Moderators John317 Posted January 16, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2006 I certainly meant no insult by telling you to study the issue. I am only pointing out evidence but if you want to avoid it, that is your decision. I pointed out pages in the Great Controversy that show that the Jesuits were founded with the purpose of defeating and overcoming Protestantism and that the Catholic church today has not really changed fundamentally from what it was in Luther's time. It's goals and its fundamental teachings are identical. I also point out some books that tell the truth about the Jesuits, books written by a man who was once a Jesuit professor in a prestegious Jesuit university. Now, again, if you don't want to look at the evidence, you are free to ignore it, of course. Yes, I have been studying the Bible and the writings of Ellen White ever since I was baptized into Christ and into God's remnant, commandment keeping church in 1973. Praise God he got me out of my immoral, Devil-serving lifestyle and brought me into His marvellous light where I have far greater pleasures and more joy than I ever experienced when I was allowing Satan to use my body as a weapon against God. I confess openly and unashamedly I love the book Great Controversy-- next to the Bible, it is the book I read most. Before, it was the works of Nietzsche, Karl Marx, Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Jean Genet, and Andre Gide that I loved, but by God's grace, they have been replaced by the Bible and the writings of God's prophet, Ellen G. White. I am not at all ashamed to say that I do believe in the Bible and, therefore, in the writing of Ellen White. I used to count as my close friends people who hated the Bible and made fun of anyone who took it seriously. Today I am glad to accept ridicule also by people who claim to be members of the SDA and who think I have too much faith in the wonderful, God-given writings of Ellen White. So many SDAs don't know how privilaged they are to have those writings. I hope and pray that God will one day open our blind eyes. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Nicodema said: Totally excellent post in every respect. Praise God for that light, LHC. You are right on, and said it far better than I did. I feel humbled by your kind response, Nico, and only wish each time I gave comment, it revealed our Savior's love for those for whom He died. I'm looking forward to meeting you, among many others who struggle against the enemy of souls, after God has completed His work in our lives. [:"red"] "Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]-- " [/] Jude 1:24 AMP Keep looking up! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Nan said: Quote: This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies. [:"red"] AMEN, AMEN, AMEN NAOMI [/] This does not mean to live in ignorance but we also do not need to be sidetracked into searching for 'enemies' behind every bush. Thank you for each of your kind comments. May the Lord be praised that we each can and will be used by Him to reveal truth as we yield to His attentive care. [:"red"] "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." [/] Matthew 5:16 KJV As Stan would say, courage! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: John317 said: I certainly meant no insult by telling you to study the issue. I am only pointing out evidence but if you want to avoid it, that is your decision. I notice your response was directed to Neil. However, I would like to point out that examining what you offer as "evidence" I do not feel compelled to form the same conclusions as yourself. I hope you will take the time to read my response to your post on page 1, as well as (if the subject interests you so greatly) doing some actual research on the Illuminati and other such groups instead of reading second-hand fancifully interpreted nonsense written by second-rate paranoid conspiracy-theory inventors looking to sell fear and villianizing sensationalism rather than anything approximating genuine research. Quote: John317 said: I pointed out pages in the Great Controversy that show that the Jesuits were founded with the purpose of defeating and overcoming Protestantism This is a misconception easily dispelled. Here is an objective statement concerning the actual purpose behind the founding of the Society of Jesus: On August 15, 1534, Ignatius (born Iñigo López de Loyola) and six other students (Francis Xavier, a fellow Basque, Alfonso Salmeron, James Lainez, and Nicholas Bobadilla, Spaniards, Peter Faber from France and Simon Rodrigues, a Portuguese) met in Montmartre outside Paris, probably near the modern Chapel of St Denys, Rue Antoinette, and binding themselves by a vow of poverty and chastity, founded the Society of Jesus – to "enter upon hospital and missionary work in Jerusalem, or to go without questioning wherever the pope might direct". The name "Jesuit" is actually a perjorative term which the Society gradually came to accept as complimentary: The term "Jesuit" (of fifteenth-century origin, meaning one who used too frequently or appropriated the name of Jesus), was first applied to the Society in reproach (1544-52), and was never employed by its founder, though members and friends of the Society in time accepted the name in its positive meaning. The notion that the Jesuit Order was founded specifically to defeat and overcome Protestantism is a false argument based upon timing and the success of the Society in establishing colleges and sending forth Catholic missionaries to all parts of the world: The Jesuits were founded just before the Counter-Reformation, a movement whose purpose was to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within and to counter the Protestant Reformers, whose teachings were spreading throughout Catholic Europe. As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience both to scripture and also Roman Catholic doctrine. (emphasis mine). Note that the Jesuit Order was founded prior to the counter-reformation. Note that the aims and purposes you have ascribed to the Jesuits are actually those of the counter-reformation itself. As for their service to the RCC, naturally a Catholic Society is going to encourage loyalty to the Catholic doctrine and faith. We certainly would not expect a Baptist Society, for example, to encourage people to become Lutherans or Presbyterians; why should we expect a Catholic Society to NOT work for the interest of its "mother church?" Quote: John317 said: ... and that the Catholic church today has not really changed fundamentally from what it was in Luther's time. It's goals and its fundamental teachings are identical. This is true, but again, Catholics believe Catholicism is right, so why should we expect any of that to change? We SDAs believe SDA-ism is right; we're not about to stop pursuing the goals or alter the fundamental teachings of the SDA church either. It's just the way things ARE when one embraces a faith. There's nothing any more sinister about it when Catholics do it for Catholicism than when Baptists do it for Baptist doctrine or SDAs do it for SDA-ism. It's just the way humans behave when they believe their faith is the right way and they are loyal to it. Quote: John317 said: I also point out some books that tell the truth about the Jesuits, books written by a man who was once a Jesuit professor in a prestegious Jesuit university. Key words: was once. I'm not sitting in judgment on Malachi Martin here in particular; just issuing a general warning that the pattern of the disgruntled departee from a church, cult, faith, organization, etc. is well known. They tend to dish up the dirt and paint everything in the worst light, casting aspersions on wherever they "left from" in order to distance themselves from their past and justify their departure as something noble rather than dissent or disloyalty (as no doubt such doubts occasionally haunt their decision, and are part and parcel with questioning "why on earth was I ever a part of THAT???") So this is not to say that everyone who leaves an organization is trying to spread lies or smear campaign against it; rather that recognizing typical human patterns of dealing with transition can afford us some objectivity here that we would not otherwise have. It is tempting to view the departee as the "Ultimate Expert" on the matters he or she has left behind, but a one-sided story never offers an objective view. Quote: John317 said: Yes, I have been studying the Bible and the writings of Ellen White ever since I was baptized into Christ and into God's remnant, commandment keeping church in 1973. ... I confess openly and unashamedly I love the book Great Controversy-- next to the Bible, it is the book I read most. ... [other books] have been replaced by the Bible and the writings of God's prophet, Ellen G. White. I am not at all ashamed to say that I do believe in the Bible and, therefore, in the writing of Ellen White. ... Today I am glad to accept ridicule also by people who claim to be members of the SDA and who think I have too much faith in the wonderful, God-given writings of Ellen White. Where on earth is all of THAT coming from? I must have missed something because I have not seen ANYWHERE on this thread where anyone has "ridiculed" you for reading Ellen White or having "faith" in her writings. The problem I see here is not Ellen White nor what is written in the Great Controversy. The problem is that you have a thick layer of nonsense attached to certain passages in the Great Controversy which regurgitate themselves in your thinking whenever you revisit said passages, and cause you to mistakenly believe the content of this thick layer of nonsense is therefore inherent in the text of GC itself. As anyone who reads the same passages and does NOT feel compelled to your conclusions can testify, that content is NOT there. You are doing eisegesis; that is, you are reading INTO that passage what you imagine it to "actually" mean above and beyond what it is actually saying. That's my diagnosis, anyway. Be that as it may, no one has "ridiculed" you for reading EGW. That's another reason I'm dead set against all this kind of conspiracy-theory nonsense flying about: it engenders residual paranoia in otherwise rational people. The moment anyone disagrees with the conspiracy-theory, the one who has bought into it starts wondering if the other might be a Jesuit (or whatever pet boogeyman is being invoked in the "conspiracy") in disguise. Ludicrous, baseless suspicions get aroused and motives get speculated upon -- this leads to a critical, faultfinding spirit and before one knows it, one is pointing fingers at any and all detractors with the accusation "Jesuit infiltrator!" if not upon the lips than at least resounding secretly in the heart. Jim, these theories are worse than unfounded; they are spiritually destructive. Obey the counsel of the Lord in Isaiah 8 (quoted in my previous post) and leave them aside. Nico ========================= (Quotations above taken from Society of Jesus entry in Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Thank you, Nico, for some well founded advice and rebuttles to that nonsense. The Catholic Priest that I remember talking to had some very pointed and sharp truths about the adventist church...things like the SDA church was paranoid about the Catholic church, specifically Jesuits...And that our church had made assumptions regarding the Catholic church that just plain were not true....Like the pope is the anti-christ, and his tiara [you know what I mean] has 666 on it...and a bunch of other things...So far, finding evidence to counter or support the SDA myths are very sketchy at best. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Quote: Neil D said: Thank you, Nico, for some well founded advice and rebuttles to that nonsense. [:"red"] "For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms." [/] Ephesians 6:12 NLT [:"red"] "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?" [/] Luke 14:31 NASB If this be true, and I'm convinced it is, then would it not be wise to leave the battle in the hands of the Person able to win. [:"red"] "Yet amid all these things we are more than conquerors and gain a surpassing victory through Him Who loved us. " [/] Romans 8:37 AMP [:"red"] "'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'" [/] Matthew 13:30 NASB Keep the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Quote: Nicodema said: I'm not sitting in judgment on Malachi Martin here in particular; just issuing a general warning that the pattern of the disgruntled departee from a church, cult, faith, organization, etc. is well known. Malachi Martin was a devout Catholic in very good standing up until his death. His books are in fact written in support of the Church, not to denigrate in any way. Graeme release from Fr. Tom Widmer, S.J. at U.S. Jesuit Headquarters in Washington, D.C. Announcing that former Vicar General of the Jesuits Father Vincent O'Keefe, S.J. has finally admitted that Fr. Malachi Brendan Martin was indeed granted a full and legal dispensation from his Jesuit vows except for chastity and given a perpetual celebret to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in private. Nearly five years after his death, his reputation, so maligned by vicious rumors, innuendos and slander, has been restored. Kennedy's article can be found at High Ranking Jesuit Confirms Malachi Martin’s Status as Life Long Priest. (from Catholic Daily, Vol 15 No. 105) Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 From the end of the article cited in the previous post: This Irish American Catholic priest began as an Indiana Jones type of character in real life, evolved into an Ignatius of Loyola, Saint Francis Xavier type and became one of the great modern writers in the genre of Le Carre and John Grisham with the panache of Thomas Costain possessing an insight into the inner workings of the Church and world politics that no one else could convey. His imagination and grasp of real flesh-and-blood "fictional" characters in his novels not only prodded millions to spend hours page-turning, unable to put his novels down, but, much more importantly, tweaked the consciences of countless converts and Catholics who began to take their faith seriously as a result of many revelations revealed in his books. The scope of the impact of his novels? Only Heaven knows the true story. But now, thanks to the confession of Fr. Vincent O'Keefe, SJ, the world knows of Malachi's priestly perseverance and integrity. That will serve many well in making their peace with God for the atrocities against this talented man have greatly impugned his reputation and dignity over these past 40 years. At last vindication! Forgive them, Father Malachi, as we continue to pray for your soul as though it were in Purgatory. If you have reached the Church Triumphant, then intercede to the Almighty Beatific Vision that more will come forward and tell the truth. Truly the truth will set you free. Fr. O'Keefe is freer today because he freed Fr. Martin from the chains of slander and calumny. Deo gratias. Alleluia. Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 It was my understanding that he had left the Jesuit Order, though. Was that not the case? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Yes, you are right. In fact, he had a number of things he disagreed with about parts of the church (including Vatican II, I think - he is pretty much an ultra conservative in Church matters, a la Mel Gibson) but he remained a devout member of the Mother Church. I believe he was attempting to "reform" from within, rather than attacking from without. His book "The Keys of This Blood" documents the struggle through 1990 for world dominion between Pope John Paul II, Mikhail Gorbachev, and the Capitalist West. Martin wrote from a traditional Roman Catholic perspective and explains why Pope John Paul II personally endorsed evolution in 1996 and exposed his ecumenical agenda publicly. He also wrote a number of other books such as the expose "The Jesuits" and "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church". His novels tended to be based on the themes of the church, including "Vatican". In "The Keys of This Blood" he stated that there was a Satanic group inside the Vatican and that some of the Vatican rites and ceremonies were strongly Satanic. Interesting guy. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Beach Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 The quickest way to be accused of being a Jesuit is to ask a "Jesuit-hunter" for proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 12, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2006 LifeHisCost said, " A system of worship other than what our Lord Jesus Christ instituted should always be differentiated from the genuine. But until Jesus calls for the tares to be separated from the wheat, to be dealt with as He in His justice and complete knowledge knows is best, only love will suffice to meet the emergencies that exist." I completely agree with your statement. I am only advocating telling the truth about doctrinal error, such as the following false doctrines: the counterfeit high priestly ministry on earth, the Sunday sacredness, the immortality of the soul, prayer to Mary and the saints, the teaching that Jesus saves us in our sins, that the Sabbath was done away with at the cross, the so-called secret rapture, and the teaching that the book of Revelation deals primarily with events during the first century or else that it mostly deals with events that happen after the rapture, etc. I also believe that an important part of the truth is telling people why the Jesuits were organized, which was for the purpose of undoing everything that Protestantism has accomplished. Of course we should always be careful to teach the truth with love, but we dare not allow fear of giving offense to keep us from telling the truth clearly as it is in Jesus. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 12, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2006 Quote: Nicodema said: Quote: John317 said: ...and also spend at least a month doing more than a superficial study on the Jesuits. Jim Your "passion" for this subject is obvious by the voluminous nature of your posts and your urgent tone, but kindly refrain from making presumptuous statements concerning the extent of other people's knowledge. You simply have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER how much I have or have not read about the Jesuits. I happen to have read Great Controversy cover to cover, and various sections of its latter half over and over on several occasions. I also happen to have read books by Malachi Martin. The fact that I do not feel compelled to formulate or adopt a conspiracy-theory perspective on the prospect of Jesuits literally slipping into the cracks and slithering between the nooks and crannies of the SDA church as a result does not mean I am unfamiliar with that material. It simply means I have additionally examined the fruits of promulgating such theories and found them sorely wanting, and unworthy of my attention. All I have said is that if you are familiar with the history of the Jesuits and have read what Ellen White says about them and about the intentions of the Roman Catholic Church, we should not be surprised if they have infiltrated the SDA church or other organizations for the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican. It should be kept in mind that the Jesuit were first founded as a result of the Protestant Reformation and as part of the counterreformation movement within the Roman Catholic Church designed for the express purpose of defeating the Reformation. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Wheat, tares, harvest. I prefer to follow the Lord's counsel and set my mind on things that are productive. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Quote: All I have said is that if you are familiar with the history of the Jesuits and have read what Ellen White says about them and about the intentions of the Roman Catholic Church, we should not be surprised if they have infiltrated the SDA church or other organizations for the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican. It should be kept in mind that the Jesuit were first founded as a result of the Protestant Reformation and as part of the counterreformation movement within the Roman Catholic Church designed for the express purpose of defeating the Reformation. Jim A couple of years ago, I went to a forum with a very rude catholic priest on it. He liked to put down the protestant doctrines and did so with relish. When he found out that I was a SDA, he railed against Adventists with comments like "You Adventists are so concerned with us Catholics. You think that we would subvert your denomonation..What a self centered egotistical offshoot You guys aren't even on the radar. Other protestant denomonations are of more of a concern than you are!" Now, wether he was telling the truth or not, I have no idea. but his accusation of us being self-centered egotistical in believing that the Jesuits are infultration the church was right on the money. For us to be concerned more about the Jesuits than about Christ can only mean that we are more concerned about man than about God. It has beem my observation that if we are more concerned about Christ, then about anyting else [the devil or catholics or whatever] God will defend us more than we will ever know.....I tend to believe that He will honor us if we are more concerned about Him.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 12, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2006 Quote: John317 said: I pointed out pages in the Great Controversy that show that the Jesuits were founded with the purpose of defeating and overcoming Protestantism This is a misconception easily dispelled. Here is an objective statement concerning the actual purpose behind the founding of the Society of Jesus: On August 15, 1534, Ignatius (born Iñigo López de Loyola) and six other students (Francis Xavier, a fellow Basque, Alfonso Salmeron, James Lainez, and Nicholas Bobadilla, Spaniards, Peter Faber from France and Simon Rodrigues, a Portuguese) met in Montmartre outside Paris, probably near the modern Chapel of St Denys, Rue Antoinette, and binding themselves by a vow of poverty and chastity, founded the Society of Jesus – to "enter upon hospital and missionary work in Jerusalem, or to go without questioning wherever the pope might direct". The name "Jesuit" is actually a perjorative term which the Society gradually came to accept as complimentary: The term "Jesuit" (of fifteenth-century origin, meaning one who used too frequently or appropriated the name of Jesus), was first applied to the Society in reproach (1544-52), and was never employed by its founder, though members and friends of the Society in time accepted the name in its positive meaning. The notion that the Jesuit Order was founded specifically to defeat and overcome Protestantism is a false argument based upon timing and the success of the Society in establishing colleges and sending forth Catholic missionaries to all parts of the world: The Jesuits were founded just before the Counter-Reformation, a movement whose purpose was to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within and to counter the Protestant Reformers, whose teachings were spreading throughout Catholic Europe. As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience both to scripture and also Roman Catholic doctrine. (emphasis mine). Note that the Jesuit Order was founded prior to the counter-reformation. Note that the aims and purposes you have ascribed to the Jesuits are actually those of the counter-reformation itself. As for their service to the RCC, naturally a Catholic Society is going to encourage loyalty to the Catholic doctrine and faith. We certainly would not expect a Baptist Society, for example, to encourage people to become Lutherans or Presbyterians; why should we expect a Catholic Society to NOT work for the interest of its "mother church?" Compare what is written above with what Ellen White wrote in the book Great Controversy concerning the Jesuits. The above writer has given us what is essentially the Catholic view of the Jesuits. Please read GC 571-581, 234-236. Also read the chapter in Wylie's History of the Protestant Reformation in the Sixteenth Century dealing with the founding of the Jesuits. Quoting pages 234, 235 of the Great Controversy: "Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery...To combat these [Protestant] forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume...it was their studied aim to secure wealth and poweer, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy...It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of state, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites... The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery..." Now read GC 571- 581 where we are told 1) that the Roman Catholic Church has not fundamentally changed in its teachings or in its objectives; 2) that the papacy is seeking to regain everything it lost as a result of the Protestant Reformation; 3) that if it could, the Roman Church would persecute the same as it did before; 4) that "history testifies of her artful and persistent efforts to insinuate herself into the affairs of nations; and having gained a foothold, to further her own aims, even at the ruin of princes and people"; and 5) "the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men...Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike..." I choose to accept the testimony of Ellen White when it comes to understanding what the Jesuits are all about. After all, God gave her visions of these matters, did He not? (See pages x and xi in the Introduction to the Great Controversy.) Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 12, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2006 Quote: Neil D said: Quote: A couple of years ago, I went to a forum with a very rude catholic priest on it. He liked to put down the protestant doctrines and did so with relish. When he found out that I was a SDA, he railed against Adventists with comments like "You Adventists are so concerned with us Catholics. You think that we would subvert your denomonation..What a self centered egotistical offshoot You guys aren't even on the radar. Other protestant denomonations are of more of a concern than you are!" Now, wether he was telling the truth or not, I have no idea. but his accusation of us being self-centered egotistical in believing that the Jesuits are infultration the church was right on the money. For us to be concerned more about the Jesuits than about Christ can only mean that we are more concerned about man than about God. It has beem my observation that if we are more concerned about Christ, then about anyting else [the devil or catholics or whatever] God will defend us more than we will ever know.....I tend to believe that He will honor us if we are more concerned about Him.... Neil, I don't know of anyone who is "more concerned about the Jesuits than about Christ," as you put it. But it is absurd to think that we should not know our enemy, Satan, and the organizations he uses in his war against God. And yes, the Jesuits are among those Satan has used and continues to use in his war against God. (Don't take my word for it-- take Ellen White's. See GC 234, 235.) Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Quote: Neil, I don't know of anyone who is "more concerned about the Jesuits than about Christ," as you put it. Oh, it's very easy to find those individuals, Jim...especially here, on C/A....You look up a person, and see what type of posts he puts out...You can classify it very esily...If s/he is more interested in talking about things [ie catholics, Satan, "the devil's plans", rebuttals where there is a "lord it over' another person, ect], you can be sure that Christ is not upper most in his/her mind. If you see posts where someone takes the time to be helpful, explain things, definitions, philosophys, teachings of ideas, or even more interested in expanding relationship on the thread...then I would tend to think tha this person has evidence of Christ in them.... Quote: But it is absurd to think that we should not know our enemy, Satan, and the organizations he uses in his war against God. And yes, the Jesuits are among those Satan has used and continues to use in his war against God. (Don't take my word for it-- take Ellen White's. See GC 234, 235.) Jim I see.....You advocate knowing the enemy more so than knowing the King of the Universe, who has an inside track on the enemy....? Ok, I see... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Wheat, tares, harvest. I prefer to follow the Lord's counsel and set my mind on things that are productive. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 13, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2006 Quote: John317 said: ... and that the Catholic church today has not really changed fundamentally from what it was in Luther's time. It's goals and its fundamental teachings are identical. This is true, but again, Catholics believe Catholicism is right, so why should we expect any of that to change? We SDAs believe SDA-ism is right; we're not about to stop pursuing the goals or alter the fundamental teachings of the SDA church either. It's just the way things ARE when one embraces a faith. There's nothing any more sinister about it when Catholics do it for Catholicism than when Baptists do it for Baptist doctrine or SDAs do it for SDA-ism. It's just the way humans behave when they believe their faith is the right way and they are loyal to it. You evidently forget that the Roman Catholic Church consists primarily of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, and its other bishops and the Cardinals. You also forget or ignore the fact that the the Papal system, and the Roman Catholic Church, was responsible for the deaths of between 20 to 50 million people who died because they would not submit to the teachings and practices of Pope and Councils. Neither the Baptist nor SDA churches have ever had people murdered for teaching contrary to their doctrines. Popes and Councils, not the laity, are the ones who determine Catholic doctrine, faith and practice. The Catholic laity are taught to follow the lead of the Pope and those in the leadership at the Vatican. The Roman Catholic Church, unlike the SDA church, is most definitely not democratic. They are told what to believe by Popes and Church Councils. Most Catholics do not study the Bible in order to know what the truth is, because for Catholics the truth is Church tradition and Scripture. They are fed doctrine through the catechism, the primary teaching mechanism. They add to the commandments of God the commandments of the Church and they believe both are necessary for salvation. Quote: John317 said: I also point out some books that tell the truth about the Jesuits, books written by a man who was once a Jesuit professor in a prestegious Jesuit university. Key words: was once. I'm not sitting in judgment on Malachi Martin here in particular; just issuing a general warning that the pattern of the disgruntled departee from a church, cult, faith, organization, etc. is well known. They tend to dish up the dirt and paint everything in the worst light, casting aspersions on wherever they "left from" in order to distance themselves from their past and justify their departure as something noble rather than dissent or disloyalty (as no doubt such doubts occasionally haunt their decision, and are part and parcel with questioning "why on earth was I ever a part of THAT???") So this is not to say that everyone who leaves an organization is trying to spread lies or smear campaign against it; rather that recognizing typical human patterns of dealing with transition can afford us some objectivity here that we would not otherwise have. It is tempting to view the departee as the "Ultimate Expert" on the matters he or she has left behind, but a one-sided story never offers an objective view. I am not asking anyone to take Malachi Martin's mere word for it. What he says is well documented. Read the evidence. Besides, Malachi Martin was a faithful Catholic all his life, right up to his dying day. He did not believe any of the things he said was opposed to the Catholic Church. He was a supporter of the Pope and of the Church laws. Therefore, what you say about disgruntled departees has nothing whatever to do with Malachi Martin. He was a well-known authority on the Catholic Church and was acknowledged as such by the Catholic Church and the Vatican themselves. I am not asking you to read a disgruntled departee. Quote: John317 said: Yes, I have been studying the Bible and the writings of Ellen White ever since I was baptized into Christ and into God's remnant, commandment keeping church in 1973. ... I confess openly and unashamedly I love the book Great Controversy-- next to the Bible, it is the book I read most. ... [other books] have been replaced by the Bible and the writings of God's prophet, Ellen G. White. I am not at all ashamed to say that I do believe in the Bible and, therefore, in the writing of Ellen White. ... Today I am glad to accept ridicule also by people who claim to be members of the SDA and who think I have too much faith in the wonderful, God-given writings of Ellen White. Where on earth is all of THAT coming from? I must have missed something because I have not seen ANYWHERE on this thread where anyone has "ridiculed" you for reading Ellen White or having "faith" in her writings. The problem I see here is not Ellen White nor what is written in the Great Controversy. The problem is that you have a thick layer of nonsense attached to certain passages in the Great Controversy which regurgitate themselves in your thinking whenever you revisit said passages, and cause you to mistakenly believe the content of this thick layer of nonsense is therefore inherent in the text of GC itself. As anyone who reads the same passages and does NOT feel compelled to your conclusions can testify, that content is NOT there. You are doing eisegesis; that is, you are reading INTO that passage what you imagine it to "actually" mean above and beyond what it is actually saying. My answer is simply that you ought to read pages 234, 235, 563 to 616 of the book The Great Controversy. Pay special attention to pages 234, 235 and 571, 572, 580, 581. The pages are very clear and show without question that I am not speaking nonsense or reading into Ellen White's writings what is not there. I appeal to the evidence of what is plainly written on those pages. I'd like to add two points: 1) I never said that anyone who contradicts me must be a Jesuit, nor does that idea ever come to mind. In fact, I have never said that Jesuits have infiltrated the SDA church. I only said that if they have infiltrated, we should not be surprised, given their history and the things that are written about them in the Great Controversy. 2) I never said that people on this particular board have ridiculed me for believing in Ellen White. I was referring to the fact that Adventists who study her and put their faith in what she writes do get ridiculed these days by Adventists who don't believe in her. And anyone who reads the posts knows there are plenty of SDA and former SDA who don't accept her as a prophet of God. If you are SDA who use Ellen White as authority, you can expect many in the church to reject that authority. Those are facts. I don't think I am saying anything that should astonish anyone here. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 13, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2006 Quote: Neil D said: Quote: Neil, I don't know of anyone who is "more concerned about the Jesuits than about Christ," as you put it. Oh, it's very easy to find those individuals, Jim...especially here, on C/A....You look up a person, and see what type of posts he puts out...You can classify it very esily...If s/he is more interested in talking about things [ie catholics, Satan, "the devil's plans", rebuttals where there is a "lord it over' another person, ect], you can be sure that Christ is not upper most in his/her mind. If you see posts where someone takes the time to be helpful, explain things, definitions, philosophys, teachings of ideas, or even more interested in expanding relationship on the thread...then I would tend to think tha this person has evidence of Christ in them.... Quote: But it is absurd to think that we should not know our enemy, Satan, and the organizations he uses in his war against God. And yes, the Jesuits are among those Satan has used and continues to use in his war against God. (Don't take my word for it-- take Ellen White's. See GC 234, 235.) Jim I see.....You advocate knowing the enemy more so than knowing the King of the Universe, who has an inside track on the enemy....? Ok, I see... Neil, You are putting words in my mouth I never said. I never said one should "know the enemy more so than knowing the King of the Universe," nor did I imply that. Those are your words, not mine. I am saying no more than the Bible itself says, when it says we should know who Satan is and know what his stratagies are. That is all I am saying and all I ever did say in any of these posts. Read what both the Bible and Ellen White say about knowing these things. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Quote: Neil, You are putting words in my mouth I never said. I never said one should "know the enemy more so than knowing the King of the Universe," nor did I imply that. Those are your words, not mine. I am saying no more than the Bible itself says, when it says we should know who Satan is and know what his stratagies are. That is all I am saying and all I ever did say in any of these posts. Read what both the Bible and Ellen White say about knowing these things. Jim You don't have to...When one says that he likes the shapes of pears, and displays the names of different varieties of pears, and knows thier varied colors at different times of the year, knows thier texture when canned, knows that different canning processes affect different textures in the resulting processes, knows which sweetner gives the best flavors, ... you get the general impression that the person is an expert on pears. I just prefer to be known as an expert on Jesus, aka disciple, rather than an expert of the enemies of Jesus.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Wheat, tares, harvest. I prefer to follow the Lord's counsel and set my mind on things that are productive, uplifting, and edifying. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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