Are there really Jesuits in the Church?

[lazarus]

I've always wondered. Are there really Jesuits in the SDA church? Have you ever met one? What did they do? How did you know they were a Jesuit? Could I be a Jesuit and not know it?

[Nan]

I think the answer will depend on who is asking the question, certain individuals I could think of would see said people lurking in many places.

I recently read a review about the last 8 GCs from a certain well known person who calls himself SDA - it would not surprise me if he is firmly of the opinion that the church has been infiltrated.

I have not met one to my knowledge - and I do not think I am one <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

Some SDAs (of the persuasion I would characterize as paranoid, conspiracy-theoryist, and superstitious) seem to regard the "Jesuit infiltration" flap the same way people talk in hushed whispers about the Illuminati. Those who do so, of course, evince in so doing that they know nothing resembling reality concerning either one. They may as well be talking about flying saucers. REAL LIFE JESUITS are NOT interested in "infiltrating" and "taking over" the SDA church.

The way these notions get started is because someone notes something being TAUGHT or promoted in the church which RESEMBLES Jesuit thinking or teaching, and in the process of communicating the concern this gets twisted into the notion that Jesuits are being secretly trained and sent out as spiritual sabotage agents into the SDA church. This is ludicrous of course, but those who swear by such nonsense will also tell you that anyone pooh-poohing it, as I am shamelessly doing, is probably one of THEM!!!!

It's nonsense.

[Neil D]

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Are there really Jesuits in the SDA church? Have you ever met one? What did they do? How did you know they were a Jesuit? Could I be a Jesuit and not know it?

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Literal Jesuits? Maybe, just maybe one or two....Former Jesuits, maybe more....But literal spying jesuits???? No.

In talking with a abusive Roman Catholic priest, SDAs are way way down on the radar....and according to him, because we have this paranoia of possible Jesuits spying in the church, our whole organization is dysfunctional. To which, if we truely are concerned about Jesuits spying in our church, I would agree.

Now, lazarus, if you change your question to MEAN , "Do we have SPIRITUAL Jesuits?", then yeah, we got lots of them!

[LifeHiscost]

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lazarus said:

I've always wondered. Are there really Jesuits in the SDA church? Have you ever met one?

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I certainly hope so.

[:"red"] "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden..." [/] Matthew 5:14 NASB

[:"red"] "No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light." [/] Luke 11:33 KJV

[John317]

I don't oppose Catholics joining the SDA church. My wife was a Catholic before she became an SDA, and I hope millions of Catholics study and decide to become Seventh-day Adventists. The problem is when Jesuits or Jesuit-trained people join the SDA church, or any church, with the intention of spying on the church or of influencing church teachings, whether through becoming a leader or a professor in an SDA educational institution.

Whether Jesuits have actually infiltrated the SDA church is probably impossible to prove, but it is a fact that one of the stated plans of the Jesuits is to enter all sorts of organizations and churches with the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican. I think anyone who would be shocked to find out this was the case needs to study the history of the Jesuits as well as do a close study of church history.

Anyone interested in this subject should read pages 563 to 581 of the Great Controversy by Ellen G. White. Jim

[John317]

One excellent, fairly recent book on the Jesuits is by a well-known author who himself was once a Jesuit and a professor at the Roman Catholic university in the Vatican. His name was Malachi Martin, and he was the author of The Jesuits and The Keys of This Blood. Both books are definitely worth reading. Jim

[LifeHiscost]

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John317 said:

I think anyone who would be shocked to find out this was the case needs to study the history of the Jesuits as well as do a close study of church history.

Anyone interested in this subject should read pages 563 to 581 of the Great Controversy by Ellen G. White. Jim

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There's a song with the words, "They shall know we are Christians by our love, by our love. They shall know we are Christians by our love."

[:"red"] " By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." [/] John 13:35 NASB

[:"red"] "For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth." [/] 2 Corinthians 13:8 NASB

Blessings!

[Neil D]

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he problem is when Jesuits or Jesuit-trained people join the SDA church, or any church, with the intention of spying on the church or of influencing church teachings, whether through becoming a leader or a professor in an SDA educational institution.

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Ok, I will bite. Who, at Andrews, do you concider a Jesuit who is spying on the church or influencing church teachings?

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Whether Jesuits have actually infiltrated the SDA church is probably impossible to prove, but it is a fact that one of the stated plans of the Jesuits is to enter all sorts of organizations and churches with the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican.

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Who said this? At what time? And who do you think is a Jesuit?

To promote fear is to establish the myth that Adventism exists for the sole purpose to be against something, in this case, against Catholisim...I would hope that my church is established on a better foundation than that...

[Dr. Shane]

If there ever were Jesuits in the church with the purpose of changing our doctrine, they arn't needed any more.

There are many in the church that:

• question the literal creation week
• question the need to keep the Sabbath holy
• question that Sunday is the mark of the beast
• question the Sanctuary doctrine
• question the soon return of Christ
• question that the Adventist church is God's remnant

So maybe there were some but they already accomplished their purpose. I have never been much for conspiriacy theories myself.

[John317]

Do you believe what is written in the book Great Controversy, particularly on pages 563 to 581?

Have you studied the history of the Jesuits and read books about them, such as the book by Malachi Martin called The Jesuits? Jim

[John317]

Have you read and do you believe what is written on pages 234, 235, and 563 to 592 of The Great Controversy?

How about being established on truth? No one is asking you to base your beliefs on fear. I have heard people make the same argument against belief in the Bible and in the book of Revelation-- that people who believe these things believe them because of fear. Yes, the Bible warns us of fearful things, but that is because God wants us to know the truth about them for our own good. It's like a parent warning a child about harmful things. What if the child were to say, "Well I am not going to pay attention to my parents' warnings because that would be basing my beliefs on fear"? Wouldn't you agree that such a child would be foolish?

In the case of the Jesuits, it would not be wise to ignore what the Jesuits themselves have said about their reason for being, which includes infiltrating groups for the benefit of the Vatican. Again, go to the library and study. You might want to start with the book by Malachi Martin called The Jesuits.

As to your question who is a Jesuit at Andrews University, I never said there is a Jesuit at that school. I said it is impossible to know but that if there was one anywhere in our schools and churches, we should not be surprised in view of their history, their declared purpose , and what Ellen White wrote in the Great Controversy. (I'm assuming that SDAs still believe in Ellen White as a prophet of God.) Jim

[John317]

Shane,

Read the Great Controversy, pages 234, 235 and 563 to 592. Remember that the basic purpose of the founding and work of the Jesuits is to undo everything that Protestantism accomplished. Every kind of crime is permitted so long as it leads to that objective.

It is true that many in the SDA church question practically everything the church stands for and believes. Based on what Ellen White said would be the condition not long before Christ comes back, when the church will appear as if about to fall, we really ought not to be surprised at this, and we ought to know that it is going to be much worse than it is now.

What do you think is the source of all this confusion in the church? To whose benifit is it that the SDA church is in confusion? Who has stated it as his ambition and purpose to bring all the daughter churches back to the Mother Church? If SDAs lose their vision and understanding of who they are and why the movement exists, then there is no reason not to go back to the Catholic Church, just as pastor of the Crystal Cathedral suggested. If we don't realize what is in the future, it is no one's fault but our own.

By the way, have you read the passages in Ellen White in which she says demons will actually take on human appearance and speak for the purpose of causing doubt and confusion in the church? Do you believe that? Jim

[John317]

The main reason that God raised up the SDA movement is to give the Three Angels' Messages and prepare those who will listen to get ready for the Second Coming of Christ. There is no way we can do that if we refuse to tell the truth, and that means having a willingness to expose doctrinal error. For instance, if the Roman Catholic system involves an earthly priesthood that is a counterfeit of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, we have to be willing to tell the truth about it or else we are betraying our purpose for being. Do you believe this? Jim

[John317]

Do you believe what is written in the The Great Controversy? Do you believe that God gave visions and dreams to Ellen White and that she wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Please read the pages that I have already referred to in the previous post, and also spend at least a month doing more than a superficial study on the Jesuits. Jim

[John317]

Have you read The Keys of This Blood by Malachi Martin? Read that and his book, The Jesuits, as well as the book, The Great Controversy, and then come back for further discussion of this subject. Jim

[LifeHiscost]

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John317 said:

By the way, have you read the passages in Ellen White in which she says demons will actually take on human appearance and speak for the purpose of causing doubt and confusion in the church?

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I think I can understand your concern, Jim, as I remember as a young (SDA) Christian reading the comments from the Spirit of Prophecy re: false doctrines among the believers.

However, long ago it became a settled conviction of my own mind that the best way to counteract false premises of whatever sort, was to become saturated by the Word of God while seeking for and depending upon the Holy Spirit to fulfill the promise of guidance into all truth.

It is true this has not been fully accomplished yet, and I don't expect it to be until the appearing of Jesus at His second coming. But in the meantime Jesus asks me to love those very ones who might try to disrupt the body of Christ by subtle or overt means, just as He did in facing His detractors on the way to the cross.

This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies.

The best way for any and all of God's children to protect themselves against the enemy of souls is to know and heed God when He speaks, and the only way that can be accomplished is to be as totally aware as possible of the published writings of His word, while exercising love for each and every soul for whom Jesus spilled His blood.

[:"red"] "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'

"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'

"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.

'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'" [/]

Matthew 13:27-30 NASB

Do these words say anything to you? And how best should they be applied? I'm sure many devout Christians have an answer. A system of worship other than what our Lord Jesus Christ instituted should always be differentiated from the genuine. But until Jesus calls for the tares to be separated from the wheat, to be dealt with as He in His justice and complete knowledge knows is best, only love will suffice to meet the emergencies that exist.

[:"red"] "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [/] Ephesians 6:12 KJV

[:"red"] "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible , they shall deceive the very elect." [/] Matthew 24:24 KJV

I believe that little word "if" is used rhetorically, indicating there is no possible way the elect will be deceived. Therefore it is my desire to know the word so well I can find assurance I am listed among the elect, while being able to give assurance to others, they also can find assurance they are on that list.

[:"red"] "And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb who was killed before the world was made. " [/] Rev 13:8 NLT

[:"red"] "And they have defeated him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of their testimony. And they were not afraid to die. " [/] Rev 12:11 NLT

Keep the faith!

[Nan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies.

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[:"red"] AMEN, AMEN, AMEN NAOMI [/]

This does not mean to live in ignorance but we also do not need to be sidetracked into searching for 'enemies' behind every bush.

[John317]

As far as the Illuminati are concerned, have you read a well-documented book called The Illuminati 666, by William Josiah Sutton? Roy Allen Anderson, a highly-respected Adventist author, teacher, and evangelist, wrote the introduction to it. It is published by TEACH Services, Inc. www.TSIBooks.com You can also get it at the Adventist book stores.

If you were to read it, you would not be so quick to call belief in the Illuminati nonsense. Jim

[John317]

Hi Leon,

Thanks for the post. I agree with everything you said here and have taken it to heart. Jim

[Neil D]

Dismissing me with the ol' "you gotta read these books before I will talk with you" is nothing short of insulting, Jim.

I have read the Great Controversy...I have NO interest in reading anything that will feed my own paranoia, ie The Keys of this Blood by some catholic priest.

Third, what you concider "the three angels messages" and why God raised up the SDA Church may be two distinct and separate things and interestingly enough, the Origionator did not include you as to the whys and wherefores, but rather wants you to live within those two distinct separate subjects as if your life depended upon it and to love at the same time. You can't do that if you are fighting something. God did not make you just so that you could fight. Rather, He created you in love, to love, and to witness Him, so that the world can "taste and see that the Lord is Good".

Have you not read the Great Controversy? Better yet, have you not read the Bible?????

[Nicodema]

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John317 said:

...and also spend at least a month doing more than a superficial study on the Jesuits. Jim

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Your "passion" for this subject is obvious by the voluminous nature of your posts and your urgent tone, but kindly refrain from making presumptuous statements concerning the extent of other people's knowledge. You simply have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER how much I have or have not read about the Jesuits. I happen to have read Great Controversy cover to cover, and various sections of its latter half over and over on several occasions. I also happen to have read books by Malachi Martin.

The fact that I do not feel compelled to formulate or adopt a conspiracy-theory perspective on the prospect of Jesuits literally slipping into the cracks and slithering between the nooks and crannies of the SDA church as a result does not mean I am unfamiliar with that material. It simply means I have additionally examined the fruits of promulgating such theories and found them sorely wanting, and unworthy of my attention.

[Nicodema]

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LifeHiscost said:

I think I can understand your concern, Jim, as I remember as a young (SDA) Christian reading the comments from the Spirit of Prophecy re: false doctrines among the believers.

However, long ago it became a settled conviction of my own mind that the best way to counteract false premises of whatever sort, was to become saturated by the Word of God while seeking for and depending upon the Holy Spirit to fulfill the promise of guidance into all truth.

It is true this has not been fully accomplished yet, and I don't expect it to be until the appearing of Jesus at His second coming. But in the meantime Jesus asks me to love those very ones who might try to disrupt the body of Christ by subtle or overt means, just as He did in facing His detractors on the way to the cross.

This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies.

The best way for any and all of God's children to protect themselves against the enemy of souls is to know and heed God when He speaks, and the only way that can be accomplished is to be as totally aware as possible of the published writings of His word, while exercising love for each and every soul for whom Jesus spilled His blood.

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Totally excellent post in every respect. Praise God for that light, LHC. You are right on, and said it far better than I did.

[Nicodema]

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John317 said:

As far as the Illuminati are concerned, have you read a well-documented book called The Illuminati 666, by William Josiah Sutton? Roy Allen Anderson, a highly-respected Adventist author, teacher, and evangelist, wrote the introduction to it. It is published by TEACH Services, Inc.

www.TSIBooks.com

You can also get it at the Adventist book stores.

If you were to read it, you would not be so quick to call belief in the Illuminati nonsense. Jim

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Jim, if you had read my post carefully you would have realized I did not call belief in the Illuminati nonsense. I called various notions entertained in tandem with that belief nonsense. Secondhand information written from a predetermined agenda rather than objective research is full of just such nonsense.

The actual Order of the Illuminati was formed by German Adam Weishaupt. Jesuit-educated, he broke away from them in 1775 and two years later, became a Freemason. As his attempt to reform Masonry with his own concepts of illuminism were unwelcomed, this led to him founding his own order -- something occultists frequently did (and still do today) when they find themselves at odds with whatever brotherhood or society they have been initiated into. It's basically the occult equivalent of the pattern Protestants follow when they break off from existing denominational orgs -- over doctrinal or practical differences -- to establish new ones.

Discussing the actual aims or purposes of the real Illuminati is pointless with anyone who can't tell the difference between a Freemason and a devil worshipper, or who buys into unrealistic conspiracy theories about the global influence of occult orders in literal, visible geopolitical matters. I find that such misconceptions are usually predicated upon a superstitious and uninformed notion that these organizations are central to some fixed, formulated plan by Satan himself. Anyone with actual firsthand experience in these matters simply knows better.

You'd probably get farther arguing for the destructive influence of the cronyism inherent in bogus frat-brat societies such as Skull and Bones. At least there you'd be closer to the truth.

If you would like to read factual information about the Illuminati, you might want to try the Bavarian Illuminati Primer (click the link).

p.s. To answer your question, yes I have read The Illuminati 666. It's an interesting blend of selective fact-bites and fanciful fiction, typical of those writing secondhand from a predetermined agenda to promote conspiracy theory.

[:"blue"]

11 The LORD spoke to me with his strong hand upon me, warning me not to follow the way of this people. He said:

12 "Do not call conspiracy

everything that these people call conspiracy ;

do not fear what they fear,

and do not dread it.

13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,

he is the one you are to fear,

he is the one you are to dread ...

[/]

(Isaiah 8:11-13)

Interesting ... I did not put that icon there on purpose; it occurred because a footnote "[ f ]" was in the text I copied, but it is certainly fitting in this case!

[bevin]

If the church government is

• open
• implementing the publically developed policies of the GC In Session
• doing what its membership wants it to do

then it doesn't matter to the church as a whole if the GC president is actually a Female Wicca Priestess, and she and twelve others are having a weekly coven meeting in the Sligo Church.

The answer to conspiracies and takeovers is public setting of direction and transparency.

It is also the answer to incompetence and criminality.

/Bevin