Ben Carson is Seventh-day Adventist - is that NEWS?

[BobRyan]

Seems like every day over the past week I have seen a half dozen articles in the press about "what is a Seventh-day Adventist" or "what is Ben Carson's religion?".
Something like that.

Pretty interesting times.

I think it was in the 1970's when the SDA church was at about 4 million and the Southern Baptists were about 14.x Million.

Now - in January of this year Christianity Today points out that SDAs are around 18.5 Million and the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world. -
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...ts-can-ben-carson-church-stay-separatist.html

Prior to the mid 1960's there was a great deal of confusion in evangelical circles about the Seventh-day Adventist church. Walter Martin (founder of the Christian Research Institute) wrote a book on the subject of what is and is not a cult and determined that Seventh-day Adventist beliefs are orthodox Christianity on the key doctrines that define Christianity. Christianity Today named that the book it its "choice books" list for 1965 saying it was "about the best there is on the cults written with an eye to Christian missions" - according to the cover page to Martin's book.

But that media interest in the SDA church in January 2015 was not even a drop in the bucket compared to what we are seeing today.

(Maybe I should tell them that Sonya Carson used to visit my Sabbath School class in Maryland - where I taught for years.  

[BobRyan]

As for “What is a Seventh-day Adventist” start with “Seventh-day Baptist” (SDB) as the baseline and then describe the differences from there.

Like SDB Adventists believe in
The Triune Godhead – God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit,
66 books of the Bible
saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-10),
literal creation week (Ex 20:11, Gen 2:1-3),
literal resurrection of Christ (after the cross) and of the saints (in the future),
literal 2nd coming that is future.
Sabbath remains on Saturday

Like Protestants Adventists believe
· Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition,
· Historicist model of prophetic interpretation
· Ten Commandments included in the Moral Law of God binding on all mankind as stated in Eph 6:2, 1Cor 7:10, Mark 7:6-13, “Baptist Confession of Faith” sectn 19, and “Westminster Confession of Faith Sectn 19” – and Dies Domini

· Commandments of God are not editable Mark 7:6-13

Like Calvinists Adventists believe
Sinful nature – depravity of man Romans 3:9-18
Only the supernatural drawing of God can overcome it. John 6:44
God fully knows the future

[BobRyan]

Like Arminians Adventist believe
Free will – obtained via supernatural drawing of all mankind by God John 12:32
A person can lose salvation (Romans 11:17-23, Matt 18:32-33)
Christ died for the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2)

Like New Testament saints Adventist believe
Spiritual gifts – 1Cor 12:27-31
Prophetic messages – 2Peter 1:19-21 1Thess 5:19-22



Distinctives in Seventh-day Adventist Doctrine
Emphasis on pre-advent judgment Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14, 2Cor 5:10
Consistent Prophetic day-year for Daniel 9, Daniel 8, Daniel 7
Contiguous timeline for any/all given Bible prophetic timelines including Dan 9.
Ellen White is an example of one person in modern times who had the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy
Health message – including dietary laws of Acts 15 and Lev 11
Commandments of God are not editable Mark 7:6-13
Christ is our High Priest in Heaven Heb 8:1-6
And the earthly two phase ministry in OT is reflective of the Heavenly Sanctuary service with the most Holy Place phase in heaven having started in 1844.

No Halloween Ghosts, or praying to the dead
So then taking Matt 10:28 as it reads,
Taking 1Thess 4;13-18 as it reads
Taking John 11:7-14 as it reads
Ezek 18:4 – as it reads

End Time Events
Pre-Trib Rapture in Matt 24:29-31
Pre-Millennial 2nd coming in Rev 19:1 – Rev 20:5
Close of Probation before 7 last plagues – Rev 15:8, Rev 22:10-11
United States becomes World Superpower and has Christ like “Lamb Like” government/principles – Rev 13

All the world becomes more chaotic and sinful over time - and religious-freedom will be revoked in all nations before the end of time. Rev 13.

[phkrause]

Like I've mentioned in another thread, we as SDAs are now gonna be front and center. Something that God has wanted for quite sometime. There's no hiding anymore.

[BobRyan]

And I think questions are coming our way. An elder at a local church in my area was playing tennis with someone from CNN (I think it was CNN) and was asked to do an interview - they are interested because of the association with Ben Carson. I don't think that interview happened - but some people are speculating that some network people might show up at church or that they have contacted another church in this area for an interview.

 

In any case the bottom line questions "what is a Seventh-day Adventist" and "does it even matter" are fair game everyone reading the news stories in the past week to 10 days has been clued in that these questions are being asked. We have no excuse for not being ready to answer.

[JoeMo]

A couple of questions for Bob:

1. Since when do Protestants in general take a historisist view of prophetic interpretation?  At least in my circle, futurists FAR outnumber historicists.

2. Since when do SDA's believe in a pre-trib rapture?  I didn't think SDA's believed in a rapture ar all.  Some (like me) believe in a pre-wrath (as in pre-7 last plagues) rapture ...

[LifeHiscost]

21 hours ago, phkrause said:

Like I've mentioned in another thread, we as SDAs are now gonna be front and center. Something that God has wanted for quite sometime. There's no hiding anymore.

And if we're still living in the city and think we can just mingle among the population without drawing attention to ourselves, perhaps this will put that thought to rest.

http://news.yahoo.com/watch-uber-driver-pepper-spray-182417400.html

Hope y'all had a good week end.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Kevin H]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

A couple of questions for Bob:

1. Since when do Protestants in general take a historisist view of prophetic interpretation?  At least in my circle, futurists FAR outnumber historicists.

2. Since when do SDA's believe in a pre-trib rapture?  I didn't think SDA's believed in a rapture ar all.  Some (like me) believe in a pre-wrath (as in pre-7 last plagues) rapture ...

1. Until the middle of the 1800s Protestants tended to take the historicist view of interpretation. And futurism is taking a part of what the great historicist, Joachim of Flore had to say and instead of maintain the whole principles of Joachim as we do, they take some parts and move off into a whole new direction but it was still based on historism.

2. I'll let Bob answer this but my guess is  that was probably a miss print meaning to say "Post Tribulation" and seeing the "rapture" and not necessary meaning the secret rapture but the second coming. This has been a simple way to present us to our dispensationalist friends. But still has a lot of excess baggage.

 

[BobRyan]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

A couple of questions for Bob:

1. Since when do Protestants in general take a historisist view of prophetic interpretation?  At least in my circle, futurists FAR outnumber historicists.

Well those who deny the foundation principles of the Protestant Reformation are indeed easy enough to find in recent times but for over 350 years the historicist view was indeed "Protestant" by every measure. Just a fact of history

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

2. Since when do SDA's believe in a pre-trib rapture?  I didn't think SDA's believed in a rapture ar all.  Some (like me) believe in a pre-wrath (as in pre-7 last plagues) rapture ...

Pre-mill and post-trib rapture - I 'meant' to say.

[stinsonmarri]

Simply put it there are those who claim Adventist but do not have the faith of the message of Adventist. Ben Carson is going outside of the faith of Adventism and its original message. We have a right to vote our conscious but we are to render USA like Cesar and to render to ELOHIM the things that belongs to ELOHIM which obedient over USA and politics. 

Blessings!

 

[JoeMo]

I guess I just don't see how people can take an historicist view on escatology; especially when Daniels says:

"As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”^[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”  While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.  He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end." (Dan. 8:19-21)

and then later in Chapter 12 he says:
"But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. (verse 4) and “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end."  (verse 9).

5 times in Daniel the angel tells Daniel that his visions are about the end times.  I hardly think it is reasonable to assume that the end times began 2,500 years ago.

 

 

[BobRyan]

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I guess I just don't see how people can take an historicist view on escatology; especially when Daniels says:

"As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”^[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”  While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.  He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end." (Dan. 8:19-21)

and then later in Chapter 12 he says:
"But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. (verse 4) and “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end."  (verse 9).

5 times in Daniel the angel tells Daniel that his visions are about the end times. 

I hardly think it is reasonable to assume that the end times began 2,500 years ago

It does not make sense to claim that a timeline going from 400+ years before the cross - all the way to the 1840's did NOT reach to "the time of the end" - in terms of the age/history/time of sin and life on earth. Thus we are not living in the "Time of the end" even by the 6000 year short history of the earth - standard.

[Scuba]

In a quest for truth, you will stop at the SDA along the way but it won't be your final stop.

[Stan]

Some of the gullible fall into Shepard's Rod

[Scuba]

5 hours ago, Stan said:

Some of the gullible fall into Shepard's Rod

Shepard's Rod?

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes the Shepard's Rod.

It was a group that claimed the SDA Church was apostate.  It, for all practical purposes, fell out of existence a few years back.

NOTE:  Yes, there may formally be a few members that still carry on the name.  If so, they presently have no practical effect on the SDA Church today.

For more information see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidian_Seventh-day_Adventist

http://www.shepherds-rod-speaks.org/

http://www.sdadefend.com/WolvesinFleeces/rods_4.htm

 

[stinsonmarri]

I am so upset with Ben and his high and mindedness that I must take a stand. The first illogical thing he stated was about the pyramids and Joseph. This crazy idea that the pyramids was to store grain, this is unbelievable! If he would take the time to learn that the Hyksos were descendants of Shem from what we called today Asia minor. That truly were mixture of Arphaxad and Aram's children. Abraham came from Arphaxad through Eber but he lived with his uncle Aram's children known as the Chaldeans!

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. Gen 11:31  

This was  Syria that we know of today folk, that the Bible called Padanaram.

And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian. Gen 25:20

Abraham did not come from Ur of the Sumerian, these people were Hamitic or black and it is time that we start reading the Bible and not lies! Some of these same two group of people during the intermediate period moved into Egypt!  The Hyksos ruled their known capital called Avaris in the Eastern Delta. They also controlled the Nile Valley as far south as Hermopolis, but they never over took the entire land of Egypt. (1674-1567 BC). It during this time that Joseph came up and reign with these foreigners who were related, they were Semitic people! The Egyptians were looked up to by many different people who always copy their way of life. The famine was real but Joseph made these granaries for only the land occupied by the Hyksos! The Bible made it clear that the Egyptians took back all of their land.

 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. Ex 1:8

Moving on to Noah who was suppose to be an amateurs  over the professional builders of the Titanic. Once again we just do not get it. Noah was not an amateur, these people had 100% use of their brains. There were also giants and mighty men. 

And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah. Gen 4:21, 22  

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of ELOHIM came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Gen 6:4  

The son of ELOHIM were Seth children and not angels, who mixed with the corrupts daughters of Cain and violence that have never can be describe took over the earth and this violence has return today! Noah was chosen but Noah did not build the boat how dumb is Ben Carson when it comes to the Bible?

This boat was massive according to our measurements today, due to their size also the size of the animals. These were the genius that first dealt with DNA and procreated the dinosaurs that we could not do in a million years. ELOHIM wiped these creatures out. Even EGW stated that they made subhuman creatures. We think that mermaids and centaurs are a myth, think again!!! They tread where no men today could ever think to do, because we do have the brain usage that they had!

Ben Carson have disgrace ELOHIM, our faith and message by trampling it to the ground. He has made us look stupid! He has taken the gift that ELOHIM has given him to his head thinking he knows more than ELOHIM. He thinks he is called by ELOHIM but he is not, that is not how ELOHIM works  He thinks that his work is complex but to be the President of the USA is not! How ridiculous can he be, he has truly left ELOHIM as did Ahab of old! We have been warned not go the way of the heathens and Ben did not listen! 

Blessings!
 

[Stan]

The media is having to back far to dig up strange fires.  It would be interesting to find the back story to this.

[Unchained]

12 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I am so upset with Ben and his high and mindedness that I must take a stand. The first illogical thing he stated was about the pyramids and Joseph. This crazy idea that the pyramids was to store grain, this is unbelievable!

Do you have a source for Ben Carson saying he thought that the pyramids were intended for grain storage? Or was this something you heard him say yourself?

[pnattmbtc]

Yeah, I think Ben Carson must not be very bright.

[phkrause]

34 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Yeah, I think Ben Carson must not be very bright.

Huh!!

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

Do you have a source for Ben Carson saying he thought that the pyramids were intended for grain storage? Or was this something you heard him say yourself?

Yes, I did hear him on all the news channels, plus the sermon he did on this topic. Check it out yourself!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

[stinsonmarri]

On 11/3/2015, 7:42:18, BobRyan said:

It does not make sense to claim that a timeline going from 400+ years before the cross - all the way to the 1840's did NOT reach to "the time of the end" - in terms of the age/history/time of sin and life on earth. Thus we are not living in the "Time of the end" even by the 6000 year short history of the earth - standard.

Well it did and John the Revelator continue where Daniel left all. Here is another text that even most SDA have over looked in Daniel Chapter Seven:

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto HIM, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before HIM: the Judgment was set, and the books were opened.   I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.   As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Dan 7:10-12  

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against HIM that sat on the horse, and against HIS Army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  And the remnant were slain with the sword of HIM that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of HIS MOUTH: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Rev 19:19-21  

Both Daniel and John said the same thing, accept John gave more detail! The Bible is consistent and here more proof:

And I saw in THE RIGHT HAND of HIM that sat on the Throne a Book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, THE LION of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four cherubim, and in the midst of the elders, stood A LAMB as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are THE SEVEN SPIRITS ELOHIM sent forth into all the earth. And HE came and took the Book out of THE RIGHT HAND of HIM that sat upon the Throne.  And when HE had taken the Book, the four cherubim and four and twenty elders fell down before THE LAMB, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  And they sung a new song, saying, THOU art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for THOU wast slain, and hast redeemed us to ELOHIM THE FATHER by THY BLOOD out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  And hast made us unto our YAHWEH ELOHIM kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev 5:1, 2, 5-10  

I know most SDA believe that the Book and the seals deals with after YAHSHUA resurrection, but this do not make sense! The number seven mean completion or perfect. The whole world was being judge but the righteous or those who claim they were righteous were judge first. Beginning with Adam and Eve all who were righteous were sealed and remain in the Book of Life or put in the Book, all the way down to the end. Then those not in the Book of Life are judge for death. This have been the theme of the Bible from the beginning and John book is the end!

Happy Sabbath be bless!

[stinsonmarri]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

Huh!!

He isn't to bright when you think you know the Bible and you don't!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

lack of knowledge doesn't necessarily mean lack of intelligence...