Wingnut Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: Wingnut, since Samie thinks you understand him, would you answer two questions for me: According to Samie: 1.What does it mean to believe in Christ? 2.Is believing in Christ necessary? If so, for what purpose? Pnattmbtc, I would be happy to oblige. Second question first. Believing in Christ is optional. Here was my question and his answer. I said that this is what Samie believes "Being good certainly does not require belief in Jesus, though this is optional." to which he replied... If you know it is bad NOT to believe in Him, then it is good to believe in Him instead. Do you see how optional belief in Christ is? Christ is important only if YOU think he is important. The first question then becomes easy. Believing in Christ is whatever you believe it to be, and its importance is whatever importance YOU place on it. There are no absolutes. Belief in Christ is only necessary for those who have heard of Christ and believe that belief is necessary. Putting it this way, it almost sounds like preaching the Gospel puts an extra stumbling block in the path to eternal life since now Christians have something to feel guilty about, viz the state of their belief/faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Thanks! Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 23 minutes ago, Samie said: You do keep requirements deliberately vague, letting every one's conscience be their guide. What is in man’s conscience is what God wrote in him. So man has no free will, no freedom to educate his conscience, every thought was cast in stone from the foundation of the world. Or better yet, let's blame God for what he wrote into our conscience. Shakespeare was right that the whole world is a stage and we are merely actors. Its all scripted. Its all scripted. God knew from the start I would write that twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 17 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Of course we are in agreement with my type of overcomer, since you have set the bar so low that everyone is an overcomer. Then you did not yet fully understand me in this area. The fact that many will be blotted out from the BOL is proof enough that many are non-overcomers. Name one person on earth today whom you would not call an overcomer, and I will point out that he has overcome something That’s where we part ways as far as overcoming is concerned. The full definition of an overcomer is one whose name Christ will not blot out from the BOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 It's 1am where I live so thanks for the chat, and goodnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 1 minute ago, Samie said: Of course we are in agreement with my type of overcomer, since you have set the bar so low that everyone is an overcomer. Then you did not yet fully understand me in this area. The fact that many will be blotted out from the BOL is proof enough that many are non-overcomers. Name one person on earth today whom you would not call an overcomer, and I will point out that he has overcome something That’s where we part ways as far as overcoming is concerned. The full definition of an overcomer is one whose name Christ will not blot out from the BOL. This looks like a circle to me. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Quote The first question then becomes easy. Believing in Christ is whatever you believe it to be, and its importance is whatever importance YOU place on it. There are no absolutes. Looks like the same thing is true for overcoming. Except that if you're wrong in what you think it is, your name is blotted out. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 5 minutes ago, Wingnut said: So man has no free will, no freedom to educate his conscience, every thought was cast in stone from the foundation of the world. No. Man has freewill. Or better yet, let's blame God for what he wrote into our conscience. No, I won’t. Shakespeare was right that the whole world is a stage and we are merely actors. Its all scripted. Its all scripted. God knew from the start I would write that twice. He knew, Yes. But it’s you who decided to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Looks like the same thing is true for overcoming. Except that if you're wrong in what you think it is, your name is blotted out. No. I believe we are held accountable for what we know, not with what we don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Just now, Samie said: No. I believe we are held accountable for what we know, not with what we don't know. What about things we don't know because we choose not to believe them? For example, if someone tells you that you need to believe in Christ so that you will not perish but have eternal life (this is John 3:16). Now that you have been told this, are you accountable if you choose not to believe in Christ? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Quote He knew, Yes. But it’s you who decided to do it. This is mutually contradictory, but this is another discussion. However, I did provide a proof of this earlier in this thread. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Here's a different proof that that this is self-contradictory (i.e. "He knew, Yes. But it’s you who decided to do it."). "Free will", as Arminians (as opposed to Calvinists) understand the term, requires that I determine what I will do, and it is not determined until I determine it. So any future act I will commit must be undermined until I determine it. But if God knew from eternity what I would do, then it has been determined from eternity. Only not by me, since I didn't exist. This is a contradiction, leading back to Wingnut's point that our "free will" in this case is an illusion. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: What about things we don't know because we choose not to believe them? The fact that we choose not to believe is proof enough we know that which we choose not to believe. For example, if someone tells you that you need to believe in Christ so that you will not perish but have eternal life (this is John 3:16). Now that you have been told this, are you accountable if you choose not to believe in Christ? Yes, provided the person fully understands it. I may have explained everything about Newton’s first law of motion to my 5 year old grandchild, but I would be a fool expecting him to fully understand me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Here's a different proof that that this is self-contradictory (i.e. "He knew, Yes. But it’s you who decided to do it."). "Free will", as Arminians (as opposed to Calvinists) understand the term, requires that I determine what I will do, and it is not determined until I determine it. So any future act I will commit must be undermined until I determine it. But if God knew from eternity what I would do, then it has been determined from eternity. No. Foreknowing is different from casting it in stone. Only not by me, since I didn't exist. This is a contradiction, leading back to Wingnut's point that our "free will" in this case is an illusion. No, for me, there is no contradiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 5 minutes ago, Samie said: Here's a different proof that that this is self-contradictory (i.e. "He knew, Yes. But it’s you who decided to do it."). "Free will", as Arminians (as opposed to Calvinists) understand the term, requires that I determine what I will do, and it is not determined until I determine it. So any future act I will commit must be undermined until I determine it. But if God knew from eternity what I would do, then it has been determined from eternity. No. Foreknowing is different from casting it in stone. Only not by me, since I didn't exist. This is a contradiction, leading back to Wingnut's point that our "free will" in this case is an illusion. No, for me, there is no contradiction. It's a logical contradiction. It's not an issue of it being cast in stone, but of there being a logical contradiction, which is that if God knows the act I will commit to be determined, then it is determined, and it is determined before I existed, therefore I did not determine it; and there's the contradiction. However, this is a bit difficult to follow. The book proof is easier. I'll reproduce it for your convenience. It's a proof by contradiction. We start with an assumption, which will lead to a contradiction, which proved the assumption is false. Imagine things are as you suggest. Then God could commission an angel to write everything that will happen ahead of time in a book, "The Book Of Everything" we'll call it. The angel shows you the book. Sure enough, the book says you are looking at it. You determine to do the following: Look at what the book says you will be doing in one hour. If it says you will be looking at it, you won't look at it. If it says you aren't looking at it, you will look at it. This is a contradiction either way. Therefore the assumption is false. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: It's a logical contradiction. It's not an issue of it being cast in stone, but of there being a logical contradiction, which is that if God knows the act I will commit to be determined, then it is determined, and it is determined before I existed, therefore I did not determine it; and there's the contradiction. However, this is a bit difficult to follow. The book proof is easier. I'll reproduce it for your convenience. It's a proof by contradiction. We start with an assumption, which will lead to a contradiction, which proved the assumption is false. Imagine things are as you suggest. Then God could commission an angel to write everything that will happen ahead of time in a book, "The Book Of Everything" we'll call it. The angel shows you the book. Sure enough, the book says you are looking at it. You determine to do the following: Look at what the book says you will be doing in one hour. If it says you will be looking at it, you won't look at it. If it says you aren't looking at it, you will look at it. This is a contradiction either way. Therefore the assumption is false. No, there's none. Let's say that it was really God Who determined what you are to do in an hour. Then here goes: If it says you will be looking at it, you won't look at it but God will hold your eyes open and tell the angel to show you the book. If it says you aren't looking at it, you will look at it but God will hide the Book you won't see it. There are far more difficult things God has done than merely holding your eyes open or hiding your Book of Everything. And your assumption that the assumption is false, is false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 58 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Pnattmbtc, I would be happy to oblige. Second question first. Believing in Christ is optional. Here was my question and his answer. I said that this is what Samie believes "Being good certainly does not require belief in Jesus, though this is optional." to which he replied... If you know it is bad NOT to believe in Him, then it is good to believe in Him instead. Do you see how optional belief in Christ is? Christ is important only if YOU think he is important. The first question then becomes easy. Believing in Christ is whatever you believe it to be, and its importance is whatever importance YOU place on it. There are no absolutes. Belief in Christ is only necessary for those who have heard of Christ and believe that belief is necessary. Putting it this way, it almost sounds like preaching the Gospel puts an extra stumbling block in the path to eternal life since now Christians have something to feel guilty about, viz the state of their belief/faith. No, there's no extra stumbling block. I believe God will only allow certain truths to be made known to a person at specific points in time when the truth would best benefit the man. He is the best Father, isn't He? This is called growing up in Christ. One example is the Ethiopian eunuch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Quote No, there's none. Let's say that it was really God Who determined what you are to do in an hour. Then here goes: If it says you will be looking at it, you won't look at it but God will hold your eyes open and tell the angel to show you the book. If it says you aren't looking at it, you will look at it but God will hide the Book you won't see it. There are far more difficult things God has done than merely holding your eyes open or hiding your Book of Everything. And your assumption that the assumption is false, is false. The whole point of the argument is to show that if we assume that three is a fixed future which God can peer into and see, then man doesn't have free will. If you assert that it is God who determined what we do, then you're already agreed with the argument. Also, if you are going to assert there isn't a contradiction, you'd have to offer some explanation as to why not. Say the book said you would be holding your breath, so you decide not to. If God does something to counteract your intent to not hold your breath, then you don't have free will, by either the Arminian or Calvinist definition. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: The whole point of the argument is to show that if we assume that three is a fixed future which God can peer into and see, then man doesn't have free will. If you assert that it is God who determined what we do, then you're already agreed with the argument. Also, if you are going to assert there isn't a contradiction, you'd have to offer some explanation as to why not. Being forced to do something against your will is hardly a proof that we have free will! God knows the future, but He did not fix it. Because if He did, then we have no free will. Again, foreknowing is different from fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Quote God knows the future, but He did not fix it. Because if He did, then we have no free will. Again, foreknowing is different from fixing. God doesn't have to be the one who fixes it. The point is if it is fixed, *that's* the problem. You can't have a fixed future and free will both. One or the other. The book argument is a demonstration of the contradiction involved. So was the other post, that if the future is fixed, that means our future actions are fixed, before we fixed them. If we didn't fix them, then we don't have free will. Here's another way. If we fix our future actions, then the future is not fixed. If the future is not fixed, then God cannot see the future as fixed, because God sees things as they are, and if the future isn't fixed, then God will not see it as fixed. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 We'd better get back to topic. Let's leave the future to God Who alone knows what tomorrow has in store for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 5 minutes ago, Samie said: We'd better get back to topic. Let's leave the future to God Who alone knows what tomorrow has in store for us. He knows conditionally what the future holds in store for us. Which is why He implores us "Make friends with God!" If we choose to make friends with God, then God knows the future portends good things, but if we choose not to make friends with God, then it portends bad things. How do we make friends with God? By believing in Christ! This is the Gospel, and this is Christianity. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 8 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: He knows conditionally what the future holds in store for us. Which is why He implores us "Make friends with God!" If we choose to make friends with God, then God knows the future portends good things, but if we choose not to make friends with God, then it portends bad things. How do we make friends with God? By believing in Christ! This is the Gospel, and this is Christianity. I had addressed this but which you may have missed. Here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 If you're talking about this: Quote According to you, believing in Christ is a must before one can overcome, but Scriptures are replete with OT characters who were overcomers but have no personal knowledge of Christ. You counter this fact by saying that "people may not know they are believing in Christ, but they are". Yet this seems to be not in accord with what Paul meant when he asked: "how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?". Looks like believing in Christ occurs after one has heard about Him. And since the OT men of faith, did not personally hear about Christ, then they could have not personally believed in Christ, yet they were overcomers. I responded to this. I pointed out your statement that the OT men of faith did not personally believe in Christ was wrong. I cited Hebrews 11. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Also remember that Abraham is the father of all who believe. This is Galatians 3. Also in Galatians 3 is the explanation that the promises to Abraham are to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ; and if you believe in Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. This means that all , at any time, who have received the Gospel promises, have done so by believing in Christ. This is Paul's whole argument in Galatians 3. (he makes the same argument in Romans) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.