Samie Posted October 18, 2015 Author Share Posted October 18, 2015 I'm glad you agreed. Do you agree that the magic happens in the mind, as I put it? That is, overcoming evil with good can only happen as we make decisions, exercising our will. Our decisions will only be good decisions if we "have the mind of Christ", as Paul puts it in Philippians 2. Some versions put this as "the mindset of Christ", which is OK too, I think, as a translation. The idea is that the "kenosis", the condescension, described by Paul (he was actually quoting a well known Christian hymn, which some scholars think was the first Christian hymn) will become the mindset of the believer, who is transformed into the same image by beholding Christ. Before Christ came, Christ was communicated by "types and shadows" (Heb 1:1), and afterwards, there was the fullness of the revelation which Christ revealed, written down for us by inspired writers. The principle is the same in both cases; by beholding Christ we become changed. The cross is powerful by way of what it reveals. We are in agreement as to overcoming evil with good. I likewise believe that there are among those who have not personally heard about Christ who will be numbered among those who have overcome evil with good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 We are in agreement as to overcoming evil with good. I likewise believe that there are among those who have not personally heard about Christ who will be numbered among those who have overcome evil with good. What I wrote about, to which you said you agreed, was the process. This is what I'm most interested in hearing about. How is that the character of the unbeliever becomes transformed so that he can be happy in heaven? How does the cross fit into this? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 What I wrote about, to which you said you agreed, was the process. This is what I'm most interested in hearing about. How is that the character of the unbeliever becomes transformed so that he can be happy in heaven? How does the cross fit into this? I agreed with overcoming evil with good. I have wrote about it in many other threads since I joined CA. Overcoming is the process itself. It is the Holy Spirit that guides people; people simply respond to the guidance of the HS. It is His response that determines whether he overcomes evil or is overcome by evil. It is on the cross where people were made part of the Body of Christ. Being part of the Body of Him Who is their Strength for overcoming evil, people have His power to overcome evil with good. Through the Holy Spirit, people know whether he is an overcomer or not because God wrote His will into the person's his heart and mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I agreed with overcoming evil with good. I have wrote about it in many other threads since I joined CA. Overcoming is the process itself. It is the Holy Spirit that guides people; people simply respond to the guidance of the HS. It is His response that determines whether he overcomes evil or is overcome by evil. It is on the cross where people were made part of the Body of Christ. Being part of the Body of Him Who is their Strength for overcoming evil, people have His power to overcome evil with good. Through the Holy Spirit, people know whether he is an overcomer or not because God wrote His will into the person's his heart and mind. It appears to me you are not seeing the real purpose of the cross. The cross is involved in the process of overcoming. I'm not seeing you make the connection between the cross and overcoming. All you mention is the cross in reference to becoming a part of the body. Also, I want to make sure I'm understanding what you wrote earlier about things being applicable in time backwards and forwards. Were you saying that people like Abraham, for example, are still a part of the body of Christ because God retroactively included Abraham, since what happened at one point in time (e.g. the cross) is applicable for all times before and after? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I likewise believe that there are among those who have not personally heard about Christ who will be numbered among those who have overcome evil with good. Are you referring to the OT righteous - or the Chinese who lived BC? If the latter, please explain that to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Through the Holy Spirit, people know whether he is an overcomer or not because God wrote His will into the person's his heart and mind. Wow! I sure wish that were true! I've never seen it in myself or anyone else, but I sure wish it were true. I fear that the result of such thinking is to think one is on safe ground when instead one is firmly entrenched with the enemy of souls. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 It appears to me you are not seeing the real purpose of the cross. The cross is involved in the process of overcoming. I'm not seeing you make the connection between the cross and overcoming. All you mention is the cross in reference to becoming a part of the body. Overcoming is an act doable only by the spiritually alive. And one is only spiritually alive when part of the Body of Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4). It was only through the cross that people became part of the Body of Christ. Hence without the cross, people could not possibly become part of the Body of Christ; and apart from Christ, one is spiritually dead; and the spiritually dead cannot possibly overcome. Therefore, without the cross, no one can be an overcomer. Also, I want to make sure I'm understanding what you wrote earlier about things being applicable in time backwards and forwards. Were you saying that people like Abraham, for example, are still a part of the body of Christ because God retroactively included Abraham, since what happened at one point in time (e.g. the cross) is applicable for all times before and after? Yes, as far as God's work for the salvation of man is concerned. KJV Isaiah 46:9-10 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: NLT 2 Timothy 1:9-10 9 For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time -- to show us his grace through Christ Jesus. 10 And now he has made all of this plain to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior. He broke the power of death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the Good News. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 Are you referring to the OT righteous - or the Chinese who lived BC? If the latter, please explain that to me. All - Adam & Eve and all their descendants, who lived either BC or AD. I believe Chinese are descendants of Adam & Eve, too, just like you and me. And God does not show partiality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 Samie: Through the Holy Spirit, people know whether he is an overcomer or not because God wrote His will into the person's his heart and mind. teresaq: Wow! I sure wish that were true! I've never seen it in myself or anyone else, but I sure wish it were true. There are spiritual truths that I have yet to know of, but my not knowing about it can never make it untrue. Truth remains truth even if not known by many. Living in a far-flung area where there was no TV, we did not know that on July 21, 1969 man walked on the moon. But our not knowing about it happening that 3rd Monday of July in 1969 did not undo that "one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind". I fear that the result of such thinking is to think one is on safe ground when instead one is firmly entrenched with the enemy of souls. For me, God is such a good Father that He will do all He could to let me off the hook of the deceiver of souls. NKJ Matthew 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! NKJ Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. NKJ Psalm 27:10 When my father and my mother forsake me, Then the LORD will take care of me. NKJ Zechariah 3:1, 2 1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 It appears to me you are not seeing the real purpose of the cross. The cross is involved in the process of overcoming. I'm not seeing you make the connection between the cross and overcoming. All you mention is the cross in reference to becoming a part of the body. Samie: Overcoming is an act doable only by the spiritually alive. And one is only spiritually alive when part of the Body of Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4). It was only through the cross that people became part of the Body of Christ. Hence without the cross, people could not possibly become part of the Body of Christ; and apart from Christ, one is spiritually dead; and the spiritually dead cannot possibly overcome. Therefore, without the cross, no one can be an overcomer. I have the same comment as before. There doesn't appear to be anything tangible that the cross does in your concept of the process of overcoming. What you are describing is something like a mathematical theory that makes no practical difference if one believes it or not. Say I don't believe that the body of Christ was formed at the cross? So what? What difference does it make to my life? None. However, the light shining from the cross which reveals the love of god -- that's another story. Realizing that at the cross, I see God's character revealed in its fullness; compassion, mercy, above all, self-sacrificing love. to the point that God views others as more important to Himself than His eternal life -- Wow! That's earth shattering! This is what Paul had in mind when he wrote in 2 Cor. 5 that the love of God (the agape of God) compels us, that if he died for all (i.e., he died for me), then I must live for Him. Similarly in Gal. 2;20, "I am crucified with Christ", nevertheless I live. For what purpose? To give myself for the One who game Himself for me. Also, I want to make sure I'm understanding what you wrote earlier about things being applicable in time backwards and forwards. Were you saying that people like Abraham, for example, are still a part of the body of Christ because God retroactively included Abraham, since what happened at one point in time (e.g. the cross) is applicable for all times before and after? Samie: Yes, as far as God's work for the salvation of man is concerned. KJV Isaiah 46:9-10 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: NLT 2 Timothy 1:9-10 9 For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time -- to show us his grace through Christ Jesus. 10 And now he has made all of this plain to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior. He broke the power of death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the Good News. Why did you quote the Isaiah verse? The 2 Tim text seems more germane, but the way I understand it is that God's character has been the same for all eternity, but not it has been revealed. And this is the power of the cross, in what it reveals. A person becomes a believer, and thus a part of the body of Christ, when he believes in that which is revealed by the cross. This is how the cross reconciles those who believe the Gospel. Again, your idea that somehow a body by the cross which includes people who don't exist seems like some sort of metaphysical assertion which has not bearing on anyone's actual life. How exactly was I attached to a body 2,000 years ago when I didn't exist? And what does this mean? Can you describe this in some way other than just repeating the same phrase? I doubt it. I don't think it really means anything. (I mean the phrase "we were attached to the body of Christ at the cross). 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Samie: Living in a far-flung area where there was no TV, we did not know that on July 21, 1969 man walked on the moon. But our not knowing about it happening that 3rd Monday of July in 1969 did not undo that "one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind". This is a good obversation. Something happened which had an impact on world history, similar to the cross. And there is no doubt that the cross is the focal point of salvation history. An eloquent statement from the Spirit of Prophecy states that there is a crimson thread going from Genesis to Revelation. The story of the Great Controversy is the story of the cross. But just what is it that happened at the cross? Wherein does the cross find its power? To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (The Desire of Ages 758) The cross had significance for not only us, but the whole universe. Jesus said, "if I be lifted up, I will draw all unto me" (not simply "all men", but all). The power of the cross is in what it reveals. It reveals the truth about God, about sin, about ourselves, about Satan. Jesus said, "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Your thought regarding the lunar landing is that regardless of whether we know about, it still happened. Our ignorance does not change history or reality. And the same thing is true regarding the cross; our ignorance does not changed what happened, nor its significance. So what happened, and what is the significance of the cross? Again, it is in what it revealed, most importantly about God. This is the mystery which was hidden from times past, hidden in the sense that it had not yet been fully revealed. But now it has been, and we have the job, as Christ's ambassadors, as though Christ were speaking through us, to tell others of the story of redemption, and give them the message, "Now you be reconciled to God." Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Samie: Through the Holy Spirit, people know whether he is an overcomer or not because God wrote His will into the person's his heart and mind. I sure wish that wanting to believe something my mind devised from what I read made it so. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I sure wish that wanting to believe something my mind devised from what I read made it so. Be careful what you wish for. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 I have the same comment as before. There doesn't appear to be anything tangible that the cross does in your concept of the process of overcoming. Then you simply refuse to consider what I was explaining. Again, without the cross, no one can overcome evil and everyone is doomed. And yet to you there is nothing tangible the cross did in the process of overcoming. What you are describing is something like a mathematical theory that makes no practical difference if one believes it or not. Say I don't believe that the body of Christ was formed at the cross? So what? What difference does it make to my life? None. The earth continued revolving around the sun despite the centuries-held-belief that the sun revolves around it. Knowing that I am part of the body of Christ makes me realize that I have His power to overcome all evil. You refuse to believe it? Then you could be held accountable for not overcoming the evil of disbelief. However, the light shining from the cross which reveals the love of god -- that's another story. Realizing that at the cross, I see God's character revealed in its fullness; compassion, mercy, above all, self-sacrificing love. to the point that God views others as more important to Himself than His eternal life -- Wow! That's earth shattering! The more would it be earth-shattering to know that He fashioned us into His Body. We are now bone of His Bones, flesh of His Flesh. What mystery-revealed indeed! This is what Paul had in mind when he wrote in 2 Cor. 5 that the love of God (the agape of God) compels us, that if he died for all (i.e., he died for me), then I must live for Him. Similarly in Gal. 2;20, "I am crucified with Christ", nevertheless I live. For what purpose? To give myself for the One who game Himself for me. That people are part of the Body of Christ is what Paul had in mind when he wrote in Eph 2 that both Jews and Gentiles were reconciled into one Body when a one new man was created at the cross. That puts everyone in equal footing before God. Unlike what's happening now, many Christians view themselves as the only candidates for heaven, to the exclusion of non-Christians. Even some believe only members of their religious denomination are heaven-bound, to the exclusion of all others. I know of many of our SDA brethren - ministers not excluded - who teach that only SDA's can make it to heaven. There are even those who teach only vegans can make it there. And that's the result of the brand of gospel being popularly preached now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 Why did you quote the Isaiah verse? The 2 Tim text seems more germane, but the way I understand it is that God's character has been the same for all eternity, but not it has been revealed. And this is the power of the cross, in what it reveals. A person becomes a believer, and thus a part of the body of Christ, when he believes in that which is revealed by the cross. This is how the cross reconciles those who believe the Gospel. Then you have to explain how the spiritually dead can do SOMETHING (you say he can believe) while yet not part of the body of Christ and hence yet separate from Christ who said man can do NOTHING apart from Him. Again, your idea that somehow a body by the cross which includes people who don't exist seems like some sort of metaphysical assertion which has not bearing on anyone's actual life. How exactly was I attached to a body 2,000 years ago when I didn't exist? In EXACTLY the same way God chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5) and saved us by His grace given to us through Christ BEFORE time began (2 Tim 1:9-10). And I have cited this time and again. I doubt it. I don't think it really means anything. (I mean the phrase "we were attached to the body of Christ at the cross). It was Paul who said in Eph 2 that both Jews and Gentiles were fashioned into one body when a new man was created at the cross to reconcile them both to God. All are in the same equal footing before God. Goodbye to holier-than-thou attitude, an attitude again reared up by those who call themselves the "believers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Me: I have the same comment as before. There doesn't appear to be anything tangible that the cross does in your concept of the process of overcoming. Samie: Then you simply refuse to consider what I was explaining. Again, without the cross, no one can overcome evil and everyone is doomed. Why do you think this is the case? This is what I'm asking you to explain. All I've seen so far is some metaphysical assertion that by the cross we are attached to the body of Christ, even though we don't exist. And yet to you there is nothing tangible the cross did in the process of overcoming. ??? No, to me there is. That's what I've been explaining in the posts I've been writing. Have you not been reading them? 7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:What you are describing is something like a mathematical theory that makes no practical difference if one believes it or not. Say I don't believe that the body of Christ was formed at the cross? So what? What difference does it make to my life? None. Samie: The earth continued revolving around the sun despite the centuries-held-belief that the sun revolves around it. Knowing that I am part of the body of Christ makes me realize that I have His power to overcome all evil. This isn't useful information. What you need is a belief which is founded upon the character of God. There is nothing about the character of God here. Your conviction that you have the power needed to overcome evil should be based upon a conviction of God's character, that He loves you and wants you to overcome. *That's* why He sent His Son to die on the cross. The cross is the evidence for the character of God upon which any convictions you have should be based. You refuse to believe it? Then you could be held accountable for not overcoming the evil of disbelief. I choose to believe the truth, to the best of my ability, about God's character which has been reveled through Christ. This is what I perceive God's will to be. For example, in John 17, "to know God is life eternal ..." This is what Jesus was getting at. The only way to set and keep men right was to reveal what God is really like. 7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:However, the light shining from the cross which reveals the love of god -- that's another story. Realizing that at the cross, I see God's character revealed in its fullness; compassion, mercy, above all, self-sacrificing love. to the point that God views others as more important to Himself than His eternal life -- Wow! That's earth shattering! Samie: The more would it be earth-shattering to know that He fashioned us into His Body. We are now bone of His Bones, flesh of His Flesh. What mystery-revealed indeed! This sounds like the Catholics who assert that the priest calls the body of Christ down and we eat and drink His literal flesh and blood. It's the character of God that is all important. 7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:This is what Paul had in mind when he wrote in 2 Cor. 5 that the love of God (the agape of God) compels us, that if he died for all (i.e., he died for me), then I must live for Him. Similarly in Gal. 2;20, "I am crucified with Christ", nevertheless I live. For what purpose? To give myself for the One who game Himself for me. Samie: That people are part of the Body of Christ is what Paul had in mind when he wrote in Eph 2 that both Jews and Gentiles were reconciled into one Body when a one new man was created at the cross. To reconcile means to restore friendly relations between two parties who have been fighting. Paul explained that we were enemies in our minds, alienated from God. Therefore a revelation of the truth about God makes sense, because as we perceive the truth about God we are drawns towards Him in repentance (the goodness of God leads us to repentance), and then reconciliation can take place. Just how can you see reconcilistion happening without the party who is angry (that would be us) changing its mind? This is what repentance is. We need to stop being angry at God, which is how reconciliation takes place. The idea that reconciliation can happen unilaterally, without one of the parties even existing, is odd. Explain how this could possibly work. Samie: That puts everyone in equal footing before God. How would people not in an equal footing before God to begin with? Samie: Unlike what's happening now, many Christians view themselves as the only candidates for heaven, to the exclusion of non-Christians. Even some believe only members of their religious denomination are heaven-bound, to the exclusion of all others. I know of many of our SDA brethren - ministers not excluded - who teach that only SDA's can make it to heaven. There are even those who teach only vegans can make it there. It's too bad if this it true, but I don't see the relevance to what I've been writing. I certainly haven't suggested anything like this. I've been writing that we are reconciled to God as we see His love and character revealed through Christ. Samie: And that's the result of the brand of gospel being popularly preached now. I think your generalization here may be too broad and off center, but this seems besides the point of the discussion. I still haven't seen anyexplanation as to how the cross is connected to our overcoming from you, other than the idea that the cross makes us into a body, whatever that means. You haven't explained what that means either. What does it mean to be "attached to the body of Christ"? I don't see how any of what you are writing puts God in a positive light. What is He expecting from us? That we accept the idea that by the cross a body was made, even though we didn't exist, and this should somehow result in something postive from us? I don't understand why you would think this would make more sense than the idea that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should have everlasting life. *This* makes sense! Here's the formula: 1. God loves. 2.God gives His Son. 3. We believe, and receive eternal life. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 This is a good obversation. Something happened which had an impact on world history, similar to the cross. And there is no doubt that the cross is the focal point of salvation history. An eloquent statement from the Spirit of Prophecy states that there is a crimson thread going from Genesis to Revelation. The story of the Great Controversy is the story of the cross. But just what is it that happened at the cross? Wherein does the cross find its power? To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (The Desire of Ages 758) The cross had significance for not only us, but the whole universe. Jesus said, "if I be lifted up, I will draw all unto me" (not simply "all men", but all). And He exactly did that, by fashioning Jews and Gentiles into His Body on the cross. You now believe it? The power of the cross is in what it reveals. It reveals the truth about God, about sin, about ourselves, about Satan. Jesus said, "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Your thought regarding the lunar landing is that regardless of whether we know about, it still happened. Our ignorance does not change history or reality. And the same thing is true regarding the cross; our ignorance does not changed what happened, nor its significance. So what happened, and what is the significance of the cross? Again, it is in what it revealed, most importantly about God. This is the mystery which was hidden from times past, hidden in the sense that it had not yet been fully revealed. But now it has been, and we have the job, as Christ's ambassadors, as though Christ were speaking through us, to tell others of the story of redemption, and give them the message, "Now you be reconciled to God." And what more did the cross reveal? That both Jews and Gentiles were fashioned into the Body of Christ on the cross and that we now all are part of the Body of Christ and hence in equal footing before God. Again, goodbye to holier-than-thou attitude where one says to another, "I had been reconciled because I believed", stopping short from saying "I am better off than you are". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Me: Again, your idea that somehow a body by the cross which includes people who don't exist seems like some sort of metaphysical assertion which has not bearing on anyone's actual life. How exactly was I attached to a body 2,000 years ago when I didn't exist? Samie: In EXACTLY the same way God chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5) and saved us by His grace given to us through Christ BEFORE time began (2 Tim 1:9-10). And I have cited this time and again. This is no way the same thing. God's choosing us is a description of God's character. You're misreading this text if you think it's saying that we were saved before we existed. That obviously wouldn't make sense. If there's two ways to interpret a text, and one way involves having to believe something which doesn't make sense (e.g. God did something involving people who didn't exist), and one which doesn't, why not go with the way that doesn't? Especially if the way that involves having to believe something which doesn't make sense leads you the conclusion that Bible writers needed to be corrected. Seriously! Consider the alternatives. 1.a.You are correct in your idea.b.God did something regarding people who didn't exist which is important.c.John needed to be corrected, because he didn't agree with Samie's idea. 2.a.You are incorrect in your idea.b.God did something important invovilng people who actually existed.c.What Paul wrote agrees with what John wrote, and no ispired writer needs to be correct. Which of these scenarios is more likely? The fact that your idea leads to the rejection of Scripture should be a siren that there's something wrong with the idea. Also there's another problem with the idea. If God could do something to reconcile us, then that would imply that the action necessary for reconciliation was something necessary on God's side. This would have to be the case, since He is the only party who exists at the time. But *we* are the ones who are enemies in our minds, alienated from God. *We* are the ones who need to do something! We need to make an action in order to be reconcile; we need to repent; we need to be believe. The idea, in addition to not making sense because it requires acts to be performed involving parties who do not exist, also doesn't make sense from the standpoint of what "reconciliation" means as a word. 7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: I doubt it. I don't think it really means anything. (I mean the phrase "we were attached to the body of Christ at the cross). Samie: It was Paul who said in Eph 2 that both Jews and Gentiles were fashioned into one body when a new man was created at the cross to reconcile them both to God. You should quote Paul. Paul is not saying the same thing you are. Paul is not in disagreement with John. All are in the same equal footing before God. Goodbye to holier-than-thou attitude, an attitude again reared up by those who call themselves the "believers". This is an interesting idea worth discussion. I think you've hit on something here, but not for the same reason you are thinking. Perhaps you'd like to start a thread to discuss it. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 And He exactly did that, by fashioning Jews and Gentiles into His Body on the cross. You now believe it? I've asked you several times to explain what this means. You should be able to explain your idea. I've suggested all you would be able to do is to repeat yourself, and so far, this is what you're doing. On the other hand, I've been able to explain how I understand the Gospel in a way that make sense, using paragraphs, with words and sentences. Can you do the same? Explain what your idea is using other words, in complete paragraphs. The power of the cross is in what it reveals. It reveals the truth about God, about sin, about ourselves, about Satan. Jesus said, "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Your thought regarding the lunar landing is that regardless of whether we know about, it still happened. Our ignorance does not change history or reality. And the same thing is true regarding the cross; our ignorance does not changed what happened, nor its significance. So what happened, and what is the significance of the cross? Again, it is in what it revealed, most importantly about God. This is the mystery which was hidden from times past, hidden in the sense that it had not yet been fully revealed. But now it has been, and we have the job, as Christ's ambassadors, as though Christ were speaking through us, to tell others of the story of redemption, and give them the message, "Now you be reconciled to God." And what more did the cross reveal? Why we would need more than what was mentioned? And how could these things possibly not be more important than what you are talking about? I'm suggesting the cross reveals the truth about:1.God2.Sin3.Satan4.Ourselves. Your suggesting it reveals a metaphysical truth that's incomprehensible, that God somehow attached being who didn't exist to a body -- what does this even mean? That both Jews and Gentiles were fashioned into the Body of Christ on the cross and that we now all are part of the Body of Christ and hence in equal footing before God. Again, goodbye to holier-than-thou attitude where one says to another, "I had been reconciled because I believed", stopping short from saying "I am better off than you are". Of course it's true that we all have an equal footing before God. The ground is level at the cross. This is a common idea among Christians. It rests upon an understanding of God's grace, and His character. Many Christians believe this. Paul said in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave of freeman. However, this is in the context of believing in Christ, as you can see by looking at Galatians 3 where he talks about this. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Of course it's true that we all have an equal footing before God. The ground is level at the cross. This is a common idea among Christians. It rests upon an understanding of God's grace, and His character. Many Christians believe this. Yet the many Christians who believe in equal footing before God of all men, believe just like you that Christians are better off in God's sight than non-Christians. They still are not able to comprehend how by His death on the cross, the Lord has broken down the wall that separated Jews from Gentiles - the two groups in the world that time. They could not understand how the two groups were made into one body at the cross to reconcile them both to God. NAS Ephesians 2:14-16 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. Yes, by what He did, we are all part of ONE BODY, His Body. No dividing wall now separates Jews from Gentiles, Christians from non-Christians. Despite this, many Christians still retain the dividing wall in their hearts and minds by considering themselves better off in God's sight than non-Christians. Holier-than-thou-attitude of the modern Pharisees. They reason out, as you do, that only believers are part of that One Body. They seem to completely forget that when the Savior died on the cross the Body was with Him, and when He resurrected the Body was resurrected together with Him, and that was when NO ONE was yet called a Christian believer. NAS Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) They reason out that the phrase "made us alive together with Christ " actually means "made us alive one by one as each one believes in Christ". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Yet the many Christians who believe in equal footing before God of all men, believe just like you that Christians are better off in God's sight than non-Christians. You don't think Christians are better off than non-Christians? Are you a Christian? (<- rhetorical question) If so, why? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 They still are not able to comprehend how by His death on the cross, the Lord has broken down the wall that separated Jews from Gentiles - the two groups in the world that time. They could not understand how the two groups were made into one body at the cross to reconcile them both to God. Does this mean anything? I've been asking you for some time now to explain what this means in other words, and not simply repeat what you're saying, but so far, you haven't been able to do so. If you can't explain what something means, it's like a magic number. You might as well say that you need to believe in pi. For example, let's discuss reconciliation. I'll use A. T. Jones' argument. He said that if I'm made at you, and you're mad at me, that Paul didn't waste any time saying we should make up with each other, but that, by the cross, we should be reconciled to God, and, being reconciled to God, we would be reconciled to each other. Now this is simple to understand, and to express in other words, and it makes perfect sense. To reconcile means to restore friendly relations between. What do you think reconcile means? How can friendly relations be restored between parties who don't exist? Why would believing that friendly relations were restored between two parties who didn't exist be helpful to me in some way? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 NAS Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) They reason out that the phrase "made us alive together with Christ " actually means "made us alive one by one as each one believes in Christ". Of course that's what it means. It could hardly mean that people who didn't exist were made alive, since they're not even dead. A more fruitful approach would be to ask why did Paul use the word συνεζωοποίησεν, which is translated "together with Christ". Your idea doesn't fit with the context (besides not making sense; after all, how can people who don't exist be "made alive"?), since it talks living according to the flesh, practicing sin, etc. So the context is clear that Paul is addressing believers who used to walk in a certain way (according to the flesh), but now, having been saved by grace (just like people today are saved by grace when they believe in Christ), no long walk in such a way. So the context, and common sense, argues for an interpretation which has Paul speaking to believers who exist as of the time of his writing, as opposed to people, whether believers or not, who did not exist at the time of his writing. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Does this mean anything? I've been asking you for some time now to explain what this means in other words, and not simply repeat what you're saying, but so far, you haven't been able to do so. If you can't explain what something means, it's like a magic number. You might as well say that you need to believe in pi. I had been explaining and you keep on not understanding. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and it seems like you cannot discern them yet. Not comparing myself with Einstein, but of what benefit will it be to a first grader if Einstein explains to him the theory of relativity? If you cannot discern that God reconciled us to Himself by the death of His Son, because you and I were not yet then in existence, can you comprehend how God was able to choose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, before Adam was created? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Of course that's what it means. It could hardly mean that people who didn't exist were made alive, since they're not even dead. A more fruitful approach would be to ask why did Paul use the word συνεζωοποίησεν, which is translated "together with Christ". συνεζωοποίησεν verb indicative aorist active 3rd person singular from suzwopoie,w which means "to make alive together with". If God has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world (and that's long before we existed, and so tells us we ALREADY were existing in His mind Who calls those things that are not as though they are), can He Whose infinite existence is far beyond the bounds of human space-time continuum, not able to make us spiritually alive together with His Son, before our existence? But then again, this is spiritual and need to be spiritually discerned. And as I have observed, you seem to cannot yet comprehend spiritual things like being made alive together with Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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