Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I see the whole message of the Bible as being about faith in Jesus, and Jesus living in us believers. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me I read DA p638. Its not a lot of space devoted to such an important question, and only one scripture quoted viz 1 John 4:7 "Everyone that loveth is born of God". That could mean that a cannibal could enter the kingdom if he had love. Or it could mean that all who truly love, are those powered by the Holy Spirit enabling them to love. I ask what the Bible ALSO says, not just one scripture. Masses of scriptures point to a central role played by Christ in our salvation. To negate His importance by saying some are saved without even hearing of Him, negates all this IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I see the whole message of the Bible as being about faith in Jesus, and Jesus living in us believers. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me I read DA p638. Its not a lot of space devoted to such an important question, and only one scripture quoted viz 1 John 4:7 "Everyone that loveth is born of God". That could mean that a cannibal could enter the kingdom if he had love. Or it could mean that all who truly love, are those powered by the Holy Spirit enabling them to love. I ask what the Bible ALSO says, not just one scripture. Masses of scriptures point to a central role played by Christ in our salvation. To negate His importance by saying some are saved without even hearing of Him, negates all this IMO. How did Abraham hear of Christ? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I can understand however why Ellen would believe this ability of what we would call the "unsaved" to enter the kingdom. Because one cannot just ignore the vast majority of mankind who have lived and died, never having even heard of Christ. At least SOME theory is better than none. The little brother of the SDA movement, the Sabbath keeping Churches of God had a far better explanation I feel, viz. that those who never heard of Christ are among those 'rest of the dead" who live not till the 1000 years are past (Rev 20:5). They say this resurrection to physical life is described in Ezek 37. I see it also in Matt 10:15. How could it be BETTER for someone from Sodom in the Judgment? The only way I see is if the people of Sodom are resurrected with the people of Christ's town. They will find it easier to accept Christ than the people Christ grew up with who have already rejected Christ. And I see a symetry in the Bible. Adam lived ???? years in Eden before Satan was unleashed on him. Likewise those in the 8M will live probably as long as Adam was given to make a decision for Christ. Then Satan is released from the abyss to tempt all and lure them to surround the city of the saints. This is the destruction of Gog. Thus the Churches of God explained how everyone would get a chance to accept or reject Christ. Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 How did Abraham hear of Christ? Christ was the LORD of the OT who sat in a tent with Ab telling him he would have a son. Ab believed Christ, just as we do today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Christ was the LORD of the OT who sat in a tent with Ab telling him he would have a son. Ab believed Christ, just as we do today. Why would Abraham's case be different than anyone else? What I'm getting at is, God loves everyone as much as Abraham, and if He needed to preach Christ to save Abraham, wouldn't He do that for anyone else as well? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Here is what worries me.. Christ is EVERYTHING to us. We pray to him every morning and night. We think of him and talk of him on forums and to our friends. Our lifestyle is dictated by Christ, what we eat and drink. Our every action is moderated by our belief in Christ. Our hope is in Christ. Our hope and future is in Christ. We choose our families and friends based on Christ. Our finances are influenced heavily by Christ. We set aside one day a week for Christ. etc. etc. etc. BUT when it comes to others we quickly do a back-pedal and say, who even needs to have heard of Christ? They can get into the kingdom just being "good" humans. In so saying, we negate everything we are living. Everything we consider all-important, others will skip, and still be in the kingdom. This idea is NUTS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Here is what worries me.. Christ is EVERYTHING to us. We pray to him every morning and night. We think of him and talk of him on forums and to our friends. Our lifestyle is dictated by Christ, what we eat and drink. Our every action is moderated by our belief in Christ. Our hope is in Christ. Our hope and future is in Christ. We choose our families and friends based on Christ. Our finances are influenced heavily by Christ. We set aside one day a week for Christ. etc. etc. etc. BUT when it comes to others we quickly do a back-pedal and say, who even needs to have heard of Christ? They can get into the kingdom just being "good" humans. In so saying, we negate everything we are living. Everything we consider all-important, others will skip, and still be in the kingdom. This idea is NUTS!!! I wrote quite a bit above about this, but will write some more. It's a great question, and well worth thinking about. I'll come at this in a different way. First of all, the parable Christ told about the guy who joined at the last moment and got paid the same wage comes to mind. Ok, why do we need Christ? That's an important question to consider. For me, the most important thing that Christ did was to reveal the Father. "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." All of our ethical behavior derives from our perception of God, and that is dependent upon Christ. So we cannot overemphasize our need of Christ. How about others? They need Christ too! Everyone needs to be responding to the light they have, and not rejecting light that is being given to them. Jesus Christ is the true light which lighteth every man who comes into the world. John 1:9. So Christ is giving HImself, giving light, to all. There are many ways this happens, and we don't know everything that God is doing to accomplish this. But if we know something about Christ, it can only be helpful to others if we share Christ with them. It might be essential to their salvation. It might not be. We don't know. We don't need to know. It's enough to know that everyone needs Christ, and we should share what we know of Him to others, and if some can be saved by other means which don't involve us, we just go ahead and do what we know we should do, and leave that to God. I would certainly object to any idea that would lessen our imperative to share Christ. For all we know, our interaction with another could be what makes the difference. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Wingnut: In a sense, God is offering "choices" knowing what we will choose. Thus we don't REALLY have free will, only the illusion of it. Thus we don't REALLY have a choice whether to choose God or Satan, since it is scripted beforehand what we will choose. Many have the idea that there is such a thing as "the future" which in some sense exists, but we just can't see it. If this were the case then, as you pointed out here, our "choices" would be illusionary. I have a nice elegant proof that there is not such thing as "the future" (i.e. some one thing which must happen). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Many have the idea that there is such a thing as "the future" which in some sense exists, but we just can't see it. If this were the case then, as you pointed out here, our "choices" would be illusionary. I have a nice elegant proof that there is not such thing as "the future" (i.e. some one thing which must happen). I would like to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I would like to hear it. Proof by contradiction. Assume there is such a thing as "the future". In the case, God could commission an angel to write everything down in a book we'll call "The Book Of Everything". You are shown the book, and look in it, and the book says that at the time you are looking at it you would be looking at it. You decide to do the following: 1.Look at what the book says you are doing in an hour. If it says you are looking at it, you won't look at it. 2.If it says you aren't looking at it, you look at it. Since in either case you reach a contradiction, the initial assumption must be false. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 From Gen 1 to Rev 22 one consistent story is told. That story is of men of faith being pleasing to God. There are all the hero's of Heb 11. There is the nation that is called to be His people. Then there is the church and their Acts of faith. There are all His faithful Apostles and the faithful Christian martyrs, starting with Stephen. In the end-time there are the faithful 144000. The Bible is one long story praising every man of faith for his faith-walk with God. And then.... ignoring the whole theme of the Bible we say... ... all the unfaithful, all those who never had a personal relationship with God like EVERY relationship described in the Bible... Let's just let them all into the kingdom. Thus, we have negated the central theme, the only theme of the old and new Testaments. Who needs faith, who needs a personal relationship with God, who needs to believe, who needs the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give us righteousness? Seems like the whole theme of the Bible was pointless. It has just been overruled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Proof by contradiction. Assume there is such a thing as "the future". In the case, God could commission an angel to write everything down in a book we'll call "The Book Of Everything". You are shown the book, and look in it, and the book says that at the time you are looking at it you would be looking at it. You decide to do the following: 1.Look at what the book says you are doing in an hour. If it says you are looking at it, you won't look at it. 2.If it says you aren't looking at it, you look at it. Since in either case you reach a contradiction, the initial assumption must be false. Great point! And other mindbenders such as God wills all to be saved. But not all are saved. But God knew from the start who would not be saved. Therefore God should have said He willed SOME to be saved. On the other hand if the future is open ended and we really do have free will, then God can in all honesty will (wish for) all to be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Great point! And other mindbenders such as God wills all to be saved. But not all are saved. But God knew from the start who would not be saved. Therefore God should have said He willed SOME to be saved. On the other hand if the future is open ended and we really do have free will, then God can in all honesty will (wish for) all to be saved. Also if God foresees what He is doing, and there is such a thing as "the future", even He can't do something different, so His free will would be illusionary too. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 From Gen 1 to Rev 22 one consistent story is told. That story is of men of faith being pleasing to God. There are all the hero's of Heb 11. There is the nation that is called to be His people. Then there is the church and their Acts of faith. There are all His faithful Apostles and the faithful Christian martyrs, starting with Stephen. In the end-time there are the faithful 144000. The Bible is one long story praising every man of faith for his faith-walk with God. Agree. The walk of faith is what I call overcoming evil with good. And then.... ignoring the whole theme of the Bible we say... ... all the unfaithful, all those who never had a personal relationship with God like EVERY relationship described in the Bible... Let's just let them all into the kingdom. Non-overcomers will be blotted out from the BOL Thus, we have negated the central theme, the only theme of the old and new Testaments. Who needs faith, who needs a personal relationship with God, who needs to believe, who needs the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give us righteousness? Seems like the whole theme of the Bible was pointless. It has just been overruled. That’s better told to those who preach that all will ultimately make it to heaven no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Great point! And other mindbenders such as God wills all to be saved. But not all are saved. But God knew from the start who would not be saved. Therefore God should have said He willed SOME to be saved. On the other hand if the future is open ended and we really do have free will, then God can in all honesty will (wish for) all to be saved. Again, there are 3 tenses of salvation (which I also call the 3 dimensions of the gospel): past, present, future. God saved people through Christ; God is saving people through Christ; God will save people through Christ. In the past and present tenses, every man benefited and is benefiting. But in the future tense, only overcomers will finally make it to heaven; non-overcomers won't. In other words, God saved all, is saving all, but only overcomers ultimately will be saved. This is easily seen in being written in the BOL. All were written (hence all were saved); while alive, one's name is not blotted (hence being saved); when Christ returns, only those whose names were not blotted from the BOL (overcomers) will be taken to heaven (hence will be saved). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 That’s better told to those who preach that all will ultimately make it to heaven no matter what. What do you think people should be told? They will go to heaven unless they don't overcome evil with good? Two questions: 1.How do they do that? 2.Do we need the whole Bible for this? (seems like a lot of wasted space; i.e. what is the purpose of Scripture?) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Again, there are 3 tenses of salvation (which I also call the 3 dimensions of the gospel): past, present, future. God saved people through Christ; God is saving people through Christ; God will save people through Christ. In the past and present tenses, every man benefited and is benefiting. But in the future tense, only overcomers will finally make it to heaven; non-overcomers won't. In other words, God saved all, is saving all, but only overcomers ultimately will be saved. This is easily seen in being written in the BOL. All were written (hence all were saved); while alive, one's name is not blotted (hence being saved); when Christ returns, only those whose names were not blotted from the BOL (overcomers) will be taken to heaven (hence will be saved). What's the standard for overcoming? (i.e. how much overcoming is enough) How does on have assurance of salvation? Where does Christ fit into the overcoming? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 What do you think people should be told? I was responding to Wingnut’s post specifically the last portion which says: Thus, we have negated the central theme, the only theme of the old and new Testaments. Who needs faith, who needs a personal relationship with God, who needs to believe, who needs the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give us righteousness? Seems like the whole theme of the Bible was pointless. It has just been overruled. And so I replied “That’s better told to those who preach that all will ultimately make it to heaven no matter what.” Because I don’t preach what he enumerated in the last paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 27, 2015 Members Share Posted October 27, 2015 Evil angels did not die in the flood. They are reserved for the lake of fire (Matt 25:41), NOT reserved for the flood. Nothing can prevent them from intermarrying with human women again after the flood. Even Paul talked about the existence of these evil powers (Eph 6:12). Eph 6:12 For we are not struggling against human beings, but against the rulers, authorities and cosmic powers governing this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm. ???There is nowhere in that verse that Paul is saying anything about evil angels marrying humans!!!!! I don't buy that for one minute!!!!!! The only thing I agree with is evil angels did not die in the flood. Naomi 1 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 What's the standard for overcoming? (i.e. how much overcoming is enough) It is God Who knows the standard and decides who the overcomers are. What one is to do is simply overcome what he knows is evil that comes his way. How does on have assurance of salvation? His name had been written in the BOL because of Christ. As long as his name remains written there, he is heaven-bound. Where does Christ fit into the overcoming? Being part of His Body, one has His Power to overcome evil with good. Apart from Christ, man can do nothing; he cannot overcome evil with good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Eph 6:12 For we are not struggling against human beings, but against the rulers, authorities and cosmic powers governing this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm. ???There is nowhere in that verse that Paul is saying anything about evil angels marrying humans!!!!! I don't buy that for one minute!!!!!! Did I say Paul said evil angels married humans? I can't recall, if I really did. Here's my post: Evil angels did not die in the flood. They are reserved for the lake of fire (Matt 25:41), NOT reserved for the flood. Nothing can prevent them from intermarrying with human women again after the flood. Even Paul talked about the existence of these evil powers (Eph 6:12). I simply pointed out that Paul talked about the existence of evil angels in his time, not that he said anything about homo-aggelo intermarriage. Sorry if the way I wrote led you to view my post as pointing to that direction. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Samie, if you look at Wingnut's post, you'll notice it says, "8 hours ago, Samie said", and then it has the quote of what you said, so you don't need to remember what you wrote, you can just read what you wrote, in Wingnut's quote. "Nothing can prevent them from intermarrying with human women again after the flood."Even Paul talked about the existence of these evil powers (Eph 6:12). Edited October 27, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 What's the standard for overcoming? (i.e. how much overcoming is enough) It is God Who knows the standard and decides who the overcomers are. What one is to do is simply overcome what he knows is evil that comes his way. How does on have assurance of salvation? His name had been written in the BOL because of Christ. As long as his name remains written there, he is heaven-bound. Unless he's not overcoming, in which case he's more like "dead man walking" than "heaven-bound". Where does Christ fit into the overcoming? Being part of His Body, one has His Power to overcome evil with good. Apart from Christ, man can do nothing; he cannot overcome evil with good. What does this mean? Power how? What does being attached to the body have to do with having this power? Why was the cross necessary? Also, to be clear, you are saying *everybody* has this power, because everybody is attached to the body of Christ. So there's no need to believe in Christ in order to have the power to overcome. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth; this is what you've been saying: 1.All are attached to the body of Christ by the cross (Eph. 2). 2.Being attached to Christ, we have the power to overcome evil with good. This is an accurate representation of what you've been saying, correct? There's nothing here about believing in Christ! An unbeliever has has the power to overcome evil with good, and not be blotted out from the book of life, by your theory, with no need to believe in Christ! Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Samie is preaching a gospel that sounds to me very much like this.... All men, with or without being Christians can be good. They are all somehow God enabled to be good. They are all born good (in the life-raft) and they all have the god-given power to remain good. We cannot yet get from Samie what being "good" means. Being good certainly does not require belief in Jesus, though this is optional. There are good Muslims, Buddhists, and good atheists. All are by default heading to eternal life. Unless they do something really, really bad. We have not yet got from Samie what being "bad" looks like. Ask yourself, does this sound at all like the Gospel which you believe? Does this sound anything like the story of the Bible? The Bible story is that God is calling believers to Him with a very specific set of beliefs, These are not "good" by themselves or even when they are converted, (Samie's gospel leaves out conversion, and repentance, and baptism - becoming a new man - these are optional), But God and Christ impute their righteousness into those who believe on Them. And these few are kept safely and given eternal life at the return of Christ, not because they are good, But because they are friends of Christ. Every one will be in Christ's kingdom because they have chosen Him and His kingdom - not through being good. They are there because all, at one time or another enter into a covenant with Him (not by default), And God is not mean, He has a way of saving the vast majority of this present evil world later. That means will entail exactly the same process of belief in His Son, repentance, receiving the Spirit, overcoming, and enduring. Nobody will slip into Christ's kingdom who will not acknowledge Him as Saviour and Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 And Samie How does what you are saying differ from what New Age religion teaches, that there is latent good, and "god" inside all of us, we just have to bring it out, perhaps with a bit of yoga and meditation, or if you prefer, with a bit of Christ. We are all children of the Great Universal Good, we are all born spiritually connected to God, Some go further to say, We all ARE collectively God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.