LifeHiscost Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 …16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.....James 4 …20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.....2 Corinthians 5 There is info in the SoP pointing out there will be those who have never heard the name of Jesus who will nevertheless, enter the Kingdom. Ignorance will not keep us out of the Kingdom. Only determination to do that which we know to be wrong for selfish purposes.... God is Love! Jesus saves! 39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40 God is Love! Jesus saves! . Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Are you saying man is born NOT in the lost condition? Because if man is born in the lost condition, then his refusal to repent did not change his initial condition - he was born lost anyway. There is no neutral zone: it's either one is in the saved condition or in the unsaved or lost condition. I think God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there, whether a baby or not. I think babies born to believing parents, in general, would be happy in heaven, and, in general, the reverse would be the case, but there very likely are exceptions. That is, some babies of non-believing parents would be happy in heaven, and if that's the case, God will take them there. What would cause a baby to be happy in heaven? It would have to be greatly dependent upon the influence of the parents. If it were as easy to save everyone as writing their names in a book, God could just write everybody's name in a book, and kill them before the age of accountability, and win the great controversy that way. When you talk about overcoming evil with good, let's not miss the key point. Overcoming evil with good is a symptom of one's faith in Christ. It is faith in Christ which results in overcoming good with evil. It is by grace, through faith, that we overcome good with evil, and God doesn't blot the names of such out of the book of life because they would be happy in heaven. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Samie, I don't see how your idea conforms to 1 Cor. 12, which presents the body of Christ as consisting of believers. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 27, 2015 Members Share Posted October 27, 2015 That's exactly correct LHC. EGW mentions this and the Bible verifies her!! James 4:17 is a great verse for that, and also I believe Paul talks about that too. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Samie, I don't see how your idea conforms to 1 Cor. 12, which presents the body of Christ as consisting of believers. I suggest you just open your spiritual eyes wider. If others were able to see it, why can't you? … There is info in the SoP pointing out there will be those who have never heard the name of Jesus who will nevertheless, enter the Kingdom. Ignorance will not keep us out of the Kingdom. Only determination to do that which we know to be wrong for selfish purposes. That's exactly correct LHC. EGW mentions this and the Bible verifies her!! James 4:17 is a great verse for that, and also I believe Paul talks about that too. I believe only those who are part of the Body of Christ will ever make it to heaven. And when there will be people in heaven who on earth did not hear the gospel message, that simply means the body of Christ is not composed of believers ONLY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) At least we know what everyone believes so we are not chasing our tails As I see it, Samie, phkrause and LifeHiscost believe one can enter the kingdom as non-Christians, say through having a clear conscience. Pnattmbtc and myself believe Christ is sending out invitations to a wedding feast/party, and only those who CHOOSE to go and who are allowed in by the Host will end up there. And I remember in the Sabbath study last month on evangelism reading a quote from Ellen indicating that she is inclined towards Samie's team. Rom 2:15 was what I figured she was referring to. Edited October 27, 2015 by Wingnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 I think God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there, whether a baby or not. I surmise that even those who thrive on stealing now will be happy in heaven since they don't have to steal for a living. I think babies born to believing parents, in general, would be happy in heaven, and, in general, the reverse would be the case, but there very likely are exceptions. That is, some babies of non-believing parents would be happy in heaven, and if that's the case, God will take them there. What would cause a baby to be happy in heaven? It would have to be greatly dependent upon the influence of the parents. I guess the influence exerted by non-believing parents upon children dying before the age of accountability would be negligible compared with the influence exerted by the angels who would be playing with them in heaven for periods much longer than the length of time these children lived on earth. If it were as easy to save everyone as writing their names in a book, God could just write everybody's name in a book, and kill them before the age of accountability, and win the great controversy that way. How could have He won when no battle was even fought? And why do you think God does not simply kill people right after they receive Christ since they are saved after they receive Christ as you teach? When you talk about overcoming evil with good, let's not miss the key point. Overcoming evil with good is a symptom of one's faith in Christ. It is faith in Christ which results in overcoming good with evil. It is by grace, through faith, that we overcome good with evil, and God doesn't blot the names of such out of the book of life because they would be happy in heaven. There is no question that people will be happy in heaven. As to overcoming, we can overcome because being part of the Body of Christ Who is our Strength, we have His Power to overcome evil. Many who lived before the cross overcame evil, not because they consciously knew about Christ, but because just like us, they were likewise empowered to overcome. And that power to overcome is Christ, the power of God (1 Cor 1:24). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 At least we know what everyone believes so we are not chasing our tails As I see it, Samie, phkrause and LifeHiscost believe one can enter the kingdom as non-Christians, say through having a clear conscience. Pnattmbtc and myself believe Christ is sending out invitations to a wedding feast/party, and only those who CHOOSE to go and who are allowed in by the Host will end up there. Our CHOOSING to go is simply overcoming the evil of deciding to remain with the devil and his host in this world. We were already chosen by both the Father and the Son (Eph 1:3-5; John 15:19). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 At least we know what everyone believes so we are not chasing our tails As I see it, Samie, phkrause and LifeHiscost believe one can enter the kingdom as non-Christians, say through having a clear conscience. Pnattmbtc and myself believe Christ is sending out invitations to a wedding feast/party, and only those who CHOOSE to go and who are allowed in by the Host will end up there. Did anyone who lived before the cross hear about the invitation? If so, how? phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 At least we know what everyone believes so we are not chasing our tails As I see it, Samie, phkrause and LifeHiscost believe one can enter the kingdom as non-Christians, say through having a clear conscience. Pnattmbtc and myself believe Christ is sending out invitations to a wedding feast/party, and only those who CHOOSE to go and who are allowed in by the Host will end up there. And I remember in the Sabbath study last month on evangelism reading a quote from Ellen indicating that she is inclined towards Samie's team. Rom 2:15 was what I figured she was referring to. We are waiting for you here, this side of the fence, brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Sorry to keep you waiting, but I was rereading "The Great Controversy" to see if I could find a clear statement one way or the other on what happens to those who lived before the cross, and far, far away from Jerusalem. A cursory skim reveals nothing. My personal belief is that "The rest of the dead" of Rev 20:5 refers mostly to those who never heard the voice of Christ at any time in this life. Like Ezek 37 describes, their bones are clothed with flesh and they are told to "Hear the Word of the Lord". They are given time (months, years??) to do so. Then Satan is released in the 8M. All those who have not heard and heeded the Word of the Lord go up to fight the Lord. Edited October 27, 2015 by Wingnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 There is no question that people will be happy in heaven. As to overcoming, we can overcome because being part of the Body of Christ Who is our Strength, we have His Power to overcome evil. Many who lived before the cross overcame evil, not because they consciously knew about Christ, but because just like us, they were likewise empowered to overcome. And that power to overcome is Christ, the power of God (1 Cor 1:24). [/quote] A baby in the womb is a little person. 5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines....Judges 13 If they are innocent from the womb, a God Who is Love will save the innocent, along with all those who are innocent as a result of having been cleansed with the blood of Jesus. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) I am new to Adventism, so I notice things in church which old timers are unaware of. For instance, when this topic came up last month, I could see that the church was divided as to what the "correct" answer is. From this I deduce that Ellen has not written extensively and definitively on this topic. What LifeHiscost just quoted is more or less what was in the lesson, and indicates which side of the fence Ellen leaned towards. We don't know in that quote whether she was thinking of OT Israelites who were ignorant of Christ, yet empowered by the Spirit of God. Edited October 27, 2015 by Wingnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 If it were true that we could enter His kingdom without a personal relationship with Christ, then why are Adventists always beating themselves up saying they are holding up the return of Christ by not preaching the Gospel in all the world? Samie's belief would imply that they could get to Heaven without the Gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 If they are innocent from the womb, a God Who is Love will save the innocent, along with all those who are innocent as a result of having been cleansed with the blood of Jesus. I agree with you that babies are born innocent. This is a lot better than believing they are born with a fallen nature making them automatically evil. Being innocent and being saved are different though. Only those Christ "knows" are His. And many claiming to "know" Him will be rejected because He says "I never knew you". "Know" is not head knowledge, but an intimate relationship (such as a husband "knowing" his wife). My belief is that man is born neutral, into a society which inclines them towards selfishness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 If it were true that we could enter His kingdom without a personal relationship with Christ, then why are Adventists always beating themselves up saying they are holding up the return of Christ by not preaching the Gospel in all the world? Samie's belief would imply that they could get to Heaven without the Gospel. Then you don't yet understand what I am saying. The embodiment of the Gospel is Jesus Christ. Without Jesus, no one gets to heaven. He is THE only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Great Controversy on p 488 describes a now repentant Adam being welcomed into the kingdom by the second "Adam". To me there is a group of folks who are damned, and Adam is among them, as is Judas, as are the Israelite elders who left Egypt during the Exodus, as are many of Capernaum who knew Christ personally, yet rejected him, as are the scribes and Pharisees of Christ's day who wilfully rejected Him for power reasons. I don't actually see Pilot as damned. Adam walked with Christ. He showed no evidence of repentance during the nearly 1000 years he lived. Enoch and Abel found salvation without the opportunities Adam had. Adam is to me the essence of unrepentant mankind. If Adam had not tried to excuse himself, but had done what David did, he may have been punished, but could have returned to intimacy with the Lord. This leads me to believe Adam and Eve were "fallen" long before the fall. They placed little value on their afternoon walks with God. They were more into each other and enjoying life, than they were into God. They were the first Laodiceans. So God released Satan to give them a little nudge to see which side of the fence they would choose. I don't believe Satan was in the garden with them from creation. Otherwise they would have asked God on their afternoon walk, "Who is this snake who seems to have a bad attitude towards you?". I believe Eve was meeting the snake for the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Then you don't yet understand what I am saying. The embodiment of the Gospel is Jesus Christ. Without Jesus, no one gets to heaven. He is THE only way. When I spoke of people getting to heaven without having personal knowledge about Christ, I was simply saying they just did not know that their being in heaven is also through Christ, THE only way. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Then you don't yet understand what I am saying. The embodiment of the Gospel is Jesus Christ. Without Jesus, no one gets to heaven. He is THE only way. Samie, you are a Christian so you are good with Christ. But you say non-Christians can enter His kingdom. I think I do understand what you are saying. Christ has done everything for humanity to save them. They don't even have to know (of) Him to be saved. If you are wrong on this, you will be OK, but they will not be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Samie, you are a Christian so you are good with Christ. But you say non-Christians can enter His kingdom. I think I do understand what you are saying. Christ has done everything for humanity to save them. They don't even have to know (of) Him to be saved. If you are wrong on this, you will be OK, but they will not be. If I am wrong on this, then I will not be OK. I will be held accountable for teaching what I know is a lie. But they will be OK since they believed they were taught the truth. But I know I stand on solid Biblical ground in this issue. It's a different story between one who simply believes what he had been taught and one who teaches others. And our Father is such a good Father that He only will allow a specific truth to be taught to one whose spiritual level of maturity is capable of absorbing the truth being taught and that this specific truth is for his best interest to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Samie, you have this reversed. Broad is the way that leads to salvation and one does not even have to find this way or enter it, because one is born on the way leading to eternal life. And few they be who happen to stumble off The Kings High Way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Samie, you have this reversed. Broad is the way that leads to salvation and one does not even have to find this way or enter it, because one is born on the way leading to eternal life. And few they be who happen to stumble off The Kings High Way. I doubt whether it occurred to you that there is blotting out of names from the BOL. The fact that the unrighteous is as the sands of the sea tells us billions have been, are being, and will be blotted out from the BOL. Overcoming is the name of the game. Everyone had been empowered and everyone has to decide: overcome evil with good and remain in the raft, or, be overcome of evil and be banished from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Sadly, only a few choose to overcome evil with good while many choose to be overcome of evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Sadly, only a few choose to overcome evil with good while many choose to be overcome of evil. Most Christians would say that the only way to overcome evil with good, is to have Christ indwelling in us through His Spirit. And some would say that Buddhists, Muslims, and Papua New-Guinea headhunters, while having a form of righteousness, lack any true righteousness. My guess is your reply would be that Christ lives and works in all people, irrespective of whether they believe in Him, or choose Him. My response to your (hypothetical) reply would be to do a concordance search for "believe" to see that folks have to believe on Him. And how shall they believe if they have not heard (of Him), Blessed are the feet of.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 If I am wrong on this, then I will not be OK. I will be held accountable for teaching what I know is a lie. But they will be OK since they believed they were taught the truth. But I know I stand on solid Biblical ground in this issue. It's a different story between one who simply believes what he had been taught and one who teaches others. And our Father is such a good Father that He only will allow a specific truth to be taught to one whose spiritual level of maturity is capable of absorbing the truth being taught and that this specific truth is for his best interest to know. My guess is that you became a Christian a long time ago believing that He was THE way, THE truth, THE life, THE only name given among men whereby we might be saved. I.e a traditional conversion. Your current belief came to you after pondering the fate of all those, seemingly damned souls, who never heard of Him. I think you are motivated by a noble cause, to vindicate God, and make Him sound fair. I think you should stay away from analogies like "lifeboats" since these are non-Biblical. Almost every parable that Christ gave seems to say the exact opposite to your life-raft parable. Scattering seeds is preaching to those who are lost, Invite to a wedding demanding a response, no automatic entry, grafted in implies they were outside, sheep and goats implies all are not his, build on Rock (there is only one Rock and that rock is not Buddha or Mohammed), you are rare like salt of earth (most are earth), light of world in darkness (most of world dark, not saved0, strait gate (majority not saved), kingdom is at hand (meaning it was not before), sheep in midst of wolves (world filled with wolves), come unto me.. (why the need to come if we are already there?), take my yoke (why take His yoke if already saved), he that is not with me is against me (seems exclude non-Christians), wheat and tares (them and us), net cast into sea (them and us, good and bad fishes), except ye be converted, and become as little children ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:3), meaning the default is you are not fit to enter till something changes in you etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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