Wingnut Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Samie Regular Christianity tells people to "Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus.....and you shall be saved". You would tell people to "????????????????????.... and you shall stay saved". What do you tell folks to DO if anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 Samie Regular Christianity tells people to "Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus.....and you shall be saved". You would tell people to "????????????????????.... and you shall stay saved". What do you tell folks to DO if anything? Overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21) because overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) How can you overcome evil with good without repentance? Or believing in Christ? Edited October 25, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 How can you overcome evil with good without repentance? Or believing in Christ? Repentance is overcoming evil with good. Repentance (Greek meta,noia) is change of mind. Whereas one decides to do evil, he changes his mind and does what is good. Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Repentance is overcoming evil with good. Repentance (Greek meta,noia) is change of mind. Whereas one decides to do evil, he changes his mind and does what is good. Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief. Repentance is change of mind, which you wrote in the second sentence. The second sentence is correct. The first one is not. You could say that a change of mind can lead to overcoming evil with good, and that would be true. It's also true that it's not possible to overcome evil with good without repentance, but these are two different things. The key point here is that in order to overcome evil with good, repentance is necessary. Ok, given that repentance means a change of mind, what is the change of mind regarding? Many things are involved, but the most of important regards who God is; that is, the character of God. This is because from our concept of who God is flows our ethical thoughts and behaviors. It is absolutely impossible to overcome evil with good if our concept of God is no good, because what good is must be understood in terms of who God is. And similarly with evil. The Gospel is that "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father". It is this truth that leads to repentance, the change of mind which makes overcoming evil with good a possibility. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. To say that believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief is a tautology which doesn't help understand what believing entails. The story in Luke 7 gives a good understanding of what believing entails, where the woman spent a year's wages on perfume to anoint Christ, washed His feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair. Believing involves appreciation/thankfulness/gratitude, such as the woman displayed, whereupon Christ responded that her believing had saved her. Also John 3:16, and the preceding verses, form a good explanation of what believing entails. God so loved that He gave His Son. That was God's part. Our part is to receive that which God has given, to "believe on His name", as John puts it: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12 Edited October 25, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 Traditional Christianity offers salvation by believing in Christ. I don’t offer salvation. I am bringing the good news of salvation that God through Christ & Him Crucified, has saved us all – Adam & Eve and all their descendants! BUT He Who so loved us does not violate our freewill, and we can still decide and refuse to live with Him throughout eternity by NOT overcoming evil with good. Traditional Christianity portrays God as a father who upon seeing his children drowning puts out a raft and tells his children to go to the raft for safety. Those who refuse to go, along with those who did not hear his instructions, are left to drown while the father pitifully looks at them drowning. I portray God as a father who placed all His children aboard the raft in safety. Those who decide to leave the raft may do so at their own risk. How does the brand of gospel you preach portray our Father in heaven? What brand of gospel do you think Jesus wanted preached to the world before He returns? Is that the brand of gospel you now preach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 How does the brand of gospel you preach portray our Father in heaven? What brand of gospel do you think Jesus wanted preached to the world before He returns? Is that the brand of gospel do you now preach? What I believe is the essence of the Gospel is: "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." I think, to the extent, that I understand and believe the truth that Jesus has revealed, this is the Gospel that Jesus wanted preached, and is the same Gospel He Himself preached, both by words and deeds. To put it another way, to preach the Gospel that Jesus wants preached is to preach the Gospel that Jesus preached, which is that Jesus Christ is the exact representation of the Father. This is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 What I believe is the essence of the Gospel is: "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." I think, to the extent, that I understand and believe the truth that Jesus has revealed, this is the Gospel that Jesus wanted preached, and is the same Gospel He Himself preached, both by words and deeds. To put it another way, to preach the Gospel that Jesus wants preached is to preach the Gospel that Jesus preached, which is that Jesus Christ is the exact representation of the Father. This is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. It then follows from your post that the gospel Christ wanted preached before He returns is one that does not put His Father in a bad light. And I think the brand of gospel popularly being preached portrays the Father "as a father who upon seeing his children drowning puts out a raft and tells his children to go to the raft for safety. Those who refuse to go, along with those who did not hear his instructions, are left to drown while the father pitifully looks at them drowning." This does not quite aptly describe the agape love of the Father. This is why I am offering another brand. One that describes our God the Father "as a father who placed all his children aboard the raft in safety. Those who decide to leave the raft may do so at their own risk." Which of the two brands described above is the brand of gospel you now preach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 It then follows from your post that the gospel Christ wanted preached before He returns is one that does not put His Father in a bad light. And I think the brand of gospel popularly being preached portrays the Father "as a father who upon seeing his children drowning puts out a raft and tells his children to go to the raft for safety. Those who refuse to go, along with those who did not hear his instructions, are left to drown while the father pitifully looks at them drowning." This does not quite aptly describe the agape love of the Father. This is why I am offering another brand. One that describes our God the Father "as a father who placed all his children aboard the raft in safety. Those who decide to leave the raft may do so at their own risk." Which of the two brands described above is the brand of gospel you now preach? Can you offer the brand you want to offer without throwing away Scripture? (such as 1 John 1:9 and John 1:12) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 It then follows from your post that the gospel Christ wanted preached before He returns is one that does not put His Father in a bad light. And I think the brand of gospel popularly being preached portrays the Father "as a father who upon seeing his children drowning puts out a raft and tells his children to go to the raft for safety. Those who refuse to go, along with those who did not hear his instructions, are left to drown while the father pitifully looks at them drowning." This does not quite aptly describe the agape love of the Father. This is why I am offering another brand. One that describes our God the Father "as a father who placed all his children aboard the raft in safety. Those who decide to leave the raft may do so at their own risk." Which of the two brands described above is the brand of gospel you now preach? In regard to your question, the second option is much closer to what I believe than the first. I put it slightly differently, like this. There's a bus full of passengers about to go off a cliff. A person (Christ) gives His life to present the bus from going over. Now each person is free to choose whether they want to go off the cliff or not. To continue the analogy, the love of God shining from the cross is leading each one to repentance. If the person does not resist, he will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins. If he refuses to respond, he is choosing to jump off the cliff. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 3 talks about how we must be born again. John 1 (quoted above) also brings out the importance of being born from above, so that we may become "sons of God." This happens by faith, when we receive Christ (as explained in verse 12). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Samie I have carefully read your replies to see what part Christ plays in us overcoming. To most Christians, His role is central. (..Christ i us, the hope of glory.. Col 1:12) So far in your replies, I have not seen His role explained. Has Christ already played His part by being slain from the foundation of the world, and being slain in 31-33AD? Or does He still play a central role today? 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Samie I have carefully read your replies to see what part Christ plays in us overcoming. To most Christians, His role is central. (..Christ i us, the hope of glory.. Col 1:12) So far in your replies, I have not seen His role explained. Has Christ already played His part by being slain from the foundation of the world, and being slain in 31-33AD? Or does He still play a central role today? He had been playing the CENTRAL role ever since. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, by whose death we live, and by whose stripes we were healed. Being made part of His Body, we are attached to Him. And attached to Him Who is our Strength, we have His Power to overcome evil. For apart from Him, He said, we can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 In regard to your question, the second option is much closer to what I believe than the first. I put it slightly differently, like this. There's a bus full of passengers about to go off a cliff. A person (Christ) gives His life to present the bus from going over. Now each person is free to choose whether they want to go off the cliff or not. To continue the analogy, the love of God shining from the cross is leading each one to repentance. If the person does not resist, he will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins. If he refuses to respond, he is choosing to jump off the cliff. Relative to God-being-a-good-father analogy, how does your analogy portray our Father in heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Relative to God-being-a-good-father analogy, how does your analogy portray our Father in heaven? This is a great question! Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father". The enemy (Satan) had misrepresented God's character. It was in this way that he caused the fall of man and the fall of angels. As John 1:18 puts it, no one has seen God at any time; His only Son, who knew Him best, He has shown us what God is really like. Basically everything Christ did was all about revealing the Father. All the healing, the forgiving of others, the mercy and compassion, the self-sacrificing love, especially revealed at the cross, where He, in His own mind, exchanged His eternal life for our benefit -- all of these things that Jesus said and did were for the purpose of revealing the Father. I am favor of the idea that there is a default setting of salvation, like the bus analogy. That is, there are many who feel like you don't have to do anything to be lost. I agree with the idea that one must work to be lost; one must continually exercise unbelief, and fight against God, resisting/rejecting/refusing the love of God shining from the cross leading to the foot of the cross. However, having said this, Scripture is clear that there is a role for us to play in responding, which leads to repentance and faith in Christ, without which we are without hope. Are only hope is in Christ, which, as John 1:12 explains it, means to receive Him, to believe on His name. He stands at the door and knocks. We need to let Him in so He will come in and sup with us. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 He had been playing the CENTRAL role ever since. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, by whose death we live, and by whose stripes we were healed. Being made part of His Body, we are attached to Him. And attached to Him Who is our Strength, we have His Power to overcome evil. For apart from Him, He said, we can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). Can someone live forever who has not heard of Jesus? If so, how is this person "made part of His Body,..attached to Him"? Or were they made part of Him at the foundation of the world, when their names were written in the BOL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 He had been playing the CENTRAL role ever since. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, by whose death we live, and by whose stripes we were healed. Being made part of His Body, we are attached to Him. And attached to Him Who is our Strength, we have His Power to overcome evil. For apart from Him, He said, we can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5). What do you mean we are attached to Him? 1 Cor. 12 makes it clear that the body of Christ consists of believers. For example: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. and more: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Given that the body of Christ consists of believers, as shown here, it makes sense to say that we become members of the body of Christ when we believe in Christ and are justified by faith. It's clear what the role of the cross is in such an operation, and Eph. 2 makes perfect sense in this context (we are saved by grace through faith; not walking dead in sins and trespasses as we did before believing in Christ). How does 1 Cor. 12 fit in with your idea? That is, since the body of Christ consists of believers per Paul in 1 Cor. 2, how could it consist of unbelievers in Eph. 2? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Can someone live forever who has not heard of Jesus? If so, how is this person "made part of His Body,..attached to Him"? Or were they made part of Him at the foundation of the world, when their names were written in the BOL? Yes, that is correct. They, just like the rest of us, contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord, were made part of Him at the foundation of the world and their names written in the BOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 This is a great question! Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father". The enemy (Satan) had misrepresented God's character. It was in this way that he caused the fall of man and the fall of angels. As John 1:18 puts it, no one has seen God at any time; His only Son, who knew Him best, He has shown us what God is really like. Basically everything Christ did was all about revealing the Father. All the healing, the forgiving of others, the mercy and compassion, the self-sacrificing love, especially revealed at the cross, where He, in His own mind, exchanged His eternal life for our benefit -- all of these things that Jesus said and did were for the purpose of revealing the Father. I am favor of the idea that there is a default setting of salvation, like the bus analogy. That is, there are many who feel like you don't have to do anything to be lost. I agree with the idea that one must work to be lost; one must continually exercise unbelief, and fight against God, resisting/rejecting/refusing the love of God shining from the cross leading to the foot of the cross. However, having said this, Scripture is clear that there is a role for us to play in responding, which leads to repentance and faith in Christ, without which we are without hope. Are only hope is in Christ, which, as John 1:12 explains it, means to receive Him, to believe on His name. He stands at the door and knocks. We need to let Him in so He will come in and sup with us. I think the default setting of salvation of traditional Christianity portrays God the Father as “a father who upon seeing his children drowning puts out a raft and tells his children to go to the raft for safety. Those who refuse to go, along with those who did not hear his instructions, are left to drown while the father pitifully looks at them drowning.” Do you think the portrayal above aptly reflects the way the gospel being popularly preached – believe first to be saved - portrays our Father in heaven? If it does not, can you explain why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Yes, that is correct. They, just like the rest of us, contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord, were made part of Him at the foundation of the world and their names written in the BOL. So Buddists, Muslims, Christians, and head-hunters from Papua-New Guinea who have never heard of Christ are all equally saved to live forever, just so long as they "overcome" in some way? What do they have to do to get out of the life-raft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I think the default setting of salvation of traditional Christianity portrays God the Father as “a father who upon seeing his children drowning puts out a raft and tells his children to go to the raft for safety. Those who refuse to go, along with those who did not hear his instructions, are left to drown while the father pitifully looks at them drowning.” Do you think the portrayal above aptly reflects the way the gospel being popularly preached – believe first to be saved - portrays our Father in heaven? If it does not, can you explain why? I don't think this analogy is confronting the issue. The Scripture tells us that we are "enemies in our own mind" and "alienated" from God. We need to be brought into harmony with God, and for this to happen, Christ is necessary; He must be preached, and hence the message: 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. There needs to be a way of turning enemies into friends, and the way of doing this is by presenting Christ, who said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." As the truth of the Father is made known to the soul, that God so loved that He gave His Son, we may be brought back to God, and our enmity is turned to friendship. I don't believe the Gospel as it is generally presented does not emphasize God's goodness as represented by Jesus Christ. Also the idea that God has taken the initiative in the Plan of Salvation is often not presented or understood. In order to be lost, one must refuse to repent, refuse to respond to the light shining from the cross. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Samie, I don't see how your idea conforms to 1 Cor. 12, which presents the body of Christ as consisting of believers. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 So Buddists, Muslims, Christians, and head-hunters from Papua-New Guinea who have never heard of Christ are all equally saved to live forever, just so long as they "overcome" in some way? Yes, I believe so. It's God through Christ Who ultimately decides who the overcomers are, and they will not be blotted out from the BOL. What do they have to do to get out of the life-raft? It's Christ Himself Who will remove the non-overcomers from the life-raft. He will blot them out from the BOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 I don't think this analogy is confronting the issue. The Scripture tells us that we are "enemies in our own mind" and "alienated" from God. We need to be brought into harmony with God, and for this to happen, Christ is necessary; He must be preached, and hence the message: There needs to be a way of turning enemies into friends, and the way of doing this is by presenting Christ, who said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." As the truth of the Father is made known to the soul, that God so loved that He gave His Son, we may be brought back to God, and our enmity is turned to friendship. I don't believe the Gospel as it is generally presented does not emphasize God's goodness as represented by Jesus Christ. Also the idea that God has taken the initiative in the Plan of Salvation is often not presented or understood. In order to be lost, one must refuse to repent, refuse to respond to the light shining from the cross. Are you saying man is born NOT in the lost condition? Because if man is born in the lost condition, then his refusal to repent did not change his initial condition - he was born lost anyway. There is no neutral zone: it's either one is in the saved condition or in the unsaved or lost condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 So Buddists, Muslims, Christians, and head-hunters from Papua-New Guinea who have never heard of Christ are all equally saved to live forever, just so long as they "overcome" in some way? What do they have to do to get out of the life-raft? …16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.....James 4 …20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.....2 Corinthians 5 There is info in the SoP pointing out there will be those who have never heard the name of Jesus who will nevertheless, enter the Kingdom. Ignorance will not keep us out of the Kingdom. Only determination to do that which we know to be wrong for selfish purposes. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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