Adventists in Scandinavia Discontinue Ordination for All Pastors

[Tom Wetmore]

At the July GC there were more female delegates than men... 

  ???

That is simply not correct.  Of the 2566 delegates  only 17% were female.  That is only 436 females vs. 2,130 males.

[Stan]

MINKY   did you mean from Scandinavia?

[Gerr]

"If you don't play by my rules, I 'm taking my ball and go home" kind of thing?

[Tom Wetmore]

Not really.  Nobody is taking their equipment or themselves out of the game by doing this.   It is affirmatively staying in the game playing by the rules they are given.  The rules as they are right now do not require men to be ordained or to carry a credential of an ordained minister to serve as a pastor.  Men have been issued commissioned minister credentials for years.  Those rules quite clearly permit men to carry a credential of a commissioned minister and serve the Church as a pastor or in a variety of other roles. (There was a time when that was the credential issued to me by the General Conference, until an Administrative Ministries credential was added to the policy to distinguish those of us not in predominantly religious roles.)  

And more to the action taken by the Scandinavian conferences, the rules do not require that pastors be issued either credential for that matter.  As many opponents have repeatedly said, "Why all the fuss about women needing to be ordained.  They can do all kinds of ministry without it."  So can men. And this action really is more faithful to our Fundamental beliefs anyway.  (See #14 and #17)

It really is not negative reaction to not getting their way.  It is quite simply a positive response to move forward and get on with the work of the Church that says, "If the rules won't be changed to make sense consistent with the real facts of the situation, then we will change the facts of the situation to make sense consistent with the rules."  

 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Tom Wetmore
Added clarification.

[Johann]

Tax benefits:  These will vary from country to country and I have no reason to assume that any other country has tax benefits similar to those in the U.S.

NOTE:  I lived for several years in both Asia and in Central America.  I never once heard SDAs mention tax benefits similar to those in the U.S.  Perhaps they had them.  perhaps they did not.  I simply do not know.

In the past I have worked both in Denmark and Norway as an ordained minister. At that time there were no tax benefits for tithe or gifts in Norway. All recognized churches were treated equally. The state returned  an equal percentage of tax funds according to the membership to each church, also counting unbaptized infants if the mother had registered as an adventist at the hospital where the birth took place. Church clerks received the records of such births and had to keep such records, even when the mother was not listed as a memer before the birth. Thus the government gave us the opportunity of having contact with mothers who had never been baptized and yet made an official claim to be an adventist.

This new church law came around 1970 and was accepted by most adventists in Norway. Only very few memers objected to this kind of state recognition and requested their memership be dropped to avoid being on a list known to the government. Those I knew of kept on fully participating in all church activities even though they were no longer memers of the church.

In Denmark people who sign a promisary note of donating either a certain amount or percentage of their annual income - with a maximum of 15% - during the next 10 years to a recogized institution will receive a tax benefit,

As far as I recall there was a time when the SDA church in these countries automatically deducted the tithe from the payroll of the workers, only reporting 9/10 as a salary to the tax authorities. With the new laws this was no longer possible.

In Norway the state authorizes the head elder of a church to perform marriage ceremonies. The law does not state that it has to be an ordained pastor. When the conference office reports to the government that the pastor is no longer the head elder of a church in Norway the authorization is invalid unless he is reported as a head elder of another church in Norway. A pastor who is an elder in another country has no authority to perform marriages in Norway, even though he is a Norwegian citizen and has previously worked in Norway.

The laws are quite different in Denmark where I have also performed marriages, and none of them are similar to those in the United States.

The Genral Conference has no authory to vote rules that apply in certain countries but are against the laws elsewhere unless there is a specific Biblical doctrine at stake.

[Johann]

I understand that friendly negotiations are still taking place between Scandinavian leaders and the GC.

[Green Cochoa]

If Jesus ordained His disciples, and if His life was lived to show us the way, as our Exemplar in all things, then it cannot be wrong to ordain.  Why Scandinavia does not ordain appears to have more to do with a man-made issue than with a God-given mandate.  There is nothing I can find in either the Bible or Mrs. White to say we should not ordain our church elders.  Mrs. White has told us to accept only a plain "thus saith the LORD" for every question of faith and practice.  Where, then, is the "thus saith the LORD" to support Scandinavia's stance?

[Gregory Matthews]

Green:

While I have agreement with parts of your post, I think that the issue is a bit more complex than you seem to think it is.

No, I will say that there is nothing wrong with the ordination various denominational leaders.  But, that word can have various meanings.  The Roman Catholic position on ordination may not reflect the Biblical positon on ordination.

I am one of many who suggest that ordination, as practiced today in the SDA denomination, sometimes reflects Roman Catholic ideas that are not supported in Scripture. 

Personally, I would prefer that we (the SDA denomination) continue to ordain, but in a more Biblical sense.

But, those who suggest that we no longer ordain anyone are, in part, simply asking that we return to a more Biblical practice. From this perspective I disagree with your assessment that Scandinavia is more concerned with a "man-made issue" than a "God-given mandate."

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Green, in your post above, you tell us to only accept a plain "thus saith the LORD" for every question of faith and practice.

Yet, that is NOT a positon that you practice your self.

Posting on February 3, 2014, in responding to Indyus  your said, in part:

 

Quote

. . . .since the Bible does not directly address this form of polygamy (polyandry)? Is it alright for a woman to covet her neighbor's husband, since the Ten Commandments do not reverse the genders on that command for us?

 

I happen to think that your statement above was the correct one.  I agree with you.

However, I will suggest that you have demonstrated that the correct position is to go to the Bible and look for principles and not expect to find every application of those principles stated in the Bible.

In any case, you clearly, and correctly, do not follow you own advice in the post that I cited at the beginning of this post of mine.

[Unchained]

"The Seventh-day Adventist Church in Sweden announced today that like Norway and Denmark and Belgium-Luxembourghave done, the Swedish Union of Churches Conference will cease ordaining pastors."

read more: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2016/03/13/seventh-day-adventist-church-sweden-votes-stop-all-pastoral-ordinations

[Unchained]

Also relevant:

Swiss Conference includes Men and Women Pastors in a Combined Commissioning-Ordination Event

http://atoday.org/swiss-conference-includes-men-women-pastors-combined-commissioning-ordination-event.html

[CoAspen]

You might want to wipe it off your face........before going out in public!