out." What, then, was the sex act about? Who was it about? Probably not Bilchah, who is object, not subject, in this text. Was it Reuben's intention to "despoil" Bilchah so that Jacob could no longer have relations with her and would have to sleep with Leah? Was it to exact revenge against his father? Control? Dominance? To cast guilt, doubt, shame over all the sexual relations of his father? Over all the "mish'k'vei avicha," "the beds of his father"? This sex act, then, was not a loving act. It was an act of anger and vengeance. These are both possible reasons to have sex. And they're both the wrong reasons to have sex. Seen in this light, the condemnation we read in Leviticus seems to shift. "V'et-zachar lo tishkav mish'k'vei ishah." "Don't bed a male in the sexual space of a woman." Who is this woman? A wife of one of the men involved? A woman who expects integrity and honesty in her marriage but is betrayed? And who are the men? Men who long for a full relationship with each other but are denied such by society and must resort to deceit, tortured by guilt and self-loathing? Men who have sex with women not as an act of love but as a grueling burden? Men who bring that torment upon all the "mish'k'vei ishah," "the beds of women"? It is an abomination to bring this shame and guilt upon a marital bed. And, all the more so, it is an abomination for any state to demand us to do so. What Leviticus Is Trying to Teach Us The Bible is a wild, sprawling document, but to me it has one unifying theme: There's a Power hidden in all that happens in the world, and that Power is concerned with holiness and justice. Readers from Moses to Martin have found a text that demands an accounting on behalf of the immigrant, the worker, the widow -- a revolutionary worldview that our present moment demands perhaps more than ever. Just as the Bible demands that we being justice to our marketplaces and workspaces, chapter 18 of Leviticus asks us to take the revolutionary step of seeing our bed-space as holy space -- to see sex not as merely a mechanical, procreative act but as a conduit to the Divine. Ultimately, Leviticus invites us to be open and honest with ourselves and our partners, to reject deception, to come out of hiding, and to create relationships that are loving, honest, and sacred. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 I said this in the very beginning and I will say it again. If our church were to study the issue of Homosexuality in the Bible like we study Hell and the Mark of the Beast and the State of the Dead.... We (thankfully) may come up with very different conclusions. And be a real Church Reflecting JESUS finally! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 17 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said: I said this in the very beginning and I will say it again. If our church were to study the issue of Homosexuality in the Bible like we study Hell and the Mark of the Beast and the State of the Dead.... We (thankfully) may come up with very different conclusions. And be a real Church Reflecting JESUS finally! It doesn't take much study time to properly discern the value of avoiding that which the Word defines as an abomination to God. …22And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh....Jude 1 20O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge "-- 21which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.....1 Timothy 6 These two messages of just a few minutes say more than I could in an hours discourse of the Word. God is Love! ~Jesus saves! Dingdong 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 1 hour ago, LifeHiscost said:I It doesn't take much study time to properly discern the value of avoiding that which the Word defines as an abomination to God. Yes but more intense study might show us God didn't really mean what it says in Romans. Makes sense something vital to our salvation would be left a mystery for thousands of years Romans 1:20-32 Rom 1:20-32 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. (22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. (24) Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. (25) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (26) For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, (27) and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. (28) And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. (29) They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, (30) slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, (31) senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. (32) Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them. phkrause and Dingdong 2 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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