8thdaypriest Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 16 minutes ago, Samie said: I know this is directed to Pnatt who is now busy sorting out why he denied having given a definition of faith as the ability to respond. But I just would like to answer you that it allows one to become a believer when presented with the evidence. But one is NOT saved UNTIL he/she becomes a believer. It is at the moment of believing, that one is regarded by the LORD - as "saved". This is where we differ Samie. You believe the person was saved BEFORE he/she believes. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 21 minutes ago, Samie said: I know this is directed to Pnatt who is now busy sorting out why he denied having given a definition of faith as the ability to respond. But I just would like to answer you that it allows one to become a believer when presented with the evidence. 4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: But one is NOT saved UNTIL he/she becomes a believer. It is at the moment of believing, that one is regarded by the LORD - as "saved". This is where we differ Samie. You believe the person was saved BEFORE he/she believes. The measure of faith given to every man (Rom 12:3) allows one to become a believer when presented with the evidence. Allowing one to become a believer connotes that the person is not yet a believer when given that which allows him to become a believer. This tells me that the person had been made spiritually alive, since he is now able to do the spiritual act of believing. And every man had been made spiritually alive through Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4). Being in Him, one is in the saved condition. This occurs in what I call the first dimension of the gospel or the past tense of salvation. To believe is to overcome the evil of unbelief, and this occurs in the present tense of salvation or the 2nd dimension of the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 What I'm saying is the fact that people CAN believe is proof enough they are spiritually alive, because I believe that "believing" is a spiritual act doable only by the spiritually alive. And to be spiritually alive means one is attached to Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4), because He said that separate from Him we can do NOTHING. And to be attached to Christ, for me means, one is part of His Body, and hence one is in the saved condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 I will still be driving around 50 miles to Sabbath worship services, so see you folks later. Happy Sabbath to all of you, brethren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 1 hour ago, Samie said: So what's your point in writing "This is incorrect" in response to what I wrote "Faith is the ability to respond" when you are now admitting that indeed you gave one definition of faith as the ability to respond? My point in writing "this is incorrect" was that you were incorrect, which you were, for the reasons I pointed out. I don't think you read very well, for the reasons I pointed out. You don't seem to know how you should read what others write assuming your purpose is to understand what they are trying to communicate. To repeat myself, you should: 1.Ask what the person actually say. 2.Ask what the person actually meant. If you cannot understand that a sentence beginning with the phrase "If faith is a response" can ONLY mean that faith is a response, I can only conclude that you don't read very well. Also evidence that you don't read well is you're saying this: Quote So what's your point in writing "This is incorrect" in response to what I wrote "Faith is the ability to respond" when you are now admitting that indeed you gave one definition of faith as the ability to respond? I'm not doing this. Please quit misrepresenting what I'm saying. You misrepresent Paul and John for the same reason you misrepresent me. You have ideas of what you want or think people should be saying, and impose your own ideas into what they are saying rather than read what they've actually said, and, more importantly, try to understand what they are saying. I've spent many posts, with many paragraphs, explaining what I understand "faith" to mean. I've explained Luke 7 in detail, and other passages. If you don't understand what I believe "faith" to mean after having posted all this, I can only conclude that you don't read well. I've given some suggestions on how to improve, which is primarily to ask what the author is intending to communicate. If you did this, you wouldn't have any trouble understanding what I've been saying (and it would help in understanding Paul and John too!) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Quote The measure of faith given to every man (Rom 12:3) allows one to become a believer when presented with the evidence. This has nothing to do with Paul's point in Romans 12, but it's OK to assert that God has given people the ability to become a believer when presented with evidence. Quote Allowing one to become a believer connotes that the person is not yet a believer when given that which allows him to become a believer. Yes. Quote This tells me that the person had been made spiritually alive, since he is now able to do the spiritual act of believing. No. One becomes spiritually alive when one receives Christ. For example: Quote 12 Some, however, did receive him and believed in him; so he gave them the right to become God's children. Quote And every man had been made spiritually alive through Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4). Being in Him, one is in the saved condition. Which happens when on receives Christ, by believing in Him, as John 1:12 says. Quote This occurs in what I call the first dimension of the gospel or the past tense of salvation. To believe is to overcome the evil of unbelief, and this occurs in the present tense of salvation or the 2nd dimension of the gospel. There is no Scripture which defines believing as overcoming the evil of unbelief. Unbelief should be defined in terms of believing (of course!), not the other way around. What does it mean to believe? That's a question one should be asking. The New Testament speaks of believing and faith over 500 times, and of the book of life a couple of times. Why would one subjugate the over 500 texts to the just a couple? And if one is led to conclude that John needed to be correct, why does one persist rather than recognize that there's an idea here that needs to be corrected? 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 19 hours ago, Samie said: The measure of faith given to every man (Rom 12:3) allows one to become a believer when presented with the evidence. Allowing one to become a believer connotes that the person is not yet a believer when given that which allows him to become a believer. This tells me that the person had been made spiritually alive, since he is now able to do the spiritual act of believing. And every man had been made spiritually alive through Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4). Being in Him, one is in the saved condition. This occurs in what I call the first dimension of the gospel or the past tense of salvation. To believe is to overcome the evil of unbelief, and this occurs in the present tense of salvation or the 2nd dimension of the gospel. ALIVE vs DEAD When Lazarus "heard" the voice of Jesus - was he "alive" or "dead" ? He was DEAD. Then HOW could he "hear" and "respond" by getting up from the stone bench in the Tomb and stumbling forward to the mouth of the Tomb (encumbered by the "grave clothes"). It wasn't because he was already physically "alive". At the moment Jesus shouted the command, "Lazarus, come forth", God the Father made it POSSIBLE for Lazarus to respond. God the Father (by His Spirit) jump-started Lazarus' brain and heart, and healed his body. The Father restored Lazarus to life. If we apply that same principle to spiritual life, then one is spiritually DEAD, before the Father (thru Christ) infuses one with spiritual LIFE, enabling him to respond to the "call" of Christ. Wingnut 1 Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: If we apply that same principle to spiritual life, then one is spiritually DEAD, before the Father (thru Christ) infuses one with spiritual LIFE, enabling him to respond to the "call" of Christ. You are correct in your analysis of how Lazarus was called forth to life. And that is an exact parallel to how people were made spiritually alive. Did Lazarus do anything to PROMPT the Father to infuse him with life through Christ? Did the Father and the Son wait for Lazarus to first "believe" before calling him forth from the tomb? Lazarus was there in the tomb helpless, and can do NOTHING. So with us when we were made spiritually alive. We were still spiritually dead when God through Christ fashioned us into the Body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). We were part of His Body when He died; when the Head was resurrected, we were resurrected TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2:4-6), born again into a living hope of eternal life (1 Pet 1:3). But preachers now teach that people must do SOMETHING first while yet dead, tantamount to saying Lazarus did something first that prompted the Father to infuse him with life through Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 7, 2015 Members Share Posted November 7, 2015 17 minutes ago, Samie said: Did the Father and the Son wait for Lazarus to first "believe" before calling him forth from the tomb? No, because he already believed before he died!! 8thdaypriest 1 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 A big problem here seems to be in understanding what it means to be spiritually alive. The following are synonymns: 1.Spiritually alive 2.Converted. 3.Born again. 4.Justified by faith. This happens when one believes in Christ, as in the following: Quote 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10) John says that those who believe in Christ's name, who receive Him, are those who become sons of God (John 1:12). This is another synonym to the above. The magic happens when we believe. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 52 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: A big problem here seems to be in understanding what it means to be spiritually alive. The following are synonymns: John says that those who believe in Christ's name, who receive Him, are those who become sons of God (John 1:12). This is another synonym to the above. The magic happens when we believe. (quote)mag·ic ˈmajik/ noun noun: magic 1. the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. "do you believe in magic?" synonyms: sorcery, witchcraft, wizardry, necromancy, enchantment, the supernatural, occultism, the occult, black magic, the black arts, voodoo, hoodoo, mojo, shamanism; More charm, hex, spell, jinx; pixie dust, fairy dust "do you believe in magic?" mysterious tricks, such as making things disappear and appear again, performed as entertainment. synonyms: conjuring tricks, sleight of hand, legerdemain, illusion, prestidigitation "he does magic at children's parties" a quality that makes something seem removed from everyday life, especially in a way that gives delight. "the magic of the theater" synonyms: allure, attraction, excitement, fascination, charm, glamour "the magic of the stage" informal something that has a delightfully unusual quality. "their seaside town is pure magic" (unquote) It would seem "magic" is not in God's storehouse of gifts for the believer, rather in the enemy of souls. …18Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. 19And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing......Acts 19 God is Love! Jesus saves!..... Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 As with many words, "magic" has more than one meaning. For example: "Something that has a delightfully unusual quality" (God's storehouse has plenty of these!) The phrase "when the magic happens" is a common one, and really has nothing to do with "magic", which can be easily seen by observing its usage e.g. " During this time, my body began adapting to the low amounts of carbohydrates began consuming stored energy from fat cells. That's when the magic happens… (something at random from Google). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 6 hours ago, phkrause said: No, because he already believed before he died!! And using your logic, Mary, Lazarus' sister, being herself a believer, God brought back to life likewise, the week she died!!?? But back to the issue. The issue is whether Lazarus did SOMETHING while dead that prompted the Father to bring him back to life. And the answer is none. The Father did not require Lazarus to do something first so He can bring him back to life. How can God the Father - being the best father - require his dead child Lazarus to first do something He knew Lazarus is not able to do? But most preachers require people who they consider spiritually dead to first believe so God can make them spiritually alive!!! And that is the brand of gospel the world has for centuries known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: . . . The magic happens when we believe. And we're back to square one. How can one, while dead, believe, so the magic can take place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: A big problem here seems to be in understanding what it means to be spiritually alive. The following are synonymns: 1.Spiritually alive 2.Converted. 3.Born again. 4.Justified by faith. This happens when one believes in Christ, as in the following: John says that those who believe in Christ's name, who receive Him, are those who become sons of God (John 1:12). This is another synonym to the above. The magic happens when we believe. Saying the magic happens when we believe is a great way of putting it. Those in whom the "magic" actually happens, are called "chosen". Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 2 minutes ago, Samie said: And we're back to square one. How can one, while dead, believe, so the magic can take place? The process is described here: Quote How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175) Notice this part: "Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul." This is where the believer becomes spiritually alive. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 8 minutes ago, Samie said: And we're back to square one. How can one, while dead, believe, so the magic can take place? Still not answered in the quote Pnatt provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 1 minute ago, Samie said: Still not answered in the quote Pnatt provided. "Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul." Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: "Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul." So what did the spiritually dead do so the Spirit of God can produce new life in him while dead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 God extends a bit of His "magic" to call folks. His spirit begins to supernaturally suggest things to believers. This is "calling". If they accept the call they receive His Spirit inside them which prompts them for the rest of their days. This is being "chosen". The last step is walking and being prompted by the Spirit till the day we die. That is being "faithful". If not, when we turn our backs on the Spirit's promptings after having tasted the goodness of God, that is being "backslidden". To die backslidden is to die damned. At every stage of the process it requires ongoing input from God by Him actively giving us His Spirit, or "the magic". Without that, before and after, we are "dead". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 1 minute ago, Wingnut said: God extends a bit of His "magic" to call folks. His spirit begins to supernaturally suggest things to believers. This is "calling". If they accept the call they receive His Spirit inside them which prompts them for the rest of their days. This is being "chosen". How can one while dead accept the call? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Hi Samie John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The flesh profits nothing. God adds His words and His Spirit to the walking dead to give them life. 8thdaypriest and pnattmbtc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 9 minutes ago, Samie said: So what did the spiritually dead do so the Spirit of God can produce new life in him while dead? It's in the quote. Quote If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: It's in the quote. Please quote the portion, if any, that caters to my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 4 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Hi Samie John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The flesh profits nothing. God adds His words and His Spirit to the walking dead to give them life. So what did the dead do so God can make him alive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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